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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3005525 08/28/19 06:38 PM
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Nashville’s median house cost is 3 times the median annual income. 1000 sq foot shotgun houses in the shadow of giant factory smokestacks cost $750K-1 mil. Then you have to compete with some seriously great musicians for some seriously shitty gigs. Considering you’ve lost your cold climate chops & your political leanings, I can’t think of anywhere except maybe Austin or The Florida Keys. Me, I’m still looking for “Tropical Denmark” 😃


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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3005526 08/28/19 06:41 PM
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Yeah, maybe you could move to a really cold place and just shock yourself into it, eh? laugh

SK's in Timmins, Piktor and myself here in Edmonton, all kinds of folks in Toronto/Montréal, and several other members in Scandinavia.


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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3005530 08/28/19 07:02 PM
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Netherlands [ Amsterdam] is calling.

The cold weather is a problem. Maybe global warming will solve that wink

Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3005534 08/28/19 07:07 PM
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Again, not recommending Stl due to your weather constraints, but I'll use it as an example to make a few points that might open up some ideas and consideration for other locations.

First, it's not just availability of gigs and pay per gig, but also cost of living, transportation, and access to nearby markets and diversity of industries. Consider what types of gigs you're willing to take and how far or how much you're willing to travel to get to them.

For the cost of a 400 sq foot apartment in Manhattan you can buy a 3000 sq ft house on a 1/4 acre lot in the St. Louis area. For as long as a commute would take in the L.A. area during rush hour to get to a gig outside the city, from St. Louis you could practically cover KC, Chicago, Indianapolis, Nashville, and Memphis.

Gig types: So around here there are a lot of seasonal factors along with things like nearby Lake of the Ozarks, etc. Musicians here may have a Tribute band that does arena and amphitheater size shows half a dozen times a year, a cover band that picks up summer concerts and festivals, or goes to the Lake for the weekend (local St. Louis bars get slow during the summer), maybe duo/trio gigs at the wineries, Cover band gigs at casinos year round, Lucrative bar band stuff between Thanksgiving and Christmas, Solo/Duo happy hour stuff in the winter, patios in the Summer, and possibly wedding band and private party gigs, which are busiest in the fall.

I'd imagine you could find a location drivable distance and less expensive where you could play San Francisco area as well as winery gigs, which unlike here, I would imagine are year round. Any place with casinos will generally have good paying gigs year round. Cruise ships are a good opportunity, so maybe living someplace like Miami where a lot of them depart/return would offer both a large local market along with easy access to the cruise ship gigs.

Just floating out there the idea that maybe some locations could have adjacent markets that may not be initially on your radar.


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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3005535 08/28/19 07:08 PM
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How about Cologne, Germany? 1m inhabitants, lots of college students, gay capital of Germany, vibrant free and experimental jazz scene but also lots of funk/soul/function gigs, media outlets galore, one of Europe's best professional radio big bands (at the moment lead by Bob Mintzer), excellent music college, close proximity to Belgium, the Netherlands, France (3 hour train ride to Paris). The visa process is bureaucratic (it's Germany, after all) but as an American you enjoy certain privileges (my wife is American). Lovely river Rhine. Housing is expensive af, but as most Germans rent instead of own, you don't have to put down serious cash right away.
Oh, and of course big touring acts pass through all the time.


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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3005537 08/28/19 07:10 PM
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CA has always had fluctuating population. economics, jobs, blah blah.

Folks move out all the time for whatever personal reason. But there are well to do families from other countries that find their way here.

Its a desirable place to live , even with the ' inconveniences ' .
[ which are manageable IMO].

There are keys to managing the massive housing cost and other costs

But I don't know if this is the forum to discuss that.

Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3005539 08/28/19 07:26 PM
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You can make a small fortune gigging in Los Angeles.
The first step is to start out with a large fortune...


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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3005565 08/28/19 11:27 PM
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Running out to a gig, but wanted to say a quick thank-you for all the input. Will reply properly later...

Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: MAJUSCULE] #3005569 08/29/19 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by MAJUSCULE
SK's in Timmins,


I don't believe he is anymore. Hopefully Steve won't mind me posting that.

Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3005570 08/29/19 12:08 AM
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Well, he at least spent a few years there without dying of frostbite laugh


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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Steve Nathan] #3005602 08/29/19 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Nathan
Me, I’m still looking for “Tropical Denmark” 😃
Check out Sydney.. a tropical San Francisco, it's awesome down there.


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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3005616 08/29/19 11:34 AM
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Montreal definitely doesn’t fit your weather requirements, but would tick most of the other boxes.

I have many friends who have moved to Berlin over the past decade and seem to really enjoy it, and are able to work without speaking German. It looks like a really vibrant scene but I don’t know the details on the ground. The benefit of Europe (as opposed to Canada) is that so many major cities are just a short train ride away. Antwerp to Cologne was around 2 hours by train.

Brazil’s social and political situation is - to put it mildly (and to not break forum rules) - a mess, but the music communities in Rio and São Paulo are really inspiring. Maybe not somewhere to live but maybe a place to visit consistently in order to reboot?


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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3005678 08/29/19 11:02 PM
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I know I'm going to get flack on this. I'm reading, go to this city, these three clubs are doing great. great musicians there. go to Europe, which in an earlier post from me, I stated I talked to someone who worked for Bose south of London, and asked him what was the music scene there. he told me the same thing here, not good at all. THERE IS NO PLACE, ANYWHERE WHERE A MUSICIAN CAN MAKE A GREAT LIVING. THOSE DAYS ARE LONG GONE. I got lucky all my life, maybe some talent, some luck. I always worked. recorded with a couple of national acts, which I did not make a dime from. but I feel so sorry when like my bass player tells me his brother's kids from New York City, are interested in music, plays piano, sax and sings and they are really good. want to go full time in music. hate to say, just dreamers. from the original post from NOLA asking where to move to make a good living playing music. stay there, you're not gonna find it better anywhere else.

Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: lsj] #3005697 08/30/19 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by lsj
From the original post from NOLA asking where to move to make a good living playing music. stay there, you're not gonna find it better anywhere else.


Truth.


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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3005698 08/30/19 01:28 AM
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Phoenix.

I can't count how many musicians have told me, "move to Phoenix, and you could have a steady gig any day you want." and the statistics don't lie. It's one of the fastest growing cities in America, a pretty low cost of living. Supposedly, there's lots of venues and a quickly growing weeknight scene, and less competition than one would expect. Very high demand. The only problem... you have to be in Phoenix.

Tho, to a certain degree, I agree with LSJ, it's neigh impossible to make a living as a musician. THANKFULLY, we don't play guitar. 90% of all musicians out there play some guitar, the competition is just unreal and quite silly. If you can keep a beat and have a drum kit, you'll have work knocking at your door. If you can sing decently for 3-hours straight, you've got a job. Keyboardists willing to play club music are like unicorns, I can't count how many jobs I've had to turn down. The pay always sucks, but it's still work. But I'll say again, thank GOD I'm not a guitarist or I'd never even get the chance.


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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: lsj] #3005699 08/30/19 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by lsj
I know I'm going to get flack on this. ... from the original post from NOLA asking where to move to make a good living playing music. stay there, you're not gonna find it better anywhere else.
No flack from me. I think this may actually be the best advice. You may be burnt out on where you are for non-musical reasons, and maybe the musical pastures might seem greener elsewhere, but you are making a living playing music in NOLA, moving away from that to try making a living in music somewhere else seems a risky proposition at best. If you are Mr. NOLA keys player and you leave, you may not be able to get back to where you once belonged.

Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: lsj] #3005700 08/30/19 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by lsj
I know I'm going to get flack on this. I'm reading, go to this city, these three clubs are doing great. great musicians there. go to Europe, which in an earlier post from me, I stated I talked to someone who worked for Bose south of London, and asked him what was the music scene there. he told me the same thing here, not good at all. THERE IS NO PLACE, ANYWHERE WHERE A MUSICIAN CAN MAKE A GREAT LIVING. THOSE DAYS ARE LONG GONE. I got lucky all my life, maybe some talent, some luck. I always worked. recorded with a couple of national acts, which I did not make a dime from. but I feel so sorry when like my bass player tells me his brother's kids from New York City, are interested in music, plays piano, sax and sings and they are really good. want to go full time in music. hate to say, just dreamers. from the original post from NOLA asking where to move to make a good living playing music. stay there, you're not gonna find it better anywhere else.


Sometimes the small cities are a better opportunity. When at the music school I studied and worked at in L.A. I remember some guys that after school tried to make a go of it in L.A., but all the competitoin and cost of living to too tough. They went back home and were making a good living playing music. Talkign to them in the big city like L.A. they were just one of many small fish trying to make it, but back at home they were the big fish in a tiny pond and had lots of work including recording and they were actually saving some money. So finding work might be easier in small town USA.

Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3005701 08/30/19 01:37 AM
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Oh, Honolulu isn't bad if you're clean. Cost of living is ridiculous, but the Reggae Scene is where the money is... and must of the die-hards are frankly doped up and unreliable, so if you can play a bubble and come to work on time, you can make money off tourists until the cows come home...

...then again, you have to live in Honolulu (not being ironic).


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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: lsj] #3005721 08/30/19 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by lsj
from the original post from NOLA asking where to move to make a good living playing music. stay there, you're not gonna find it better anywhere else.


Cannot disagree more. You should absolutely move to another location.
- sincerely, all the other NOLA piano players



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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: waygetter] #3005723 08/30/19 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by waygetter
Originally Posted by lsj
from the original post from NOLA asking where to move to make a good living playing music. stay there, you're not gonna find it better anywhere else.


Cannot disagree more. You should absolutely move to another location.
- signed, all the other NOLA piano players



Yeah that would probably make a lot of guys happy. wink

I know a few other guys - a guitarist, electric bass player and a drummer- that have moved to Minnesota, Phoenix and Ohio respectively. I don't know if they qualify as "big fish" but they appear to be doing well. But even then, I see they are supplementing gigs with teaching.

I see a better quality of life, for Josh and his wife, would be had in Ca. I don't know Josh well but I do see his posts on FB that indicate how he feels about current events and politics.

I wouldn't recommend just anyone that calls themselves "a musician" should come here and expect to carve out a career.. wink

However someone like Josh ( who can make a lot of music just playing solo) stands out, and I feel could make it happen, if him and his wife can weather the first year or two of getting established, and finding their niche.

Personally I'm of the mindset that if you're really unhappy, you change things. Whether it be only taking gigs you enjoy, or ones that don't totally make you want to blow your brains out at night afterwards. Or you make a major change such as a re-location. The clock is always ticking. Best to do it while you're still somewhat young, have the energy and drive. When you hit 50 and beyond, it gets harder - mentally and physically.

I feel if things don't work out elsewhere, you CAN go back to a place like New Orleans, and having the reputation that he does, pick right up where you left off. wink

Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3005740 08/30/19 01:39 PM
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Let me be clear, this is personal for me. I want Josh in the Bay Area so I can take lessons from him.

Let's also be clear, Josh is a special talent, one of the few who still plays New Orleans piano at a masters level. I can see that working in the Bay Area, and other places too. But it's not a generic skill. I'm sure he's got the generic skills as well, but he's going to thrive where he's appreciated for what makes him unique. There's a cultural aspect to that.


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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Adan] #3005742 08/30/19 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Adan
Let me be clear, this is personal for me. I want Josh in the Bay Area so I can take lessons from him.

Let's also be clear, Josh is a special talent, one of the few who still plays New Orleans piano at a masters level. I can see that working in the Bay Area, and other places too. But it's not a generic skill. I'm sure he's got the generic skills as well, but he's going to thrive where he's appreciated for what makes him unique. There's a cultural aspect to that.


Not exactly related.
I am critical of our local media.
I am harping on SF Chronicle to cover local [ SF Bay Area } music acts and musicians and other artists.
There are many excellent artists and deserve promotion.

