Motion Sound KP612S vs. KP610S?

[BenWaB3]

I posted this reply on the Clonewheel Forum group on Facebook. Here is the copy of that post:

 

Thanks for the review Mitch!! I'm still kinda on the fence between the 610 & 612. The lt. hand bass boost on the 612 is a plus but most of my jobs playing that are fairly low volume or "bassy" rooms so that I can even get by with the Spacestation. Do either the 610 or 612 come with castors as standard or is that an extra cost option for both? Thanks again.

[Mitch Towne]

The 612 comes standard with casters. They can be added to the 610 for $40.

[Mitch Towne]

Thanks Mitch!

 

One question:

Do the 408 and 610 also have cooling fans inside?

 

That's one of the things that I do not like very much

on my KP500S.....

 

 

There is no fan noise in the new ones because there are no fans! The new amps are so efficient that they don't generate the heat the old amps used.

[zxcvbnm098]

I had a FANTASTIC time at Sweetwater this week! The Sweetwater campus is amazing and everyone is incredibly nice and knowledgable. Jeff Bollinger, head of Motion Sound, and I went there to do a demo of the new KP lineup (612, 610 and 408) for the sales reps so they would be familiar with the product and so they could hear first hand how great these amps sound and what the differences between them are.

 

Here is my general overview:

 

KP-408 - In my opinion, this is a fantastic amp for anyone who is playing piano, EPs, synths, pads, etc. It is loud and clear. I used this one as the start of the demo because the amount of sound this amp puts out is very impressive (the expressions of the sales reps confirmed that). I would not recommend the 408 to a player who needed a lot of bass in their parts. I wouldn't want to do a jazz organ gig with it, for example. But for anything short of that, this amp is great

 

KP610 - The next step up from the 408, with 10 inch speakers. Obviously, the larger speaker surface offers a bigger sound, and the 610 projects more than the 408. However, here is where it gets interesting. The 610 and the 612 have a Speak-On output that pulls an additional 250 watts to drive an additional passive sub. So, you have 250 per side in stereo AND an additional 250 for the sub. This makes the 610 a very attractive amp for a modular system - take the 610 when you don"t need as much bass, bring a sub when you need MOAR BASE!!! (Seriously, though, this is a big feature

 

KP-612 - The big one. Huge sound and plenty of bass. I would easily use this one for jazz organ gigs with pedals. Here are the main differences between the 612 and the KP500 -

 

1. The 612 is a few pounds lighter (56 lbs vs 49).

2. The new MS amps have an improved crossover. One user on this forum who has both says the 612 is warmer and rounder. I haven"t put them side by side yet, but I will next week. I"ll be able to speak more about that then.

3. The Speak-On output.

4. The 612 is front-ported, while the 500 is rear ported. This gives you a more direct forward sound. Those are the things that come to mind.

 

So, the bottom line for me is that all of these amps are fantastic and I really wish there had been something like this 10-15 years ago. Motion Sound is definitely full-steam ahead and has a great future. This company is a labor of love for Jeff and he really cares about the user experience. You can feel good about the support you'll receive after the purchase.

 

Let me know if you have any questions.

 

Thanks for all of this Mitch! I appreciate it.......these all look tempting!

[Mitch Towne]

Dave,

 

I confirmed that the 408 is 40lbs.

 

Mitch

[JohnCorda]

 

There is no fan noise in the new ones because there are no fans! The new amps are so efficient that they don't generate the heat the old amps used.

 

I certainly hope so, my KBR-3D only overheats now so it is my rehearsal amp with an external fan on it. And my KP500 gets a little hot in the back sometimes. A lot of hot outdoor festivals during the summer!

 

1. The 612 is a few pounds lighter (56 lbs vs 49).

 

Both the 500 and 612 are listed as 49 lbs on the Motion Sound website.

 

Having said that, I had already purchased a 612 from Sweetwater, should be another week or so.

And your comments confirm what I needed to know.

Plenty of bass, and all the other good things too. Psyched to get my hands on it.

Will be selling my 500 for a good price soon.

