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OT: when to retire #3003452 08/16/19 08:41 AM
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J. Dan Offline OP
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Of course this is different in playing music vs day job, especially if music IS your day job. I started thinking about this for 2 reasons. First, I have lost many musician friends over the last 5-10 years who were my age, and I'm only 48. Second, my dad worked until he was 67 and passed at 74. Not a lot of years to enjoy retirement and not able to do a lot of things physically that I would like to do. All of the most successful bands around here seem close to my age...40s to early 50s. Seems like once you hit 60s you're doing low paying gigs because you just want to play.

It got me wondering, if I was willing to throttle back my expectations of standard of living, how early could I retire so that I could shift focus to music in my final musical years, basically my 50s, which at coming up.

Anybody ever consider this? The thing that seems to throw the proverbial wrench is insurance considering I'm type I diabetic.


Dan

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Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003456 08/16/19 11:13 AM
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Things you have likely considered...

What do you have set up to retire on?

You probably know you will incur a 10% penalty drawing on 401k funds before passing 59.5 years.

Pensions are untouchable before a set age.

Medical coverage gets more expensive the older you get.

Is there a side business you can set up that brings in money with relatively little of your involvement, (similarly financial investments where your money makes money for you)?

Some people work a part time job solely for the benefits.

Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003460 08/16/19 11:42 AM
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Having enough money but playing a little less is a lot more fun than not having enough money and playing all the time. After a while you may reset the playing. Of course, you can always “unretire” if things don’t work out on the playing scene.


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Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003463 08/16/19 11:53 AM
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It's all about the money, isn't it? If you have a mortgage, need/want medical insurance, etc., that has to be factored in. Lori is counting down the days until she's eligible (it's really in years) and thinks she can do it without hurting things financially, which I think is later than the eligibility date.


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003464 08/16/19 11:57 AM
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I was talking to a colleague at work, and he said "you want to retire with an income that's half your salary". How does that play into your scenario (ask yourself, you don't have to reveal your financial circumstances here)? Factor in expected income from gigs in your 50s (but that's not guaranteed, obviously).

Coker makes a good point - if your retirement doesn't work out, does your line-of-work/skill set lend itself to contract work? If the US is anything like the UK, it may be difficult to be hired for a permanent position in your 50s.

Cheers, Mike.


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Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003481 08/16/19 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by J. Dan
Of c

It got me wondering, if I was willing to throttle back my expectations of standard of living, how early could I retire so that I could shift focus to music in my final musical years, basically my 50s, which at coming up.

Anybody ever consider this? The thing that seems to throw the proverbial wrench is insurance considering I'm type I diabetic.


Early and successful retirement is a favorite topic. I retired at 62 and having the best time of my life, the past 5 years.

You are taking the step that most people fear- facing your mortality. If you can objectively estimate your life span, you can start a financial plan.
If you don't plan realistically, find someone to help your process.

A financial plan involves organizing a 25-30 year spreadsheet of retirement income and expenses. I also keep this spreadsheet up to date as I get better information on future health plan coverage. Health also includes dental, vision and hearing.

I will almost stop there and leave 1 more bit of advice- retire as early as possible so you can enjoy your passion, which is music. Its great to have the gift of time so I can fully enjoy music production.

Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003486 08/16/19 02:29 PM
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I think that when my Avatar looks like this I will probably start thinking about retiring.... wave

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Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003487 08/16/19 02:38 PM
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I'm right on the ragged edge of retirement and am 55. I'm finding what's really helping is an honest thorough budget (including all the things we want to do and all of their associated costs). I am also trying to morph into living on that budget a few years early to look for possible problems. Insurance is really the 'unknown' so i'm trying to over-compensate for what the current cost is.

Also, there is a rule of 55, where you can draw from your 401 before 59.5. Just read up on it, because the 401 has to be the current company you're at.

I love messing around with this: Early Retirement Calculator

Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003488 08/16/19 02:41 PM
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Dan, we're going to need to see all your financials, also need to know the ages of your children and where they are most likely to go to college and grad school. With all that info in front of us, we can throw down some chicken bones and give you completely worthless advice.

Maybe what would work better for you is not retirement but just a better balance. With the right kind of job, say, one that requires only 35-40 hours a week with hard boundaries around those numbers, and little or no travel, you can gig 2-3 times a week. Do you really need more than that?

I consider myself lucky to have that kind of day job. I could sustain it well into my 60's if I need to, and can play virtually a much music as I want as long as I stay local. Some would say it's a compromise and I wouldn't argue, but as compromises go it's a good one.