So, in my perfect world, having Josh and his skill would be a great story.

Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: GRollins] #3005743 08/30/19 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by GRollins
I can save you some time by negating all of South Carolina.
1) There's absolutely no music scene in the center, where I live. None. It's a friggin' wasteland. Charleston, at the coast...is a dim maybe, but bear in mind that it would be heavily seasonal. Even moreso for Myrtle Beach (the north end of the coast) and Hilton Head (the southern end).
2) SC would definitely, absolutely fail your red state test. I absolutely detest it here but, like you, I will desist, lest the conversation turn ugly.

North Carolina trends red, but is not as homogeneous. You'd have three possibilities:
1) The Triangle...that being Chapel Hill, Durham, and Raleigh. (Not to be confused with the Triad, which is Greensboro, Winston Salem, and what...High Point? I forget.)
2) Charlotte.
3) Asheville.
All would fit the mild winter category, with the caveat that it does snow in Asheville, being up in the mountains. It don't hardly snow no mo' in Charlotte or the Triangle and when it does it's like down here...gone in an hour or two, next day at the most. The last "real" snow I remember from when I was living in Chapel Hill was in '74, I think. After that, the snow simply stopped, like turning off a switch. The more the climate skews, the less likely it is to even dust the ground. I remember two or three 6-8" snowfalls every winter when I was a kid living in Spartanburg (NW corner of SC, about an hour from Asheville). Now? Nuthin'. So it's possible that even Asheville will be too warm for snow in the near future.
Of the three, Asheville is the most...uh...non-red, shall we say. Chapel Hill used to be, but it's changed a lot since I lived there in the '70s through early '80s.
Me? I'd love to move to Asheville. Do so in a skinny minute, except that my wife is working two jobs here and we're not portable yet. That hasn't stopped us from looking at real estate up there.
You? It might be worth taking an exploratory trip--a weekend?--to Asheville. If nothing else, it's totally gorgeous (one man's opinion--I happen to love the mountains) and there's a lot of stuff to do. The Triangle and Charlotte might be worth it, or might not. Forget the rest of NC. It's like SC.
Oh, and don't forget that Moog is based in Asheville, if your preferences lean that way. And Make Noise, too, I think.

Grey


Well, I live in Asheville and here is my take. Yes, it is beautiful, and we have a widely diverse group of people. And yes, it is worth living here. But from a realistic standpoint, you need to know that housing is expensive, and we have more of the best keyboardist (lot of jazz) in one place that I have every seen. However, a number of my friends are making a living in music. Many supplement their gigging with teaching. But again, they are well qualified teachers. I agree with GRollins - come visit and see for yourself. If nothing else, it is a great vacation.

Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3006137 09/02/19 04:59 PM
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Interested in hearing Josh's responses to this thread


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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Bobadohshe] #3006179 09/02/19 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Bobadohshe
Interested in hearing Josh's responses to this thread

Too late! He moved away from the computer.


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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Morizzle] #3006209 09/03/19 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Morizzle
Originally Posted by Bobadohshe
Interested in hearing Josh's responses to this thread

Too late! He moved away from the computer.

The city he moved to doesn't have 'lectricity.


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3007753 09/12/19 02:08 PM
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Being from NOLA and living in between Baton Rouge and NOLA, I echo the sentiments of the OP. The scene in NOLA has definitely changed within the last 10 years for sure and its even worse in BR. At this point its better to freelance and create your own gigs then rely on a club. However, there are still a few opportunities in town for musicians who travel. But with a family that can be challenging especially with small children. I hope the OP can wether the storm (no pun intended) and stick around. We need it.


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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3007754 09/12/19 02:14 PM
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As an accordionist the World is your oyster. Alas, there are no pearls!

Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3007784 09/12/19 04:38 PM
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Re: Cities to make a living as a player, 2019 edition [Re: Josh Paxton] #3007796 09/12/19 05:22 PM
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I think it would be easier to find a rich woman who loves music.

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