[AnotherScott]

I have the KP 610S.

...

I used to use 2 EV ZXA1s. This sounds just as good with less gear to lugg around.

 

Weight is reasonable to 43 lbs. I did end up putting casters on it although it is borderline whether they are needed.

If the 610S sounds "just as good" as a pair of ZXa1, why not stick with the ZXa1's? 19 lbs each, so even combined, that's only 38 lbs, and easy to carry as two separate 19 lb pieces. And the pair goes for $1k, which is $400 less than the KP. Okay, you have to add the cost and weight of the mixer, but with a small mixer, the EV will still end up cheaper and lighter.

 

I guess my point is, is there any reason to pay the "premium" for a KP *other* than the convenience of having it all on one box, and the associated reduced setup/breakdown time? (Not that that can't be reason enough!)

[BigJPatton]

The 610S is going to sound better than two ZXa1, better bass with the 10" speakers.

 

But I'd rather carry a touch more weight in a single package than deal with separate boxes and a mixer, also no powered speakers have ever sounded great IMO for electric pianos and organ, and I've tried many, these MS amps do those instruments right.

 

 

[DaBous]

I have the KP 610S.

...

I used to use 2 EV ZXA1s. This sounds just as good with less gear to lugg around.

 

Weight is reasonable to 43 lbs. I did end up putting casters on it although it is borderline whether they are needed.

If the 610S sounds "just as good" as a pair of ZXa1, why not stick with the ZXa1's? 19 lbs each, so even combined, that's only 38 lbs, and easy to carry as two separate 19 lb pieces. And the pair goes for $1k, which is $400 less than the KP. Okay, you have to add the cost and weight of the mixer, but with a small mixer, the EV will still end up cheaper and lighter.

 

I guess my point is, is there any reason to pay the "premium" for a KP *other* than the convenience of having it all on one box, and the associated reduced setup/breakdown time? (Not that that can't be reason enough!)

 

It's certainly a matter of preference - they both sound great. I kept the ZXA1s as I have an occasional need for a small PA system.

 

The reasons I prefer to use the 610s are:

 

Single box convenience.

Built in mixer - 2 channels with 4 stereo inputs with EQ.

Stereo and mono outs to FOH systems. ( I play clubs with both - sometimes you don't know ahead of time which you will need )

Easier to fit on small stages ( my main band is 6 pieces so space is important ) - the ZXA1s needed poles which take up more stage space.

 

But the best part is that there is now a single box keyboard amp that competes soundwise with the dual powered speaker setup.

 

Whichever you prefer it is nice to have the single box option without sound compromise......

 

 

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

the ZXA1s needed poles which take up more stage space.

Yeah, poles are a pain. All speakers benefit from being off the floor, though. Do you do something to lift your 610s off the floor?

 

[DaBous]

the ZXA1s needed poles which take up more stage space.

Yeah, poles are a pain. All speakers benefit from being off the floor, though. Do you do something to lift your 610s off the floor?

 

I use a guitar amp stand. Gets it about 2ft off the floor and angled back slightly. Seems to work fine......

[Mitch Towne]

Plus, the 610 has the Speakon output that can run a passive sub if you want even more bass.

[JeffKeys]

Speaking of these units, I have a 612. I love the unit, but I had a buzz on the expand. After a conversation with Jeff of MS, he sent me a label and had it back to me in under 2 weeks working perfectly. I"ve had many MS systems and never had a problem, but it"s nice to know that if a problem arrises, there is first rate customer service waiting in the wings. Props to MS for their products and customer service! Btw, the amp is really incredible!

[Al Coda]

Plus, the 610 has the Speakon output that can run a passive sub if you want even more bass.

 

When I´ve read the specs, I understood,- when connecting a passive speaker to that connector, it gets it´s power from only 1 side of the stereo power amp built in.

Means,- when the internal speaker´s load is 8Ohms and you connect an additional 8Ohms speaker, that poweramp runs w/ a 4Ohm load while the other internal amp/spkr/tweeter combo runs on 8Ohms still.

