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I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... #3002611 08/10/19 04:04 PM
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Bucktunes Offline OP
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Since many here would agree, I'll just throw this out there;

With the exception of slap bass, the Minimoog does bass better than a bass guitar! wave

Disclaimer; Although there is no substitute for a live fluent and skilled bassist, for my one man recording projects nothing out-basses the Mini.

There, I said it. smirk Feel free to agree or discuss at will. cool


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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002612 08/10/19 04:14 PM
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I would argue that this is exactly the place to make such an assertion. I love kicking left hand bass, whether its piano, EPs, synth, etc. I've been playing with a really decent bass player for the last year, and while I love playing LH bass, I have to admit that the bass player is much better and more consistent than I am at playing bass. Personally, I love having two bass parts, he plays the more fluid and deeper bass, and I play a higher bass that adds to his playing.


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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002615 08/10/19 04:20 PM
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They are different. When I covered the bass parts in Mojo Filter I played keys probably 85% of the time. I carried my old Fender P-Bass I would use on some things where the Fender had better articulations. Like Free's All Right Now.


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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: CEB] #3002621 08/10/19 04:32 PM
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I generally use my Traveler TB-4P for LH bass while using my NE4D for keys........

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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002622 08/10/19 04:36 PM
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One of the things I love about playing both bass guitar and keyboards is being able to really choose the right approach for the feel, groove, and tone of a song's bassline. John Paul Jones was a huge early influence of mine, but it was probably Stevie Wonder who really made it clear to me how expressive a synth can be as a bass (I guess if you grow up hanging around James Jamerson, the bar is set a little high).


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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002626 08/10/19 04:46 PM
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linwood Offline
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I love it for bass. It sounds great and it's so fast to dial in what I want. I've noticed over the years that I'll use the mini a lot of the time for bass and then over the course of 4 or 5 months I'll start using it less and going for bass guitar samples and I'm not even aware of it. Then one day I'll see it and decide it's time for a tune up. Right after that it's back in most mixes again and the cycle continues.

Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002627 08/10/19 04:48 PM
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Reezekeys Offline
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A little ridiculous to make this assertion don't you think? Wouldn't it depend on the genre of music you're playing? Not saying you can't put a new spin on older styles by using a MMoog bass to substitute for the real thing, but better?

I have a certain interest in this as I'm on a quick tour right now and our bass player had a temporary emergency and can't play. We were set to cancel the remaining gigs and go home, but decided to finish the dates with me playing key bass. I can assure you that a Minimoog bass would NOT be the preferred bass sound, it's a regular electric bass patch I'm using.

Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Reezekeys] #3002637 08/10/19 05:50 PM
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Bucktunes Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Reezekeys
A little ridiculous to make this assertion don't you think?


Not IMO. In a supportive role in original music, it will lay down the bottom end as well as any bass guitar. cool

Quote
Wouldn't it depend on the genre of music you're playing?


To some extent. But since the Minimoog is a synthesizer, it's capable of a wide range of bass tones, not just the cliche synth bass you may be thinking of.


Quote
Not saying you can't put a new spin on older styles by using a MMoog bass to substitute for the real thing, but better?


You could reasonably argue that, hence my opening post. wink I remember back when Gary Wright used Minimoog bass on his Dream Weaver album, and was grilled by numerous bass guitarists asking how he got such a full, round sound. Again, it's not a substitute for a skilled bass guitarist on a tune that more or less features the bass guitar. But nothing beats it for fat low end, IMO. cool


Quote
I can assure you that a Minimoog bass would NOT be the preferred bass sound, it's a regular electric bass patch I'm using.


You might be surprised how well the Mini can emulate a bread & butter finger picked bass guitar sound if that's what you want. Check out Steve Winwood's Roll With It for an example of this. smile


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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002639 08/10/19 06:00 PM
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I have nothing against a MM bass at all, but your post is trolling plain & simple. Enjoy, I have to practice some LH bass lines for a pretty big show in Burbank tomorrow night!

Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002640 08/10/19 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Bucktunes

With the exception of slap bass, the Minimoog does bass better than a bass guitar!


A rhodes does better than acoustic piano.

A B3 does better than a pipe organ.

An EWI does better than a tenor sax.