My young kids are the biggest thing holding me back musically, but that's a different topic.


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Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003491 08/16/19 02:50 PM
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There’s a life waiting for us that isn’t defined by what we did for a living.
It’s scary at first - who am I if I’m not solely focused on where my paycheck is going to come from. If I’m not a plumber or accountant or music director or whatever. What would you do if you had time? Would you try something else for spare money if you had the back up of saved money for income. What hobbies would you take up. Would you pursue a healthier lifestyle if you had time for the gym, biking, walks? Would you move to more affordable housing or neighborhood? Would you be happy with the freedom or would you get edgy and need to immediately get into a project?

The answers aren’t the same for everyone.
But most would agree, tomorrow isn’t guaranteed so do what’s right for you.
And have a plan.


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Re: OT: when to retire [Re: ElmerJFudd] #3003507 08/16/19 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
There’s a life waiting for us that isn’t defined by what we did for a living.
It’s scary at first - who am I if I’m not solely focused on where my paycheck is going to come from. If I’m not a plumber or accountant or music director or whatever. What would you do if you had time? Would you try something else for spare money if you had the back up of saved money for income. What hobbies would you take up. Would you pursue a healthier lifestyle if you had time for the gym, biking, walks? Would you move to more affordable housing or neighborhood? Would you be happy with the freedom or would you get edgy and need to immediately get into a project?

The answers aren’t the same for everyone.
But most would agree, tomorrow isn’t guaranteed so do what’s right for you.
And have a plan.


good post for a young-in.

We will have our mortgage paid off in 2 years. So we hit near total financial freedom, with no debt. OMG, no debt, how old school Suze Ormond.

We will not have to move from our 5 year new house. Unless our secured gate community succumbs to thug Ville drug land.
We know the warning signs, as crime is common 10 miles away- but these home areas are not secure.

I still have my Amazon store. I consider it a side hustle. Its not a big deal.
I have not noticed or known anyone making a good living or even a decent California living doing gigs. Its completely
off the table financially. Music is a passion.

If I have a concern its the corporate America stock market. But thats another topic but my retirement income has some reliance on a decent stock market.

Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003514 08/16/19 05:05 PM
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I say, "do it if you can afford it". The clock ticks so much faster as the years progress.

I'm actually starting early retirement as of the end of this month. (I just hit 61) Gave it a lot of thought. Figured I can afford it, and all bets are off once you hit 60 as far as possible health issues are concerned. I'm healthy (right now) but who knows what the future has in store for me? I did enough wearin' & tearin' over the years so I figured going for retirement now makes a whole lotta sense. I have no debts and my mortgage was payed off 25 years ago, plus my GAS is minimal these days. (Need to thin the herd a bit actually.) Married - no kids, so I don't have those extra "family costs" to worry about either.

Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003518 08/16/19 05:22 PM
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Retire or just start being more picky about the gigs you take, or maybe take up another aspect of music. I can't imagine not playing something.

I played guitar and bass for about 50 years and last few decades had day jobs but some of them were in music. I finally retired and now my focus is on music, studying music, listening to music, and so on. I recent hit my bucket list age and decided to finally learn to play piano. It's weird being a total beginner on piano, but having decades of musical ideas, but not the facility (yet) to play them. Learning is slower now, but digging it and finally found a piano teacher I like, it was a tough search. So I'm one happy retired person.

The thing is I'm not one of those people who wants to travel and do things the average person thinks about when they retire, I think that the key doing what makes YOU happy. Maybe you are tired of playing, I've run into a few retirees like that, they barely play at home and won't leave their house to play unless a good sum of money is involved and jamming or just playing for fun is not fun to them. You have to figure out what "blows your skirt up" and do it.

Re: OT: when to retire [Re: Konnector] #3003520 08/16/19 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Konnector
I say, "do it if you can afford it". The clock ticks so much faster as the years progress.

I'm actually starting early retirement as of the end of this month. (I just hit 61) Gave it a lot of thought. Figured I can afford it, and all bets are off once you hit 60 as far as possible health issues are concerned. I'm healthy (right now) but who knows what the future has in store for me? I did enough wearin' & tearin' over the years so I figured going for retirement now makes a whole lotta sense. I have no debts and my mortgage was payed off 25 years ago, plus my GAS is minimal these days. (Need to thin the herd a bit actually.) Married - no kids, so I don't have those extra "family costs" to worry about either.



Some similarities. And you point out key statements .. why wait for retirement if you can have quality of life now ?

