CX-3? XK-3c? SK-1?

[drawback]

I have a NE2 / Ventilator combination. Lately I purchased a Kurzweil SP4-7 for other sounds, and I still see no reason to upgrade to the NE3.

 

I've always said I have missed the drawbar experience so no matter what Nord has in store for future organomics, I've already decided not to go there. I was thinking very likely a Hammond XK-3c.

 

Here's my dilemma: before I bought the Electro2, I had a post-2000 model Korg CX-3. Because I was doing a lot of touring, I needed an all-purpose board and parted with the CX-3. I found out a few weeks ago that I am able to buy the Korg back, and it's still in great condition, and the current owner is not in a hurry... it's there waiting for me.

 

So now that the SK-1 is out, I've been waffling back & forth over what to do... get the Korg with its infinitesimal adjustability, spend well over double the used CX-3 price and get an XK-3c, or somewhere in between with the SK-1. I have a Kurzweil SP4-7 for all the other sounds and I'm not in need of an all-purpose board as much as I was a few years ago but the SK-1 is a lot of bang for the buck, although I'm not convinced the sounds, other than Hammond, are all that good.

 

Something's been bugging me all the while and it's interesting because I had this conversation the other night with my guitar player when he showed me his beautifully restored 1968 Telecaster, and it struck me that the core of my dilemma is that everyone else in the music biz plays real musical instruments, and unless I'm playing a grand piano, everything I play is simply an evolutionary computer with a keyboard attached. There is very little homage attached to the instrument as a real musical instrument or anything I would consider worth holding on to for like, 40 years, and love it even more as time goes by.

 

So part of me wants to get that CX-3 back, with its great Hammond sound, (Ventilator enhanced), wonderfully playable action, wood body, drawbars, and that general musical instrument feeling. The other part of me says to get the SK-1, with it's Hammond guts (but IMO "Oldsmobile dashboard" control panel) and stick it out through OS and non-organ patch upgrades and pretend it's a musical instrument I'm playing. Or, I could see what comes up on the used market for Hammond XK-3c's.

 

Is the Hammond really that much better than the Korg (other than the Leslie sim)? The CX-3 is very, very adjustable...

 

Comments?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mate stubb]

Step 1:

 

Borrow CX-3. Plug in Vent. Analyze.

[drawback]

Ah, forgot to tell you, it's in another city, far far away, and there ain't no more around here.

 

 

 

 

[MusicaL]

One of my most memorable experiences with any clonewheel organ was the CX-3 (way before there was a vent). I instantly fell in love. At that time, I didn't have the money or the musical direction to justify the purchase. I still remember playing the CX-3 at Sam Ash for what seemed like hours, and I just couldn't get enough. Years later, I played the XK-3c and loved it. The heft and weight of the XK3c ruled it out for me.

 

Given the choices you have, I probably would go with the Sk-1, if it sonically passes the test, simply because it is 15 lbs lighter, you may be able to avoid having to use the vent, and has additional hopefully useable sounds!!

 

And as has been hashed to death on the other thread, neither of them uses the original technology and therefore, as you put it, both are but an "evolutionary computer with a keyboard attached."

 

aL

[Adan]

What is your so-called friend asking for the CX-3?

[drawback]

What is your so-called friend asking for the CX-3?

 

$900

 

 

[NewImprov]

I played a CX-3 a bit before I got my XK-1, and the only weakness I found in its sound was the leslie. Since you have the Ventilator, I'd get the CX-3 now, run it through the Vent and play your ass off. Then, when the SK-1 becomes more widely available, try to play one. If it knocks your socks off, sell the CX and the Vent and get the SK, if it doesn't, keep on playing the CX.

[realll]

Sounds like a plan.

[Dglavko]

Another possibility is to add some ocean beach drawbars to your Nord and then you have drawbars. I added them to my C1, figured out a way to velcro it/them (I have two) to the C1 in a not so permanent way, and it feels like a whole new rig.

 

Sadly, keyboards do not seem to be like guitars, violins, drums, saxophones etc. Keyboards get worse with age. Aging parts wood do not make them sound better. They make them sound worse. Even my 1916 grand piano is worth less than the day we bought it 20 years ago, and the $20,000 required to restore is better spent on a new and better model (as that much almost buys a Steinway nowadays)

 

Of course there are a few exceptions: vintage wurlis, rhodes and Hammonds, and some analog synths, if you don't mind paying the repair tech every two months or DIY.

 

I love my wurli, but can't see myself sponsoring a whole family of vintage gear like that.

[Rocket Man 2]

Vintage telecasters are light and portable. Vintage Hammond organs are not either. Your three selections above are architecture of a similar type--an "evolutionary computer with a keyboard attached".

