Monitoring. Can I use IEMs while rest of the band doesn't?

[kwyn]

So i struggle to hear my keys through wedges and my own speaker next to drummers and guitar amps.

 

Would IEMs be helpful IF they would be wired to a headphone amp attached to my Key Largo for personal monitoring? No wireless.

 

In other words, would I still hear the band through our shared wedges/amps?

 

The only thing coming through the IEMs would be my keys and I could adjust that level at will. Also, my vocals would be through wedges and not the IEMs. The reason is that I only sing a couple songs and the IEMs would be coming from my own personal keys mixer. The mics would be through the main mixer.

 

Am I making things too complicated? Will hearing the rest of the band and my vocals be an issue?

 

I also would like a little hearing protection. I have earplugs now. I assume the IEMs would help.

 

I am thinking something like Shure SE215s

 

[3rdAct]

I and a few other band members use IEMs, while the rest use wedges and amps. During practice I put just my keys through the IEMs and can hear the rest of the band fine, but it's not ideal. And I don't sing, but if I did I think that hearing my voice just from the bleed through would be insufficient. For shows I use a Rolls PM55P. There are two inputs. I put keys in one and a mix from FOH in the other. that way I can control the relative volumes. Works great. There are other similar mixers that would work. I like the PM55P because it has a limiter that I use on the FOH mix.

[David R]

I use Shure SE315s. In the function band, we use Behringer P16s as personal monitor mixers as well as headphone amps. I only have keyboards, my vocals and a very EQed bass guitar (top end for definition over the subs). I hear drums, lead vocalists and brass well enough over the volume of my ears.

 

Can the key largo drive a headphone amp?

 

I would NOT recommend having your vocals in a wedge and your keys in ears. If anything I would put vocals in your ears and send out from the KL monitor out to a separate small keys amp.

[3rdAct]

BTW, I used to use ambient IEMs, thinking that I would be able to adequately hear the rest of the band as "ambient." But this sounded awful. I think it was because the band is just so loud. If I'm feeding just keys in the IEMs (like I do at practice), I actually rather use regular IEMs. The band is loud enough that I can still hear the band well enough.

[kwyn]

I and a few other band members use IEMs, while the rest use wedges and amps. During practice I put just my keys through the IEMs and can hear the rest of the band fine, but it's not ideal. And I don't sing, but if I did I think that hearing my voice just from the bleed through would be insufficient. For shows I use a Rolls PM55P. There are two inputs. I put keys in one and a mix from FOH in the other. that way I can control the relative volumes. Works great. There are other similar mixers that would work. I like the PM55P because it has a limiter that I use on the FOH mix.

 

So could I put my key largo into one input for my keys and take a monitor mix for my vocals/rest of band in the other input? Or would having the keys coming in in both places not work?

[3rdAct]

I don't know about the key largo for this application, but you can get your keys from both places. If the keys' volume from FOH isn't very loud, then you will be able to (independently of what you get from FOH) turn up your keys volume in your IEMs (while keeping the rest of the band a little quieter)

[3rdAct]

Also, there are some nice little mixers that would enable you to mix your keys and vocals, and then send them to both FOH and your IEMs, to make sure you can hear yourself adequately.

[kwyn]

Also, there are some nice little mixers that would enable you to mix your keys and vocals, and then send them to both FOH and your IEMs, to make sure you can hear yourself adequately.

 

But then vocals couldn't be adjusted independent of the keys FOH, right?

[Stokely]

I have used iems for several hundred gigs with my current band; singer and current drummer also use them, others use wedges. Our current wedges are good enough that I don't need to bring an "amp" (powered speaker) for the others in the band; our old monitors were only sufficient to sort of hear vocals so I used to do that (even though I didn't hear it myself). It works fine this way.

 

As far as your vocals, I've always sent my vocals and keys to front of house on different channels. Then the band hears both via monitors or their own Iems through monitor sends. Most sound people aren't going to like having two different instruments (vocals and keys) coming in on one channel...really limits options there. Having submixed keys is different, I actually thing that control is best kept with me so a sound guy doesn't start messing with one keyboard vs another. We are a small time band without a dedicated sound person, and run sound from stage (for what it's worth).