Working for corporations past 61 is not quality of life. So why stress out , during these health tricky years with a shit&^ boss ? If you don't need to.

I am married, It does take 2 smart people to plan early retirement.

We have friends in their 60's. They are still supporting their 20/30 something kids to this day. So these folks will work
past 70 due to their kids not having it together.

Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003527 08/16/19 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by J. Dan
All of the most successful bands around here seem close to my age...40s to early 50s. Seems like once you hit 60s you're doing low paying gigs because you just want to play.

It got me wondering, if I was willing to throttle back my expectations of standard of living, how early could I retire so that I could shift focus to music in my final musical years, basically my 50s, which at coming up.


Without getting into any of the money or health issues - if your primary reason for early retirement is so you can play more or better gigs in bands, I would really think twice before you take the plunge. Music and clubs are such a volatile thing, and honestly nothing today is what I thought it would be like 10-15 years ago.

You can't count on anything being there for you when you are ready. it usually works the other way around. The best opportunities in my life have always come at the most awkward and difficult times.

That said, I'm into my first few years of retirement and really enjoying it - but more for hikes in the Cascades and trips to the coast than clubs. I'm out of bands (my choice given the options I had) but actually have fun being a DJ and running a little karaoke here and there. That's adjusting to conditions on the ground to the extreme, but you get the idea.



Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003544 08/16/19 07:12 PM
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Being that you're still in your 50's here's some things to consider.

I'm 64, and this has been the first year I've felt old. I have high cholesterol, which means my heart has to work much harder to do the same thing, cuts down on basic vitality. AFAIK, it's just a matter of time before all of us get clogged arteries. I've got ridiculous numbers for my blood pressure, sometimes approaching 200/100, the healthy place is 120/80. I get winded with very little exertion, it's a real drag. In my late 50s I began getting a beer belly, never had to watch my food intake before, now I do. I'm comfortable sitting in my easy chair watching tv for hours and hours, because I don't have to exert myself. I feel old.

By contrast, I have a brother who's a few years older and his BP is 120/80, and he just ran a half marathon with decent time.

Knowing what I do now, I'd tell my 40 year old self that NOW is the time to get serious and consistent with lifestyle changes, including cardio work outs, putting fruits and veggies at the top of the list way before my preferred savory meals with meat, using my calendar to schedule social time and interaction with family as I tend to self-isolate, and being of low vitality it has made me realize in the last couple of year, for the first time, how lonely and unconnected I feel as a divorced guy who doesn't have family around closer than an 8 hour drive away.


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Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003547 08/16/19 07:28 PM
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The early retirement gurus subscribe to the 4% rule: if you can live each year on 4% of your nest egg, the funds should last nearly indefinitely -- certainly 40-50 years. This theory has its detractors, but if it convinces you, then the equation is simple: you can retire as soon as you save 25 times annual expenses. Even for those who reject the 4% rule, I will advocate for gauging retirement preparedness around actual expenses, not around a percentage of current salary.

Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003550 08/16/19 07:53 PM
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You have not mentioned whether or not you like your job..... Personally, I would prefer to be happy and have less money than to be stressed doing a job I disliked, but maybe it need not be so black and white for you - at least to start with. If you enjoy your job somewhat, are there any opportunities to cut your hours to part time? I know people who work a three day week and love it. It keeps them connected socially to their workmates - which is an aspect of working which is worth giving consideration alongside the financial one - and gently eases them out of the rat race.


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Re: OT: when to retire [Re: Randelph] #3003551 08/16/19 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Randelph
Being that you're still in your 50's here's some things to consider.

I'm 64, and this has been the first year I've felt old. I have high cholesterol, which means my heart has to work much harder to do the same thing, cuts down on basic vitality. AFAIK, it's just a matter of time before all of us get clogged arteries. I've got ridiculous numbers for my blood pressure, sometimes approaching 200/100, the healthy place is 120/80. I get winded with very little exertion, it's a real drag. In my late 50s I began getting a beer belly, never had to watch my food intake before, now I do. I'm comfortable sitting in my easy chair watching tv for hours and hours, because I don't have to exert myself. I feel old.

Kdrive away.




I am Kaiser, which has an excellent wellness program[ I am 67].

With Rx and diet , I have conquered blood pressure and cholesterol.

You are reaching a tipping point at 64 and from what you post.
You need a blood thinner Rx to make sure you don't become a stroke victim.

My advice to you is to get committed to long life health and work those #'s down. Family genetics can bear down on you
but there is much you can do.

Plus you might have A-fib which is going to compound what you already have.

Find a way to get motivated, brother.

