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Synths (or VSTs+controllers) w/endless rotaries, etc.


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PIcking up from the thread about patch memory...

 

An irritating thing about synth preset recall even in a board loaded with synth control knobs is that further tweaking of the sound (whether for live performance or for additional programming) usually involves fixed range knobs (pots) which either "jump" to a new value as soon as you move them or need to be moved past their stored value to "catch" it before they do anything. Related but different problem: You can't see what the current setting is just by looking at the knob (sometimes partially addressed by providing a button function that allows you to see a knob's value on a screen without having to move the knob in such a way as to alter the sound... better than nothing, but a poor substitute).

 

The best solution seems to be endless encoders (which always immediately begin altering a parameter's value from its current position as soon as you move them), combined with an LED ring that visually indicates the parameter's current position.

 

Question 1: which keyboards/controllers or dedicated synths have one or both of these features?

 

Question 2: which knobby synths with fixed (rather than endless) knobs allow you to hit a button and have the sound instantly correspond to the settings of all the front panel controls?

 

Either of these approaches gives you some way to experience the immediacy of a non-preset synth, where you can see how something is set just by looking, and moving a knob immediately does what you want.

 

For the first question (call this category 1), ones I know of are

 

Novation SL Mk II controller - 8 definable endless rotaries with LED rings

 

Behringer Motor and BCF2000 controllers - 8 definable endless rotaries with LED rings, plus 9 or 8 motorized faders respectively

 

Behringer BCF2000 - 32 definable endless rotaries with LED rings

 

MIDI Fighter Twister - 16 definable endless rotaries with LED rings

 

Samson Graphite controller - 8 definable endless rotaries

 

Many Yamaha boards have 4-8 definable endless rotaries (i.e. the current Montage/MODX and also many of their Motif-series predecessors), they can control internal or external sounds

 

Nord Lead 3 has a ton of dedicated endless rotaries with LED indicators, Nord Stage 2 has a few, Nord Stage 3 has fewer (just the definable External Control knob and the various volume knobs).

 

Casio PX-560, MZ-X300/X500 have 3 endless encoders.

 

What others are there?

 

And for the ones that are just controllers, since there's no sound in the board, you obviously need to be controlling some other sound source... Which sound sources actually send parameter data back to the controller so that, when you recall a preset, the rings indicate the new settings for those parameters? Related to this, I had been interested in using the Behringer Motor's motorized faders with a clonewheel VST, but the ones I checked did not send MIDI OUT for recalled drawbar values, so they wouldn't work for this purpose. Which VST (or maybe even iOS app?) synths send MIDI out so that the LED rings can be used for this?

 

I'd also be interested in hearing any feedback about how well the endless encoders work on any of these systems, i.e. in terms of getting the amount of change you expect for a certain amount of movement.

 

For the second question (category 2), the Roland SE-02 and JP-08 (and probably other Boutiques?) have a MANUAL button that instantly make the front panel live and accurate.

 

What other synths have that feature?

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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PIcking up from the thread about patch memory...

The best solution seems to be endless encoders (which always immediately begin altering a parameter's value from its current position as soon as you move them), combined with an LED ring that visually indicates the parameter's current position.

 

Question 1: which keyboards/controllers or dedicated synths have one or both of these features?

 

Question 2: which knobby synths with fixed (rather than endless) knobs allow you to hit a button and have the sound instantly correspond to the settings of all the front panel controls?

 

Novation SL Mk II controller - 8 definable endless rotaries with LED rings

Behringer Motor and BCF2000 controllers - 8 definable endless rotaries with LED rings, plus 9 or 8 motorized faders respectively

MIDI Fighter Twister - 16 definable endless rotaries with LED rings

Samson Graphite controller - 8 definable endless rotaries [...]

What others are there?

 

And for the ones that are just controllers, since there's no sound in the board, you obviously need to be controlling some other sound source... Which sound sources actually send parameter data back to the controller so that, when you recall a preset, the rings indicate the new settings for those parameters? Related to this, I had been interested in using the Behringer Motor's motorized faders with a clonewheel VST, but the ones I checked did not send MIDI OUT for recalled drawbar values, so they wouldn't work for this purpose. Which VST (or maybe even iOS app?) synths send MIDI out so that the LED rings can be used for this?

 

I'd also be interested in hearing any feedback about how well the endless encoders work on any of these systems, i.e. in terms of getting the amount of change you expect for a certain amount of movement.