 

I used to use my submixer to take in the monitor send from FOH, minus keys...that way I had more control. To do this you'd need a pre-fader aux send to avoid having a feedback loop (ie, the foh monitors going back to foh)...the key largo's is post fader I think because it is intended for effects and not monitors. These days I get everything back from FOH, including keys. It's way simpler that way. Caveat: if we are not running sound, I usually bring my speaker for keys and get prepared to use monitor wedges, as often the sound companies don't have time or motivation to accommodate much else.

 

Really helps to draw out the signal flow IMO, complete with with cables/connectors you'd need.

[3rdAct]

Also, there are some nice little mixers that would enable you to mix your keys and vocals, and then send them to both FOH and your IEMs, to make sure you can hear yourself adequately.

 

But then vocals couldn't be adjusted independent of the keys FOH, right?

Right. To do that and to have your own mix for keys and vocals, you'd have to send keys and vocals individually to FOH and to your own mixer for IEMs. (Sorry for the confusion, my initial statement was not very clear)

[ShadowMan]

I sub-mix my keyboards (2 or 3 depending on the gig) thru a Rolls MX28. Main outs go into Radial stereo DI to FOH. The stereo headphone out goes into a Rolls PM351 along with a house monitor mix - then to my Shure IEM's. This allows for a "more me" adjustment as needed. Works really well.

 

The 351 velcros onto the top of the MX, which sits on the top left of my lower board.

Very small footprint.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kwyn]

Also, there are some nice little mixers that would enable you to mix your keys and vocals, and then send them to both FOH and your IEMs, to make sure you can hear yourself adequately.

 

But then vocals couldn't be adjusted independent of the keys FOH, right?

Right. To do that and to have your own mix for keys and vocals, you'd have to send keys and vocals individually to FOH and to your own mixer for IEMs. (Sorry for the confusion, my initial statement was not very clear)

 

How would I send vocals 2 different places? I guess I'd have to ditch the key largo and get another mixer?

[mate stubb]

Some of us with Key Largos have discussed this before. My observations:

 

1. I frickin love using IEMs. Some of my band members still use stage amps and monitors, some don't. I love not having to carry stage amplification, because my back doesn't have too many more miles on it. I love that my ears don't ring after the gig. I love that I can make the most of my somewhat marginal singing voice because I can hear clearly enough to sing on pitch.

 

2. I prefer to hear the rest of the band thru a monitor mix rather than thru bleed. It's a lot clearer and more controllable. Fortunately for me, my band is not loud enough that bleed is a problem. I pick up bass guitar by bleed because he sets up behind me, and he's old school and prefers to get his room sound from the stage. Everything else I hear is via monitor mix. We control drum volume by using a really small cocktail kit in most rooms. I get a little kick added to my mix so I don't miss the beat, as we typically don't mic the snare.

 

3. It really really helps IEM usage if you get your own monitor mix from the band. We use the ubiquitous XR 18 for this.

 

4. Key Largo is not set up to take in a monitor mix without sending it back out the main outputs. If you want to feed your keys mix to FOH via the lovely transformer isolated mains (which is the main attraction of the KL for me), then this is a problem. You do not want to send a monitor mix back to the house in your keys mix. So some of us use a second small mixer which creates our IEM mix from the monitor mix and the KL keys mix. I also used to have a little headphone amp box which had 2 inputs so you could avoid the second mixer I guess.

[kwyn]

So I could go?

 

Nord & Viscount->key largo->2nd mixer

and

FOH monitor mix (including my vocals)->2nd mixer

 

And then 2nd mixer->Shure SE215 IEMs

 

Or do I need to 2nd mixer->headphone amp->IEMs?

 

 

[mate stubb]

So I could go?

 

Nord & Viscount->key largo->2nd mixer

and

FOH monitor mix (including my vocals)->2nd mixer

 

And then 2nd mixer->Shure SE215 IEMs

 

Yes. And just to be complete, key largo -> FOH

 

Or do I need to 2nd mixer->headphone amp->IEMs?

 

Nope. I run my IEMs directly from my 2nd mixer (Yamaha MG-06)

[kwyn]

Thanks!