There are contexts where this may be true, and there are certainly contexts where this is not true. While there is Venn diagram overlap between each of the two choices (yours, and the 3 I suggested), there are lots of areas and applications where each can do things the other can't. This is especially true when the instrument in question is in the hands of an accomplished player.

my 0.02


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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002648 08/10/19 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bucktunes
With the exception of slap bass, the Minimoog does bass better than a bass guitar! wave

I might concur if the Minimoog had velocity sensitivity and aftertouch. I use those (and the squishy bar) all the time when I play keytar (ROMpler) bass. Without those articulations, it seems to me that a MM's timbre might be nice, but articulated musicality would be seriously (um, irredeemably) hampered.


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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Reezekeys] #3002649 08/10/19 06:27 PM
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Bucktunes Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Reezekeys
I have nothing against a MM bass at all, but your post is trolling plain & simple. Enjoy, I have to practice some LH bass lines for a pretty big show in Burbank tomorrow night!


If that's what you want to call it, go ahead. idk My intention was to initiate intelligent discussion and/or debate about a subject we can all relate to. Knock 'em dead at your show tomorrow night! keys


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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Tom Williams] #3002650 08/10/19 06:43 PM
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linwood Offline
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[/quote]
I might concur if the Minimoog had velocity sensitivity and aftertouch.
[/quote]

Mine does. smile

Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002654 08/10/19 06:52 PM
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Why minimoog, or any keyboard/synth, for that matter? Success or failure depends on the player. I used to love that seminal (for me, anyway) Rudess Morgenstein Project recording from the late 90’s. So friggin’ good. I began to take any chance to jam without a bassist just for the freedom of jumping through changes as they occurred to me. With a perceptive drummer, it can be a blast.


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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002656 08/10/19 07:11 PM
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I don't know the minimoog sound well, but when I listen to a walking bass line like the one done by Peter Cetera on Chicago's "Wake Up Sunshine" it *seems* like I hear the pulling on the strings by a finger. Can a minimoog make that happen?

Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002659 08/10/19 08:24 PM
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I think a lot of it is that a minimoog under the fingers will feel like a "real instrument" where as if I'm playing bass samples I might not feel as connected but I can still play an ok bass line. Same goes for playing samples of analog basses. The mini still feels the best and the easiest to program to get the job done. Either that or I'm full of it. lol

Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002662 08/10/19 08:40 PM
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I personally prefer DX7 BASS 1 from ROM 1A and 3A (patch 15 on 1A and 12 on 3A).
Maybe because I like DX7 and D-50 and M1 and SY-77 sounds. As well as 90’s ROMplers.


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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002663 08/10/19 08:46 PM
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linwood Offline
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Remember the Solid Bass patch on the 81z? That was a money maker.

I toy with the idea of putting 2600 filters in my OM8 when I can but this looks like a good way to for another bass voice in here...


Last edited by linwood; 08/10/19 08:52 PM.
Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: linwood] #3002665 08/10/19 08:51 PM
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Bucktunes Offline OP
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Originally Posted by linwood
Quote

I might concur if the Minimoog had velocity sensitivity and aftertouch.


Mine does. smile


Mine, too. That was one of the perks of the reissued Minimoog Model D a few years ago. cool


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Steve
Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002675 08/10/19 10:11 PM
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I agree that for a lot of situations, other instruments can fill for electric bass quite nicely. I use low Rhodes and Hammond. Only bass I really love and don't ever want to substitute is upright bass by a skilled player.


Trumpet player by trade, but fell in love with keys too.
Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002692 08/10/19 11:59 PM
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It would be helpful to hear examples of the OPs tracks with MM bass.

To each their own. I wouldn't use any of the sounds in the video Linwood posted, for the bass part or any part for that matter. I have the iOS Syntronik, but on average there's 1 sound in 30 that I like. It's kinda challenging to audition synth sounds for me, being that I have such a limited range of synth sounds I like, and the ones I don't like, I don't know how to play them for maximum effect, so they don't have a proper audition.

I remember hearing the demo songs on my Motif XS, the way they were able to really bring the sounds to life amply demonstrated that I didn't know how good those sounds could be 'cause I didn't have the chops to bring them to life.