 

Personally, the CX-3 has never seemed to sound as "Hammond" as a Hammond. But the KC-3 didn't sound right to me, either (unless you heavily "tweak" it and add the Ventilator.) The XK-3c does, but it's a bit heavier than your other two options.

 

Does that help clarify at all? I think B3-er has written a good comparison thread on Hammonds somewhere, but I am not finding it. Does anybody recall the thread?

 

 

[rappa29]

Since you have the Ventilator, I'd get the CX-3 now, run it through the Vent and play your ass off. Then, when the SK-1 becomes more widely available, try to play one. If it knocks your socks off, sell the CX and the Vent and get the SK, if it doesn't, keep on playing the CX.

 

+1. You can flip the CX3 easily (sell it back to your buddy) if the SK1 comes out and makes you see .

[jook]

The biggest issue with these "evolutionary computers with a keyboard attached" is that their market prices peak at the time of their release. When it is new, it is cutting edge, but it becomes obsolete because it is digital technology that gets superseded with faster processors, software, etc. ala a computer. Their prices can only go down, unlike a Telecaster or any wood and string instrument, which changes from year to year.

 

Given that, I find more sense as others said above, in going back to your old CX3 (priced at its lowest), with sentimental value (maybe your old patches too), and waiting out for a future upgrade to a used SK1 or XK's further down the line.

 

 

[MikeT156]

Personally, the CX-3 has never seemed to sound as "Hammond" as a Hammond. But the KC-3 didn't sound right to me,

 

Yeah, and a CX-3 doesn't sound like a Vox or a Farfisa either. I used an old B2 and Leslie for gigs back in the old days and it was a major PITA. I had a brand new B3 and Leslie 122 at home in my music room that I would not take out for gigs. One day I was in NYC and saw a CX-3 in the window of a Music Store. I went in and bought it without trying it. (Last one). I took it home, set it up, plugged it in and A/B'ed to my B3. It was slightly "thinner" sounding, and a bit shrill on the upper end of the KB, HOWEVER, it was "close enough" when I took into account that it took 4 of us to move the Hammond, and 2/3 of us to move the Leslies. At 2:30 in the morning load out, it lost its charm. It also lost its status as my gig organ to the CX-3 once I connected the CX-3 to a Leslie cabinet. In a rock context, most of the nuiances of a Hammond are drowned out by the rest of the band anyway. Sometimes, sanity wins out.

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Mike T.

[rockkeys]

 

Something's been bugging me all the while and it's interesting because I had this conversation the other night with my guitar player when he showed me his beautifully restored 1968 Telecaster, and it struck me that the core of my dilemma is that everyone else in the music biz plays real musical instruments, and unless I'm playing a grand piano, everything I play is simply an evolutionary computer with a keyboard attached. There is very little homage attached to the instrument as a real musical instrument or anything I would consider worth holding on to for like, 40 years, and love it even more as time goes by.

 

So part of me wants to get that CX-3 back, with its great Hammond sound,

 

 

 

 

 

 

You make a legitimate point about real vs computer generated instruments...but a post 2000 cx-3 is just another clone, so I don't really follow what your're getting at? If you feel connected to the cx-3/vent, than play that combo. I play a 1st generation cx-3 (1979) through a vent because I personally connect to the ergonomics of that clone, and I dig the sound it makes. Remember, clones don't sound the same as a B3, but they can still sound good. it's up to you to determine which one sounds/feels right for you< A "vintage" looking clone is still just a computer. You can get a wicked software organ and build a cool, vintage style console for your midi controller/laptop/receptor/vent...don't be fooled by looks....trust your ears above all else...

[JoeToGo]

It was discussions like this which prompted my purchase of a (very used) CX-3, five years ago.

 

Lately, I haven't seen CX-3's mentioned at all when people discuss clonewheels -- it's all about Hammond, Crumar, maybe Nord. Which is fine i don't need a majority agreement on what sounds good in my ears. But I'm surprised, simply because I had the impression that it was, in fact, one of the better-regarded B-3 replacements.

 

Have opinions changed? Have players changed? Has technology changed? What's different?

[Outkaster]

Well remember it came out in two versions 2001 and 2002. Attach a ventilator or Lester K pedal to it and it's not bad. Tucktronix does it really well. I see him still use it. At the time it blew everyting away I thought. I only got rid of mine in 2004 after hearing the XK3 and then the XK3C in 2008. The techonolgoy has improved a whole lot. Personally I think musicianship most of the time is worse but that is another discussion. I really wish Korg would come out with an updated model. I liked it for the time I had it. Also remember what is on your signature; It's not the gear, it's the player ...

[To B3]

I'm reading that thread right when I'm having the opportunitty to pick one for a good price... so... How does it stand on its own with the internal leslie sim? I cant pick up a vent or something like that now, so How does it compare with my current keys (Roland VR09 and Nord Electro 2)? Is it any good controlling an older ipad 3 for occasional aditional sounds? Main reason I want to pick it up is for the "real instrument"feel that I'm missing on my other keyboards, that I love... But I miss grabbing drawbars and stuff...