I guess the left and right internal speakers won´t be exact equal level anymore, once the passive additional speaker is connected since dividing load by factor 2 doesn´t mean exact double output-power w/ (modern) solid state amps,- MOSFET ´til ClassD.

In general, I dislike such solution (except there´s a compensation built in) and wished they had a, derived from preamp and already LP-filtered balanced mono-output for an active sub,- leaving the internal amp/spkr (load) configuration as it is.

 

I really wonder why manufacturers always come up w/ such "cheapo solution" mistakes for in general great products.

Aspen´s mistake for SSv3 was "unbalanced stereo-line inputs" and "full range" mono out for a sub,- and Motionsound now relies on a passive sub instead offering an all new designed active sub matching their new amps.

 

Anyway, methinks 2x12" delivers enough low end for stage monitoring and need for a sub will be rare.

 

B.t.w., I myself, I´d be highly interested in a different variation of these amps.

I like the concept of a single 2-way spkr cab for stereo image incl. "on demand" MS 3D expander.

But because I´d prefer using my own (multi-channel) mixer for keys, I´d prefer to get such single cab solution w/ just only 2 balanced +4dB XLR line-inputs (w/ parallel outs to PA).

I really hope they will come up w/ such model.

 

A.C.

 

[AnotherScott]

Aspen´s mistake for SSv3 was "unbalanced stereo-line inputs" and "full range" mono out for a sub

If there's only going to be one mono out on an SS3, I think full range is better. It supports the alternate configuration of pairing it with a full range high quality speaker for highest piano quality, while still providing the spacious "stereo everywhere" effect, an approach which a number of people on the monster thread endorse. And lots of powered subs have built in crossovers anyway. Additional cost to build in a crossover many won't need and that would actually prevent others from using the speaker the way they'd like to would probably be a worse choice. Of course, ideally, it's something switchable (or two separate jacks) so everyone can get what they want. But I would not call the current approach a mistake.

 

But because I´d prefer using my own (multi-channel) mixer for keys, I´d prefer to get such single cab solution w/ just only 2 balanced +4dB XLR line-inputs (w/ parallel outs to PA).

though a big part of the appeal is that it's all in one, and part of that is, for many people, not needing an additional mixer.

 

 

 

[Al Coda]

If there's only going to be one mono out on an SS3, I think full range is better. It supports the alternate configuration of pairing it with a full range high quality speaker for highest piano quality, while still providing the spacious "stereo everywhere" effect, an approach which a number of people on the monster thread endorse.

 

There are enough solutions enabling both,- full range or LP-filtered mono-out while HP filtering the internal 10" woofer when mono-out to a sub is in use.

Simple switches and a few passive components did it for the user.

 

And lots of powered subs have built in crossovers anyway.

 

Very misleading.

Even when a sub comes w/ a lowpass filter, that doesn´t mean there´s also a highpass filter for mid/hi top-outs included.

Some have, but not all.

And when they have, there´s the question if it´s user adjusable or fixed frequency.

Fixed frequency often means you have to use mid/hi tops from same manufacturer then.

 

Additional cost ...

 

I just only say what I´d prefer,- a multi purpose solution,- and I´d pay for, like always.

Good gear was never cheap,- we all know that, no ?

 

though a big part of the appeal is that it's all in one, and part of that is, for many people, not needing an additional mixer.

 

The MotionSound combo amps are nice but only 2 independent channels (w/ 4 inputs).

I always need more channels but not a keyboard-PA on stage,- so a single cab solution w/ just only the stereo power-amp for stage monitoring would be ideal.

I´m pretty sure I´m not the only one being interested in such device.

I don´t say they shall replace their combos w/ such device.

 

Another option would be upgrading the combo w/ an additional stereo +4dB XLR line input going directly to the poweramp,- which makes a much more all-in-one solution.

 

The KP 612S is already GBP 1.549,- (EUR 1.681,- / USD 1.885,-) plus shipping.

C´mon,- they can do it.

It´s just only an add. 3rd (!) stereo-input on the summing stage of the actual internal dual channel mixer.