I don't consider the OP as being a troll, more discussion around LH bass is, as Theo might say, tres cool.


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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002696 08/11/19 12:22 AM
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linwood Offline
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You should listen to that filter again. lol

Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002705 08/11/19 01:38 AM
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Not me...at least for the pop and rock covers we play. I've had the pleasure of playing with a couple of very good bassists (among a lot of ok ones) and it really makes a huge difference. Just "frees" the whole band when a good drummer and bassist go to town....by "frees" I mean that you don't feel like you need play all the time if they sound that good on their own....I'd rather leave out the guitar than the bassist frankly, and I have no urge to ever play bass myself, but different strokes!

Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002706 08/11/19 02:00 AM
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I'm with you, Stokely. I'd give anything to have a bass player and drummer show up every day. Man, I'm soooo sick of F#1.

Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002717 08/11/19 05:35 AM
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You can't do this on a Minimoog. wink


Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002722 08/11/19 08:27 AM
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Well, despite our attraction to gear, I would say that concept is most important. I'm sure that this is not an original claim, but I have a friend who always sounds like himself on guitar, no matter what gear he uses. (Maybe because he plays as LAF. :)) It is remarkable. A Minimoog in the wrong hands can sound a bit wussy. In the the right hands, it can be deadly. If you are a preset jockey and you pick the wrong presets, or if you are a programmer who cannot conceive and program the right sounds, any particular instrument is not going to help much. However, if you have a great concept and only have a POS like a Rhodes bass, then you are sunk too.

Steve Vai has an anecdote about Zappa and the importance of one's concept of tone over the equipment that you use to achieve the tone:

"There’s a story that he once told you your tone was like a ham sandwich."

"That was after the first gig I ever did with him. We were having breakfast, and I said, “How was the gig last night? What did you think?” I was looking for advice and criticism. He said, “You know what, I think you’re a pretty good guitar player.” That, right there, was an amazing statement to hear
from him. But then he said, “But your tone sounds like an electric ham sandwich.” That was just Frank’s way of saying I had to work on my tone. By that, he meant that the way you hear yourself, imagine yourself, is the way you’re going to sound. The way you think about the way you play is
going to be represented in what comes out of the amp. It’s not in the gear, it’s in the way you hear yourself."

Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002745 08/11/19 02:41 PM
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There are definitely times when a fat synth bass played with funk and feeling really feels good.

But there are times where a synth bass is just not going to cut it -- Geddy, Flea, P-Nut, Stu Zender... Even songs where pick bass really matters to the song, like in Gimme Three Steps and any punk song.

As both a keyboardist and a bass player, on any given day, I prefer to groove hard with a drummer while I lay it down with the bass guitar.

Last edited by psionic11; 08/11/19 02:45 PM.
Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Reezekeys] #3002746 08/11/19 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Reezekeys
I'm on a quick tour right now and our bass player had a temporary emergency and can't play. We were set to cancel the remaining gigs and go home, but decided to finish the dates with me playing key bass.


Rob - is this with AWB? Are you using your little 5-octave controller with a split for LHB and RH keys?

Cheers, Mike.


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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002768 08/11/19 05:31 PM
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Yea, AWB. I did use my little Roland 61-key guy by itself for the first of the three gigs with me doing key bass. It was a challenge – but I only had three hours notice (and no sound check) to pull it off. At our next gig we rented a Motif for the bass and put it on the lower tier of an Apex stand. That worked a lot better as I had the "full range" of my 5 octave board on top, lol. In a few hours we have our final gig of this tour where I'll have a Motif again.

Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: linwood] #3002784 08/11/19 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by linwood
You should listen to that filter again. lol

OK, re-watched and listened. I saw you? change the VCF filter and resonance quite a bit, but I don't have the experience to know when I'm hearing a good filter without having side-by-side comparisons. I'd be curious to hear your description of that filter.

I'd still be curious to hear the OPs tracks he plays MM bass on.