[Delaware Dave]

You say you purchased the Kurzweil SP4-7 for "other sounds". It would be nice to know what those other sounds are. If those other sounds are the same sounds that are in an SK1 (acoustic piano, EP's, Clavinet) I might suggest that you look at the Mojo 61. You also never said if the Electro you have is 61 or 73 keys . If 61 keys then I would look at the Mojo which will also give a better quality Hammond/leslie, piano, EP's and Clav. It also has one set of drawbars, same as the SK1. You can pick one up in the KC classifieds for $975 for "Dlrshort" who has one for sale.

 

[CEB]

For what its worth I'd buy a new XK-1c before I pay $900 for a used CX-3 but that's just me.

 

I still gig with my XK-3c + Vent. It sounds fine. I wouldn't buy one now. In the case it's HEAVY. Heck out of the case it's still heavy. It's big advantage is that it is long paid for.

 

Dual set of tone bars is great. You be be pulling your next registration while playing your current one. Not sure what I'd buy if needed something new.

[drawback]

You say you purchased the Kurzweil SP4-7 for "other sounds". It would be nice to know what those other sounds are. If those other sounds are the same sounds that are in an SK1 (acoustic piano, EP's, Clavinet) I might suggest that you look at the Mojo 61. You also never said if the Electro you have is 61 or 73 keys . If 61 keys then I would look at the Mojo which will also give me a better quality Hammond/leslie, piano, EP's and Clav. It also has one set of drawbars, same as the SK1. You can pick one up in the KC classifieds for $975 for "Dlrshort" who has one for sale.

 

You guys realize this thread is from 2011... ?

[CEB]

It was discussions like this which prompted my purchase of a (very used) CX-3, five years ago.

 

Lately, I haven't seen CX-3's mentioned at all when people discuss clonewheels -- it's all about Hammond, Crumar, maybe Nord. Which is fine i don't need a majority agreement on what sounds good in my ears. But I'm surprised, simply because I had the impression that it was, in fact, one of the better-regarded B-3 replacements.

 

Have opinions changed? Have players changed? Has technology changed? What's different?

 

Age and parts availability changes. I have two Hammond clones (B3000 and XB-2) both play well and sound fine through a Vent or Leslie. But if the wrong chip goes out they are done. The XB-2 has tons of balls.

 

I don't buy old digital boards I have to depend on.

[elif]

Does the CX-3 use natural or equally tempered tuning for the odd drawbar harmonics? AFAIK all the early clonewheels used natural harmonics. I suspect the 1st gen CX-3 ('79-'91) used natural tuning and the 2nd gen ('01-'11) used the approximated equal tempered tuning such as all modern clonewheels (and the electro-mechanical Hammonds) do.

[Legatoboy]

I think if you don't use the equal temp. you get that phase problem many of the early Clonewheels had with that unwanted 'beating' when pulling the black DB out with white.... pretty sure Ver. 2 is equal tempered on the odd drawbars . My CX-3 Ver. 2 doesn't do that... I know for sure it doesn't!

[To B3]

How does the actual CX3 compares to the Cx3 on the Kronos and the Vox Continental?

 

About the dependability, how is it? Many problems?

[AnotherScott]

It was discussions like this which prompted my purchase of a (very used) CX-3, five years ago.

 

Lately, I haven't seen CX-3's mentioned at all when people discuss clonewheels -- it's all about Hammond, Crumar, maybe Nord. Which is fine i don't need a majority agreement on what sounds good in my ears. But I'm surprised, simply because I had the impression that it was, in fact, one of the better-regarded B-3 replacements.

 

Have opinions changed? Have players changed? Has technology changed? What's different?

The biggest thing that has changes is that the CX3 has been out of production for about 8 years. Its technology is built into the Kronos and Vox Continental, which are where you'll find more current conversation about "current CX3" pros and cons. The Vox is a cool board, much lighter weight and more versatile than the original CX3, plus it has a tube for is overdrive. But it strangely lacks the expected percussion and CV controls (you have to call up a preset that has the combination you want, if there is one). And it uses one set of touchstrips instead of two sets of drawbars. (The full set of controls makes the original CX3 a nice controller for an organ VST.) The biggest knock on any of these is probably the rotary sim, which is not awful, but is not state of the art either, so putting an external sim like a Ventilator on it may be desirable.

 

I'm reading that thread right when I'm having the opportunitty to pick one for a good price... so... How does it stand on its own with the internal leslie sim? I cant pick up a vent or something like that now, so How does it compare with my current keys (Roland VR09 and Nord Electro 2)? Is it any good controlling an older ipad 3 for occasional aditional sounds? Main reason I want to pick it up is for the "real instrument"feel that I'm missing on my other keyboards, that I love... But I miss grabbing drawbars and stuff...