Re: OT: when to retire [Re: Morrisseysixman] #3003553 08/16/19 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Morrisseysixman
The early retirement gurus subscribe to the 4% rule: if you can live each year on 4% of your nest egg, the funds should last nearly indefinitely -- certainly 40-50 years. This theory has its detractors, but if it convinces you, then the equation is simple: you can retire as soon as you save 25 times annual expenses. Even for those who reject the 4% rule, I will advocate for gauging retirement preparedness around actual expenses, not around a percentage of current salary.



I am familiar with this and I believe its overly conservative , simply based on life span. I am not interested in leaving my wealth to the cats.
My wife is younger and well covered[with insurance], so I don't have to worry about passing her a huge amount .

My 25 year spreadsheet covers me until 90 years of age. After that, I am on borrowed time. I have no problem facing mortality.
And the plan is to have a quality life into the late 80's.

Sad to say, when I visit Kaiser, I see folks having serious health and mobility issues from mid 60's into their 70's.

I will not be that person.

Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003560 08/16/19 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by J. Dan
the proverbial wrench is insurance considering I'm type I diabetic.


Have you looked into health insurance via a musican's union? I think this is the website for the American Federation of Musicians insurance:
https://www.afminsurance.com/

Can't promise the rate will be the same or lower than what you're paying now but it seems all you have to do is join AFM - don't need to prove you have a job or anything.

Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003563 08/16/19 08:43 PM
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Figuring as a percent of current income I think would be overly conservative since I have a lot more expenses now, paying for private education for my kids along with stuff like dance and sports. Those expenses will go away once the kids are a bit older. Also, I'll want to downsize to a much smaller house.

Some years back, I played in a band where I pulled in $40k/yr just playing Friday and Saturday nights. That certainly wasn't enough to quit my day job and I wouldn't be able to live on it now. One of the reasons I had to leave that band is that I just couldn't swing it with my day job and family life anymore. If I retire at 65. I seriously doubt I'd be able to land something like that. My job has me travelling a lot and is not something where I could cut back hours.

I suppose I could pick up a lower paying job that keeps me local and provides benefits, but I do like my current job.

This isn't something I've planned for up until now, just a thought that crossed my mind after talking to some other musicians along with the fact that a whole bunch of folks at work just took an early retirement package.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003582 08/16/19 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by J. Dan
I do like my current job.

The one thing that strikes me about all this is that I know you are very driven, Dan. So I wonder if you didn't have a day job, would you have enough to do with your life? Would there be enough musical opportunities to keep you busy and happy?


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003587 08/16/19 10:39 PM
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Here a factoid to think about when planning.... On average people live about 15 years after they retire.

Re: OT: when to retire [Re: Docbop] #3003598 08/16/19 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Docbop
Here a factoid to think about when planning.... On average people live about 15 years after they retire.


I 'plan ' to be above average smile

Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003600 08/16/19 11:49 PM
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I've resigned myself to the belief that I'll work until I die or I'm physically unable to do so. laugh

A few years before I "retire" from the day gig, I'm going to open a sports bar.

Of course, the bar it will be outfitted to accommodate live music.

The bar will allow me to do everything I enjoy i.e. playing music, cooking and watching sports.

I will be woking but it won't be for someone else. grin cool


PD

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Re: OT: when to retire [Re: ProfD] #3003603 08/17/19 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ProfD

A few years before I "retire" from the day gig, I'm going to open a sports bar.

looking forward to that, my brother. cheers


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Re: OT: when to retire [Re: Docbop] #3003605 08/17/19 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Docbop
Here a factoid to think about when planning.... On average people live about 15 years after they retire.


A testament to the fact they worked to long... saved and planned too little, or didn’t take good care of themselves all the years they worked. Or all the above.


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Re: OT: when to retire [Re: J. Dan] #3003606 08/17/19 12:29 AM
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Retirement has been a major focus of mine for the last 8 years. For my brothers on this forum, this is worth discussing IMHO.

Everyone's situation is different, all I can do is document my situation, my decisions and why I made them. Your mileage will definitely vary. Bottom line: I am retiring the first week of this November, and it's more positive/exciting than I could possible imagine.

But you have to hear the whole story if you're game ....

To begin with: I now work as an executive for a big software company. Great gig, nice people, good $$$, I get to work from home, etc. Probably the best job I could ever imagine.

That being said, 8 years ago (at age 52) I decided I wanted to retire when 60. Why? I've been continuously employed since age 12, and it want live my last 20+ years without having to worry about working. Life is short. Also, I've noticed in my retiree world is that 75 is sort of the demarcation where it becomes difficult to do what you did before. Including music.