@ Piktor,
That was an interesting point you made. Some people are so profoundly musical they can make practically anything sound good. But it's also true that most beginners are working with a primitive sound pallette, it know it has taken me a long time to 'hear' the quality and capability of the many sounds available to us as keyboardists, and I would argue that good quality instruments make a HUGE difference. After playing a mediocre flute in Europe for 5 years as I traveled around, I was shocked at how magnificent a really good flute sounded. Same with literally any instrument. Personally I'm always driven by the sound, and when I think back on the incredibly bad sounds of my Kawai K1 (2?) back in 1988, I'm thankful for having a NS.

By the way, what does LAF stand for? Looked it up, there are literally 53 possibilities. I'm guessing you meant Like A Fox.


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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Randelph] #3002791 08/11/19 07:29 PM
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I'm guessing "loud as f--k."


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Not a synth, per se, but I'm absolutely LOVING using a Roli Seaboard for fretless bass: either electric or upright. It's just so juicy to slide into notes a little. I'll be borrowing a Sub37 here in a few weeks, I'll try routing the Seaboard into it, that should be fun!


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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: EricBarker] #3002824 08/11/19 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by EricBarker
Not a synth, per se, but I'm absolutely LOVING using a Roli Seaboard for fretless bass: either electric or upright. It's just so juicy to slide into notes a little. I'll be borrowing a Sub37 here in a few weeks, I'll try routing the Seaboard into it, that should be fun!

Please report back on how that goes. I’ve been itching to try using the Seaboard to control a real analog synth.

I’ll agree it’s the perfect keyboard instrument for playing bass sounds, especially fretless. It presents the same challenge as a fretless, too: you have to watch your tuning or you’re liable to make a mess! Not that I learned this the hard way or anything...


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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3002825 08/11/19 11:36 PM
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I like the Minimoog for "Minimoog bass"

For emulating bass guitar, I prefer the Moog Source or Voyager. Reason: hard sync.

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Originally Posted by The Real MC
I like the Minimoog for "Minimoog bass"

For emulating bass guitar, I prefer the Moog Source or Voyager. Reason: hard sync.


Voyager is dope. puff


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Ed A.] #3002857 08/12/19 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed A.
You can't do this on a Minimoog. wink




I can't do that on the bass either. allhail


Dan

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Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: MathOfInsects] #3002863 08/12/19 06:20 AM
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MOI, yup. Sorry for not being clear.

Randelph, I do agree that the sound and/feel of an instrument can have an impact on one's performance and either inspire or constrict the flow of creative ideas. Sometimes, a particular instrument might make it easier to accomplish the job, but if you have reasonable technique, a solid concept and at least a reasonable instrument (and some programming skills), there is a good chance that you can get the job done in such a way that everyone else would be happy with your performance, even if you did not have much fun. This is not a revelation, as I'm pretty sure that everyone who has had to deal with backline gear knows this. Of course, I'm not talking about players who rely on lots of complex synth systems and sequencer programming, etc.

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I agree for most things. Some things a bass guitar just nails better. I saw a funk band recently where the guy on bass was just using a Moog. It was amazing.

Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Reezekeys] #3003286 08/14/19 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Reezekeys
Yea, AWB. I did use my little Roland 61-key guy by itself for the first of the three gigs with me doing key bass. It was a challenge – but I only had three hours notice (and no sound check) to pull it off. At our next gig we rented a Motif for the bass and put it on the lower tier of an Apex stand. That worked a lot better as I had the "full range" of my 5 octave board on top, lol. In a few hours we have our final gig of this tour where I'll have a Motif again.

But your role changes, right? Because the bass has to be there. That becomes Job One. Now you’re the bass player who plays some keyboard parts. Do you see it that way? I hope the situation gets back to normal.


The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin
Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Synthaholic] #3003298 08/15/19 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Synthaholic
Originally Posted by Reezekeys
Yea, AWB. I did use my little Roland 61-key guy by itself for the first of the three gigs with me doing key bass. It was a challenge – but I only had three hours notice (and no sound check) to pull it off. At our next gig we rented a Motif for the bass and put it on the lower tier of an Apex stand. That worked a lot better as I had the "full range" of my 5 octave board on top, lol. In a few hours we have our final gig of this tour where I'll have a Motif again.

But your role changes, right? Because the bass has to be there. That becomes Job One. Now you’re the bass player who plays some keyboard parts. Do you see it that way? I hope the situation gets back to normal.