I'd say sim is competitive with VR09 and old Electro. Not sure about the overdrive side of it, it's been a while since I've played one. It should be fine as an iPad controller.

 

[JoeToGo]

Well remember it came out in two versions 2001 and 2002. Attach a ventilator or Lester K pedal to it and it's not bad. Tucktronix does it really well. I see him still use it. At the time it blew everyting away I thought. I only got rid of mine in 2004 after hearing the XK3 and then the XK3C in 2008. The techonolgoy has improved a whole lot. Personally I think musicianship most of the time is worse but that is another discussion. I really wish Korg would come out with an updated model. I liked it for the time I had it. Also remember what is on your signature; It's not the gear, it's the player ...

Since the CX-3 engine is in the Kronos, that doesn't sound like outdated technology. Which leads to ....

How does the actual CX3 compares to the Cx3 on the Kronos and the Vox Continental?

About the dependability, how is it? Many problems?

I've had no problems with mine (2nd gen) -- it's been entirely reliable. I have no way to compare it with a Kronos or a Vox.

Does the CX-3 use natural or equally tempered tuning for the odd drawbar harmonics? AFAIK all the early clonewheels used natural harmonics. I suspect the 1st gen CX-3 ('79-'91) used natural tuning and the 2nd gen ('01-'11) used the approximated equal tempered tuning such as all modern clonewheels (and the electro-mechanical Hammonds) do.

This would certainly explain a preference for the second version (besides two sets of drawbars).

I'm reading that thread right when I'm having the opportunitty to pick one for a good price... so... How does it stand on its own with the internal leslie sim? I cant pick up a vent or something like that now, so How does it compare with my current keys (Roland VR09 and Nord Electro 2)? Is it any good controlling an older ipad 3 for occasional aditional sounds? Main reason I want to pick it up is for the "real instrument"feel that I'm missing on my other keyboards, that I love... But I miss grabbing drawbars and stuff...

Leslie sim: works for me. I see others claiming a Ventilator is necessary, but I don't know what they're running for sound. In my case, a CPS Spacestation, which like a Leslie is a one-point sound source.

ipad: no idea.

 

Something I never see mentioned: the fact that the (2nd gen) CX-3's two sets of drawbars can be used as one extended set. I expect this is because we just want clonewheels to replicate previous devices, not go anywhere new. But even in replication, it excels: leakage, drawbars, drive, waterfall keys, and the ability to set speed and mike placement for both horn and rotor in the Leslie sim ... really, I don't see what the CX-3 lacks, besides a second manual (which it has, in the BX-3). It even has some built-in reverb -- not much, mind you, but often a touch is all that's needed. And there's the nice wooden case, perfect for another keyboard or two.

 

In any case: their value is evidently falling, because i see them listed cheaper now than when I bought mine ... which may just mean that I've found that elusive holy grail: a digital keyboard with falling value

 

 

 

[J. Dan]

I have both a CX3 and a Kronos. As far as the sound engine itself, they were virtually identical when the Kronos first came out, since then, software updates have made improvements mostly to the Leslie simulation, those some would still consider that a weakness compared to so,e competitors. On the Kronos you have the touch screen that's nice for tweaking all of the parameters like mic distance, stereo spread, ramp times, leakage, preamp, etc. However, there is no comparison to having the layout of the CX 3 with drawbars and dedicated controls for V/C, Leslie, drive, etc. Add a basic midi controller and you have dual manual just like that.

 

So I'd say it's nice having the CX3 engine in a Kronos but not the same as playing a CX3, in the same way that it's nice having the PolySix engine in the Kronos, but not the same as playing a PolySix, even if it SOUNDS the same.

[Morrissey]

Much love for the CX3. I'll echo the comment about its weight, though. I upgraded to a dual manual organ that weighs about the same as the single manual CX3. Otherwise, I would still be happy to use the CX3 for gigs today. Echoing J.Dan, the interface/layout is super authentic. And, although there are better Leslie sims now, I was never embarrassed to use the CX3 internal Leslie sim.

[J. Dan]

Exactly

[AnotherScott]

Something I never see mentioned: the fact that the (2nd gen) CX-3's two sets of drawbars can be used as one extended set. I expect this is because we just want clonewheels to replicate previous devices, not go anywhere new.

Good point. The extended set is replicated in the Kronos (if not as convenient since there aren't as many hard controls), but not in the Vox. The Kronos also lacks the high trigger point, and any default assignment for rotary pedal or percussion/CV controls that ergonomically work as expected as you'd see on the CX3 and many other more "dedicated" clonewheels. Also agreeing with everything Dan and Morriseysixman said. Playing organ "feels" better on the CX3 than the Kronos. I haven't tried the Vox, but its surprising control limitations are disappointing.