 

How about a limiter? Where does that go? Between the mixer and the IEMs?

I've been reading that one is necessary for hearing protection.

[mate stubb]

I guess I would put a limiter on the FOH input of the 2nd mixer. I don't use one myself and don't have a real need. We are not prone to bursts of feedback.

[kwyn]

I guess I would put a limiter on the FOH input of the 2nd mixer. I don't use one myself and don't have a real need. We are not prone to bursts of feedback.

 

So that would go FOH->limiter->2nd mixer->IEM?

Wouldn't i want the limiter after the board and right before the IEMs?

Any recommendations for a limiter?

 

Thx for advice and patience, everyone

[mate stubb]

Limiter is going to be line level output, and likely won't drive IEMs loud enough.

 

I used one of those cheapie Behringer headphone amps for a short time instead of a 2nd mixer. It had 2 inputs which could be blended into either a stereo or dual mono mix. It also had a built in limiter and a belt clip and runs on batteries.

 

Unfortunately it also distorted badly. There might be similar devices with better quality.

[nursers]

Just FYI - I bought the Radial KL-8 rack unit so I could have everything in one i.e. allows me to control IEMs independently without needing to being the little mixer on top of my Key Largo. Works perfectly. That said, on the weekend I played a gig that required a totally minimalist rig and I plugged my IEMs direct into headphone jack of my MODX7 and worked great though obviously I'm not hearing a full mix by any means (and I use ambient IEMs).

[mate stubb]

Just FYI - I bought the Radial KL-8 rack unit so I could have everything in one i.e. allows me to control IEMs independently without needing to being the little mixer on top of my Key Largo. Works perfectly.

 

As did I. Coming soon to my rig!

[Dr Mike Metlay]

Every gig tends to be different in terms of available wedges and cabling, so I have learned to become very self-sufficient for monitoring over the years. I use IEMs religiously, because they protect my hearing on stage while letting me hear enough mo'me to prevent level creep. (Often my gigs are so small that there's no FOH and we're mixing from the stage... hearing myself just a tad too loud keeps me from overplaying and helps maintain a good balance to the PA.)

 

I regard a good pair of custom-fit IEMs to be essential gear for gigging. You can find models that boost the parts of the spectrum you'd like to hear more of, and while the custom fitting process adds expense to already-costly phones, the tight seal and extreme comfort are addictive.

 

Alternatively, if you really can't abide IEMs in your ear canals, there's always the Direct Sound EX-29. Great isolation, very little bleed, and over the years they've gone through four or five generations of driver design so the new ones actually don't sound so terrible that you want to die. They're not just for drummers any more!

 

[Tom Williams]

Happy IEM user here, in a band where currently all others use wedge monitors. I do not use a backline amp for my keys! If my bandmates wanna hear keys, they have to get 'em put into their wedges.

 

I send three channels to the FOH mixer: my vocals and a stereo mixdown (originally 5 to 7 input channels) of my various keyboards and electronic percussion.

 

Since my band uses an X32 (Behringer/Midas) for FOH, I am blessed with a versatile signal path.

 

I use a Behringer P16M -- monitor mixer that uses a Cat 5 digital bus to draw from the FOH mixer -- to give me whatever 16 sources I want. Everything can have the level, pan, and tone control I want. I set the lead singer a little to the left of center, and "more me" in the center.

 

The P16 then goes into a stereo wireless transmitter (UHF 500 MHz), thence into Westone 2-driver IEMs with isolating inserts. They drop the ambient sound level by about 25 dB.

 

I hear whatever I want / need to do my job, at the levels I want. I am not assaulted by crash cymbals. The only negative is that off-mic onstage dialogue is lost due to the isolation.

[Throbert]

I'm set up to mix keys and voice through my Aurora/AES16e, send FOH a Stereo keys mix and

a separate voice, send my Ashley 206 what ever keys, voice and ambient mic mix I need plus

FOH monitor feed.

 

In the future I would like to add a MOTU 8D in series between my AES16e out 1-4 and my Aurora

AES in 1-4 allowing me to share my mix through AVB on enet, the problem is all others would have

to use MOTU AVB devices since every company using AVB has their own protocol.