The realization is a joke,- and they can ditch the speakon output to sub because it´s already possible to use the stereo XLR line-outs for that purpose, then use the sub´s throughputs to go to FOH.

 

A.C.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

they can ditch the speakon output to sub because it´s already possible to use the stereo XLR line-outs for that purpose, then use the sub´s throughputs to go to FOH.

I think the idea of the output to sub is that it uses the existing amplification, so you can use a cheaper/lighter subwoofer. Your approach (which you could still do, of course) would be for a powered subwoofer.

 

As for the mixer, I like the idea of built-in mixer, though I'd prefer a different setup. I'd like four stereo inputs, each with just three controls: level, bass roll-off, and 3D expansion amount. (And I'd keep the current feature of having one of those inputs double as a mic input.) A simple master reverb and EQ (or effects loop so these could be added externally) would be useful too.

[JohnCorda]

So I received my 612 and I'm having a tough time getting the sound dialed in. It is VERY bright - treble to the moon. I have to wonder if there's something wrong with it. Electric pianos and synths sound ok, but piano sounds overly bright and organ sounds kinda harsh. I have to dial back the treble by a lot and boost the bass. I didn't have to do this with the KP500SN. I did A/B comparisons and while the KP500 doesn't have the definition or quite the volume headroom, it does have the low end and reasonable treble. The 612 has a lot of clarity but way too bright for my tastes. Or again, maybe it needs to be broken in, or there's something off with mine. I have a Nord Stage 2 and an XK1C. I even went through the time consuming process of loading in different large (XL) piano samples from the Nord library online to see what would work well with the amp, and none of the pianos sound right.

 

Tried in my carpeted basement studio/rehearsal area and at a gig last night and at a decent size bar room stage. It was a struggle all night to enjoy the sound of it. I may have to return it, it's that bad.

 

I've had two Motion Sound amps over the last 15 years or so. KBR-3D (which admittedly piano doesn't sound great on but everything else was stellar) and the KP500SN and this hasn't been an issue before.

[MPN21]

So I received my 612 and I'm having a tough time getting the sound dialed in. It is VERY bright - treble to the moon.../quote]

Please keep us posted as you do more tests with your 612. If you have a CPS V3, I wonder how the two compare with each other.

 

[BenWaB3]

I've used mine for 3 jobs at this point & haven't found the treble to be a problem. Actually last night I was trying to keep the bass in control but that particular room is a difficult one acoustically. My main problem is that it's just so honkin' big. I should have gotten 408 & used a sub on the few jobs where one would be needed.

[JohnCorda]

Then I'm wondering if mine is defective? It just doesn't sound right. Still wasn't good at rehearsal the other day and I have a show outside today so I'll see what happens.

[JeffKeys]

I"ve been using mine since June and I, too, have had no trouble with the treble. In fact, it"s the best amp sonically that I"ve ever used. If I was you, I"d call Jeff at MS. I was having a problem and he talked me through it. Turns out I needed a new crossover. I sent it directly to MS and they had it back to me in no time sounding great. Their customer service is great!

[Al Quinn]

I bought the KP-610S about a week ago and love it! APs and everything else sound wonderful: very clear, pleasing, and powerful. It's everything a keyboard amp should be!

 

I haven't used it on a gig yet, which of course is the ultimate test, but I'm expecting it will perform great. I like how it consolidates two speakers, two horns, and a mixer with a spatial effect into one box of reasonable weight and price. Simplicity of placement, schlep, setup, and breakdown is very appealing. I don't think the XLR outputs are isolated, so unless someone tells me differently, I'll still bring my direct box to gigs (not a big deal).

 

I bought the 610 rather than the 612 because the 610 at 43 lbs. is about the maximum amount of weight I'm willing to move (at 61 I'm trying to be careful not to overdo it). I couldn't bring myself to buy the 408 as it only shaves off 3 lbs. from the 610 while likely sounding less full.

 

 

[zxcvbnm098]

Does anyone know if MS will be at NAMM?