You are 100% correct, I had to make sure the low end was happening and locked in with the drums - it's the Average White Band, so the funk has to be there! Not to mention that our drummer, Rocky Bryant, plays with the best bass players in the business, guys like Will Lee and James Genus. So I did feel the pressure! In that case the keyboard parts do have to take a back seat but luckily for me, many of the songs use fairly simple chording and are not specific as to lines and/or voicings needing to be played a certain way. However, there are a few tunes where I play a second guitar part and those are very specific. I had a few "oops" moments as I adjusted to playing two syncopated and different rhythmic figures with each hand! What didn't help was the abysmal sound on our last gig (for us on stage, not out in the audience). It made things a lot harder.

To kinda get closer to the topic, I noticed how I had to adjust the bass lines from what might typically be played on a bass guitar. Though the patch I used responded to velocity, it was nothing like the expressiveness a good bass guitar player gets using their fingers on a fretboard and their fingers & thumb (or a pick) on strings (this is why I said what I did regarding the original statement by the op. Also, I'm old, so I've listened to a lot of music featuring real basses, and I also play a real bass!). I went for more of what I consider an "Anthony Jackson" approach. He doesn't do any slapping & popping, and his dynamics tend to be very even – so this was easier to emulate on a keyboard. IMO, his "funkyness" comes from how he gets on and off a note, and the "holes" he leaves. I hope I'm explaining it correctly. I've aways been a big fan of his and that's the kind of sound I go for anytime I do left-hand bass.

At this point the situation looks like it will get back to normal – at some point in the future. Unfortunately we've had to cancel a 3-week tour that would have taken us to England, Scotland, France, Belgium and the Netherlands. Hopefully it will be rescheduled for sometime next year. Anyone need a keyboard player next month? smile

Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Reezekeys] #3003540 08/16/19 07:07 PM
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I know exactly what you mean. The placement of note-ons/note-offs can greatly influence the funk. I was under the impression that a night of AWB would include a lot of clav, and therefore that would suffer or go missing if you had to concentrate on key bass. I’ve done key bass in bands past and don’t enjoy it, specifically because I cease to be a functioning keyboardist, relegated to “textures”. wink


The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin
Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Bucktunes] #3003580 08/16/19 09:58 PM
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There's only one song we do where I have a clav part, and we nixed it for the key bass shows. Our sax player plays aux keys and he does some clav stuff on other songs.

I actually do enjoy playing key bass although I wouldn't want to do it full-time. In my misspent youth I booked a gig in the US Virgin Islands where the money was so bad I decided to play LH bass to save the cost of another player. I played five sets a night, six nights a week for a month straight – twice. That's where I got any LH bass chops I have. We played James Brown, Edgar Winter, Earth Wind & Fire, Bobby Caldwell, etc... way more funk/r&b than rock. It was a blast.

AWB has two shows next week where I'll get another shot at key bass: Las Vegas on Saturday the 24th at Sunset Station Casino, and Sunday in Saratoga CA (near San Jose & Cupertino) at the Mountain Winery with Tower Of Power. As much as I say I enjoy it, I sincerely hope it's my last time playing LH bass with this band – we want Alan Gorrie back!

Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: Ed A.] #3003636 08/17/19 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed A.
You can't do this on a Minimoog. wink


[quote=Ed A.]You can't do this on a Minimoog. wink


smile
Jaco is my man....

Funny story....many years ago I had a 5+ hour “wet” hang with Zawinul...
We talked about everything....so I ask him “who is/was your favorite bass player”? (totally
expecting him to answer Jaco)....he looks a bit surprised and “dissapointed”
and then with both hands points at himself....hahahahaha....
I almost fell out of the chair....
He was probably the only guy who could get away with a comment like that....
He WAS a monster on LH bass

Back to the Mini....yeah...it’s the “king” for bass....
You can can do surprisingly good electric bass guitar sounds on it...
I even managed to dial a really great sounding acoustic bass sound
on mine years ago....pray to god that I didn’t lose the pic of that one....”

Last edited by analogholic; 08/17/19 06:21 AM.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer
Re: I may be kicking a hornets' nest here, but... [Re: analogholic] #3003637 08/17/19 06:56 AM
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Haha, great story about Zawinul Analogholic!


Rudy

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