 

For the second question (category 2), the Roland SE-02 and JP-08 (and probably other Boutiques?) have a MANUAL button that instantly make the front panel live and accurate.

 

What other synths have that feature?

 

Phew! Lots of questions, a few answers:

 

1. I own or have owned a Novation SL MkII, Behringer Motor49, MIDI Fighter Twister, and Samson Graphite49. All of them have endless encoders that work very well, although not all have LED rings. Generally, the firmware of the board has an acceleration factor built in so that small turns are very slow incremental changes and fast turns cause big parameter jumps. The Behringer doesn't accelerate quite as fast as I'd like, but the Samson and Novation do.

 

If you have the space for it, I would put in a major thumbs-up vote for the MIDI Fighter Twister. I adore mine and it's traveled around the world with me. It's rugged, light, easy to program, and can definitely respond to external MIDI if you set it up that way. It's one of those Swiss Army controllers that I toss in a bag when I don't know what precisely I'm going to need at a gig, and I will have to build it on the fly.

 

I'm not sure about which third-party software sends data that can be interpreted correctly by ANY controller, but it's now pretty common for companies to offer specific feedback loops between specific keyboards and specific apps. For example, the Analog Laboratory software by Arturia maps beautifully to the KeyLab MkII and other Arturia controllers, Ableton Live is transparent to use with the Novation SL MkIII, and Reason and a couple of other DAWs have full bidirectional support on the Nektar Panorama.

 

Then, of course, there's the Native Instruments NKS standard, where many pieces of software can send data back and forth to Komplete Kontrol devices to some extent or another.

 

2. The Arturia MatrixBrute has a Panel switch to instantly make the panel live, and nearly every knob and fader and button sends MIDI CCs. If you're fast with MIDI Learn assignments in your DAW, it makes a heck of a controller.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, golly gosh) :D

Musician, Author, Editor, Educator, Impresario, Online Radio Guy, Cut-Rate Polymath, and Kindly Pedant

Editor-in-Chief, Bjooks ~ Author of SYNTH GEMS 1

 

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Thanks for your input.

I'm not sure about which third-party software sends data that can be interpreted correctly by ANY controller, but it's now pretty common for companies to offer specific feedback loops between specific keyboards and specific apps. For example, the Analog Laboratory software by Arturia maps beautifully to the KeyLab MkII and other Arturia controllers, Ableton Live is transparent to use with the Novation SL MkIII, and Reason and a couple of other DAWs have full bidirectional support on the Nektar Panorama.

I wouldn't intend to use a DAW. Just a host (like Gig Performer) and VSTs. So I guess the question is whether a given VST, once its controls are mapped to MIDI CCs, will send its data back out to the same CC numbers to which you've assigned the functions. If not, I'm not sure how much value there would be in LED rings on a controller from a live performance perspective.

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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That comes down to the functionality of the host software . You certainly can set MainStage up to send midi out for the status of screen controls to equivalent mapped controls on a controller. But AFAIK you would need a controller with motorised encoders like the Behringer to adjust to the postion of the screen control, for example the mapped functions in synth patch when you load a patch. I am pretty sure in Windows Cantabile can send midi out and suspect that this function would be supported by Gig Performer as a late entrant.

 

 

A misguided plumber attempting to entertain | MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P

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That comes down to the functionality of the host software . You certainly can set MainStage up to send midi out for the status of screen controls to equivalent mapped controls on a controller.

So if you're running the drawbar organ in Mainstage, you can recall organ presets and have the Behringer's motorized faders move into position? And would that also work if, instead of Mainstage's own organ, you were using Mainstage to host some other organ VST (VB3, Blue3, B5), even if those VSTs themselves don't normally send MIDI drawbar information out (they only receive)?

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Question 2: Minilogue has this feature.

Cool. Also I believe the Moog Sub37/Subsequent37.

 

And the Roland RD2000 is another board with 8 endless encoders with LED rings. And the Montage which I mentioned for endless encoders also has the LED rings.

 

There's also another in-between category... LEDs to indicate current position, but without the endless control. The Moog Little/Slim Phatty has that; and the Kurzweil Forte, Yamaha Montage and Roland RD2000 do that on their sliders.

 

Korg OASYS is another with endless encoders with LED rings, and LEDs along the sliders. I believe that Nektar Panorama, Arturia Keylab, and some Akai controllers also have endless encoders, but not LEDs.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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