So 10-15 fun years sounds about right. Anything over that is a free bonus.

Like any other big life goal, plan the work -- and work the plan. And I have been assiduously busy.

First big call: at 52, part of the plan was to find better (and better paying) day gigs. Do what you can to build up wealth. I did that.

Second big call: set up your retirement lifestyle before you retire. I moved to Florida while still working. I invested heavily in bands and gear. A killer grand. I got myself a dedicated music house. Oh yes, and get into pickleball. Seriously.

Of course, most debt must be paid off. Kids must be self-sufficient, wife engaged and happy, etc. Indulge your adolescent fantasies (cars, boats, bikes, etc.) while you have decent income and before retirement. Get it all out of your system. Avoid a divorce if at all possible -- they're a hot mess and extremely expensive. I am fortunate in this regard.

Long story about how I moved things around to get ready for retirement over 8 years.

Third big call: set up reliable retirement income. I'm a big fan of the S&P500 index funds as a set-and-forget source of equity growth. Yes, it catches cold once in a while, but (historically) it always gets well and continues to perform. But that's not reliable income.

To hedge the volatility of the stock market, five years ago my wife (with my full participation) set out to build a real estate business: buying modest properties, rehabbing them, and then finding good long-term renters. Through a combination of luck, timing and a bit of skill she's set up a serious fleet of income producing properties which we could easily live off of without having to touch investments, social security, etc. It's also a nice hedge against the equity markets, unless all heck breaks loose.

My wife is 5 years younger than I, so not thinking about retirement as am I. She works maybe 10-15 hours a week on her business (and the business pays her for it), so it keeps her engaged. We've learned so much about building a real estate rental business that I'm hoping to write a blog on everything we've gleaned along the way. Again, not everyone's cup of tea.

Fourth big goal: know your numbers. I have lots of spreadsheets, and enjoy building models. I have 4-5 models that I keep updated. One is a short-term budget for our first few years. Another is a time-series budget to try to capture how our expenses will change over the next 30 years (travel, healthcare, etc.).

One spreadsheet capture current investments. A linked one captures growth over time giving reasonable assumptions. Another one is my doomsday scenario: recession, hurricane damage, etc. And a few more spreadsheets that provide deeper modelling on the dynamics of the real estate portfolio.

Subtract the long-term expense model from the long term investment/income model, and there you have it.

Models can't predict the future, but they can make you feel comfortable that you're somewhat prepared for whatever may come. Other than the Apocalypse, perhaps.

So, back to OP. What worked for me is to have very clear objectives about what I wanted to do, and then set about making it happen. Plan, execute, measure.

Just like any other business.


Life is too short to be playing bad music.

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Home: Bosie 200, Yam AG N3
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Stuff: Stay stands, Key Largo, Vent II, X-Air 18
Re: OT: when to retire [Re: cphollis] #3003610 08/17/19 01:13 AM
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GregC Offline
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Originally Posted by cphollis




Third big call: set up reliable retirement income. I'm a big fan of the S&P500 index funds as a set-and-forget source of equity growth. Yes, it catches cold once in a while, but (historically) it always gets well and continues to perform. But that's not reliable income.


Fourth big goal: know your numbers. I have lots of spreadsheets, and enjoy building models. I have 4-5 models that I keep updated. One is a short-term budget for our first few years. Another is a time-series budget to try to capture how our expenses will change over the next 30 years (travel, healthcare, etc.).

One spreadsheet capture current investments. A linked one captures growth over time giving reasonable assumptions. Another one is my doomsday scenario: recession, hurricane damage, etc. And a few more spreadsheets that provide deeper modelling on the dynamics of the real estate portfolio.

Subtract the long-term expense model from the long term investment/income model, and there you have it.




I also have my retirement in a Vanguard S& P Index fund. It is a reflection of Corporate America. I believe
these large corps will always strive for growth. So its a good place to park your $$. I don't gamble
with individual stocks as I suck at it.

I am also a spreadsheet geek. I like to analyze and work the #'s. I have a 25 year model.

Not everyone has this necessary skill. I have helped friends over the years with setting up retirement planning.
Many folks fail at self sacrifice and planning and investing.

Health care cost is the biggest unknown. I test/update my assumptions every year.

I have the kick back life. My wife will retire at 60. She is prepared to go 61, but we
are pushing for 60. Health care and future quality travel are the biggest factors.

Retire as early as possible. We never can be sure what will happen to us.

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