[Al Quinn]

At this point, I"ll take the KP-610S to gigs rather than the pair of TT08As or the TT08A / SS V3 combo. They all sound excellent. For me, the differences lie more with logistics than sound. The TT08As don"t work well for me in tight spaces: where do I put them so that they don"t require much space, don"t blow me over with sound, and don"t cause my bandmates discomfort? The TT08A / SS V3 combo solves the tight space problem but once in a while the SS V3 side-firing speaker causes a bandmate discomfort. Then they turn up which cause the entire band to turn up and we end up sounding worse.

 

Motion Sound recommends placing the KP-610S about two feet off the ground and about six feet behind the player. I tried this and love it. Although, as I mentioned previously, I haven"t tried it on a gig yet. Then there"s the obvious differences in the amount of cables and setup between the different speaker/amp choices.

 

As far as sound quality, I"ll setup the TT08As soon and let you know what I think. I"m going to place them right on top of the KP-610S with the speakers at the same angle to eliminate the small footprint advantage that the KP610S has. This seems like the fairest way to do it. Yeah the TT08As sound crazy good up on poles at the proper height and separation but it"s often impractical to use them this way and sometimes I don"t know in advance if that setup is viable for a particular gig.

 

According to Mitch casters can be added for $40. Mine doesn"t have casters.

[Al Quinn]

I used the KP-610S on a classic rock gig last Saturday night. The amp sounded great! It wasn't as good a test as I expected it to be because there was no drummer and (as one might expect) we played at a medium volume. Therefore, I didn't get to hear how the KP-610S sounds at louder volumes in a band context.

 

Dave, I compared the KP-610S to the TT08A pair yesterday. The TT08As were a bit clearer but the KP-601S sounds very clear and pleasing to me. As I mentioned previously I'll be using the KP-610S on future gigs unless I know there's space for me to setup the TT08As right were I want them.

 

I recorded my comparison test yesterday and created a short video. I have pretty good recording gear and I think this is a good representation of what I heard. I placed the pair of mic's near my ears. Curious what you and others think.

 

[video:youtube]

[Al Quinn]

Yeah there is a noticeable difference and, of course for roughly double the price (for the TT08A pair), it"s really not a fair comparison. I have trouble finding the words to explain the differences I hear. 'Smoother' is a good description Dave. I"m not sure I hear the 'hint of harshness' but I believe you have more discerning ears than me. I judge gear on whether it inspires or distracts â and everything In between. I"m pleased that, for me, both of these amp setups provide a pleasing and inspiring experience.

[PianoMan51]

The TT"s are more detailed. But we"re already on the edge of spending double to get 7% improvement. If I had the KP I might boost the mid-highs by 2dB and drop the mid-lows 2dB to better match the TT"s response.

 

Thanks for this video. It"s rare that we get to clearly hear the sound differences between speakers specifically for digital piano.

[Kurzfan]

I also am in trade off RCF TT08 vs Motionsound KP408s.

 

Until now I did not have the chance to hear Motionsound (very hard to find here in Europe) but yesterday I had the chance to play my CP4 on a couple of RCF"s.

 

They indeed sound superb, I can get rid of the 'muddy" sound often heard on ac piano,

But to get the best out of the RCF, I also needed to tweak mid-high and mid-low similar as PianoMan stated.

The CP4 has 5 band EQ so it was easy to do.

 

Of coarse, fine tuning is also depending on acoustics in the test location.

 

Still wondering where to find Motionsound here

[esfusion]

Thanks Al, great demo. My vote is for the TT08s, and I think the difference is in the more nuanced transients and mids. I get spoiled listening to my Forte on Adam A7s, which also offer great definition on the mids (although not viable, of course, for playing out). FWIW I also find my $250 iLoud Micro Monitors reproduce my Forte 7 and SP6 with soul satisfying fidelity. I have even used them in low volume jam sessions. My SSV3, for all of it's attributes, just doesn't reproduce the APs, At low volumes the mids seem muffled, at higher volumes, exaggerated. I think the transients are more an issue than a less-than-flat EQ.