[stoken6]

Sorry late to this thread, but:

1. Shure SE215s will let enough leakage in for you to hear the noisy instruments/amps

2. Key Largo isn't an ideal tool for this job as it won't give you an independent monitor mix. Rolls PM351 is an ideal gadget in this scenario - independent control of your keys submix, mic and monitor send from the desk - shame it hasn't got a limiter.

3. Dr Metlay +1! Early on in my gigging "career" I realised that I couldn't rely on the rest of the band to to give me a decent monitor mix and not deafen me. So I went the Rolls+IEM route to ensure I could always hear myself and protect myself against excessive level on stage. It's sometimes a compromise, but taken overall it's an absolute blessing.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[RudyS]

Sorry late to this thread, but:

1. Shure SE215s will let enough leakage in for you to hear the noisy instruments/amps

Cheers, Mike.

 

Maybe my ears are already ruined (or we don't play as loud), but this is not my experience. I use the 215's as well, but really want to send the band mix to my ears, otherwise I can't hear it well enough.

 

I use the 2 mixer setup as previously described, in fact, I actually use 3 mixers to make it all happen. But I really like the fact that I have control over my own volume and the volume of the band mix. I even have a mic pre-amp, so I can set up an ambient mic when necessary (which normally isn't the case).

 

 

 

 

[J. Dan]

When it comes to bleed, I don't think you can make any generalization about a specific model. It's not the IEM, it's the tips you use, relative to your own anatomy, that determine how much isolation you get. Those Shures come with different tips you can choose from, and different tips will work differently with different people. That's why the high end ones use custom molds - so you can have them molded to YOUR ears.

 

A lot of the workarounds people discuss I think are directly related to the people who aren't happy with IEMs. I am a fan of IEMs and will use them when I can, with the caveat that I have to be able to get everything in my mix, I have to have my own dedicated mix, and ideally I have control over my own mix. I've tried some of the workarounds and they are all problematic for different reasons.

 

I'm not in the camp of those who want ambient bleed as part of their mix. Seems to me that it eliminates most of the advantage of using IEMs in the first place. I ideally want perfect isolation so that I only hear what I put in the IEM's. That means everything has to be available....all drums mic'd up, etc. if you are sharing mixes with people who aren't using IEMs they aren't going to put drums in their monitor. So now all of a sudden you're missing count ins and fills, etc. Nothing better than dialing everything exactly the way you want and having that level of clarity. But anything can make it go south. Play a lead where the sound is a little louder and engages the limited - now all of a sudden is squashes out everything but you, and you can no longer play with the rest of the band. You have to get it dialed in. Conventional monitors are much more forgiving, but when you get an IEM mix right, there's nothing else like it.

[EscapeRocks]

Yes, you can use ears even if no one else is..

 

Get one of these. Rolls PM351 Your Keys and Vox go into it, and your adjustment do NOT affect FOH.

You can then simply take a feed from FOH of the rest of the band minus your keys and VOX. You now have control over what you hear.

 

Rolls has updated the PM351. They got rid of the jumpers (for mono/stereo and Gnd Lift) and replaced them with switches.

 

I send the headphone out to my Shure PSM300 wireless ear system.

 

 

 

 

 

[Aidan]

I also use the PM351 as David describes. Also, if you're in a really low-grade mixing situation where you can't get a monitor feed back from the board, simply stick a dynamic mic into the 'Mic level' channel (I use a battered old SM58) and point it at the nearest wedge. Not perfect but good enough for most occasions.

 

Good that they've updated the jumpers for switches. I travel with a pair of tweezers for that reason!

[kwyn]

What would I do for a limiter if went with the rolls pm351?

 

I assume key largo would go into it, and my mic would go into it too.

Yes, you can use ears even if no one else is..

 

Get one of these. Rolls PM351 Your Keys and Vox go into it, and your adjustment do NOT affect FOH.

You can then simply take a feed from FOH of the rest of the band minus your keys and VOX. You now have control over what you hear.

 

 

How many inputs are on this? The way you described requires 3, correct? One for my key largo with 2 boards going into that, one for my mic, and one for an FOH mix? Then into the IEMs.

Where does a limiter go?