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To Grand or not to Grand...


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I got my 20 X 20 project/recording studio under construction at the moment. Initially I had a 6' to 7' Grand Piano in mind, but now I have doubts. It's not like I can fold it and put it in the closet. I'm a pianist and would love to get a nice Grand but friends tell me I should go for an upright and have that extra space. I won't be recording a band...or have band rehearsals in there. Baby Grand is an option as well, but then again if I go for a 5' baby grand, what's another foot or two to just go for the real thing. What do you guys think?
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My 2 cents.

A nice upright beats a lesser grand, and indeed for some music, can be preferable.

If your prime concern is recording the piano, it is easier (though still a science) to record a grand. And if you want the sound of a grand piano, well......

 

If you wish to have the piano to play for your own enjoyment and growth, but don't want to eat the space, then you can get a quality upright for much less than a quality grand.

 

If you decide you want a grand, go the extra mile and get at least a 6'. Otherwise, and I'm sure there are exceptions, and people that love their Baby Grands, but you are still sacrificing almost as much space, and are not reaping the full benefits that make that sacrifice worthwhile.

 

 

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I haven't found a baby grand that sounds ' big enough '

 

I am not sure about an Upright, unless you really like a Yamaha U3, for example.

 

IMO, I would only spend the money on grand 6 ft and over. IOW, go all the way or not at all

If you don't have the space, I don't like the compromises in your O/p.

 

Map out if a 7 foot grand is a squeeze for your 20 x 20.

 

Your requirements aren't deep. You are working on your own stuff, from what I read.

 

Make sure your short term plans are also your long term, when dropping all this coin on a serious

instrument.

Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ?

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That"s a nice idea. I think it matters also what type of music you enjoy to play and record and how happy you imagine you might be with your micing system and captured quality of the chosen instrument.

 

A Yamaha N3 is smaller physically than a baby grand, has turn it on and play convenience and also makes an excellent controller for the plethora of expertly recorded sample libraries being sold as software instruments. The N2 is a smaller footprint yet. And Kawai has the Novus NV-10. Or also the Yamaha NU1. Also the Yamaha Silent pianos can be played acoustically and have midi performances recorded to USB and brought over to your DAW to trigger software pianos. If you have dealers around you. Be sure to play these and see how you feel they compare to the acoustics you have your eye on. Not sure what your budget is. As Tim suggested a rental period would be a great first step (and maybe the dealer would allow you to apply to your purchase when ready).

 

Enjoy!

 

 

 

 

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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I purchased a (relatively) inexpensive baby grand (152cm) a little while back. Fits nicely in my lounge room. A "proper" grand piano would not, nor would it have fit my budget.

 

It sounds lovely and the action plays beautifully - as a consequence I play it much more than I ever did my old upright, which was lacking in both departments.

 

It looks a lot nicer too. While this is not something I've ever cared about with digital keyboards, pianos are imposing pieces of furniture as well as musical instruments. Wives must be kept onside! This may not be a consideration in the recording studio - unsure if it's home/away/secret cave.

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A couple of considerations regarding grand vs. upright. The action on a grand is more even because the keys are reset by gravity while an upright requires springs for key reset. Springs tend to fatigue over time so even if the action is initially well regulated it will require periodic maintenance and still not perform as evenly as a quality grand. To play repeated notes on an upright the key needs to completely return to rest position. On a grand the key only needs to return about a third of the way so a grand can be played faster with a finer degree of control. If space considerations outweigh these factors get the best tallest upright possible as these can sound as good or better than many baby grands.
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I got my 20 X 20 project/recording studio under construction at the moment. Initially I had a 6' to 7' Grand Piano in mind, but now I have doubts. It's not like I can fold it and put it in the closet. I'm a pianist and would love to get a nice Grand but friends tell me I should go for an upright and have that extra space. I won't be recording a band...or have band rehearsals in there. Baby Grand is an option as well, but then again if I go for a 5' baby grand, what's another foot or two to just go for the real thing. What do you guys think?

As an owner of both a large upright (142cm) and small grand piano (155cm), I'd prefer the grand as a recording piano, even though my Upright has a richer bass (the bass strings are about 6 inches longer than on my grand). 2 reasons: more flexibility in mic positioning with a grand piano, and a small grand is not going to dominate a 20x20 room - space or sound-wise.

 

Both my pianos are made by Richard Lipp & Sohns (Stuttgart) and date from 1924 for the grand and 1928 for the upright. Fantastic pianos, and very high build quality & materials (the grand has the original Renner action). Apart from regular tunings, I've had voicing & damper felt work done on the upright, and hammer reshaping, pin block repairs and pin replacements on the grand, which was well worth the investment.

 

If you're thinking an upright is more suitable, I'd suggest one of 125-130cm or more in height and no smaller (unless you're going for a particular 'character' sound). There are many high quality old uprights which can be bought privately for next to nothing. Many people don't want them anymore, but knowing a trust worthy piano technician to inspect it before buying is money well spent. Expect to spend some $$$ on an original condition piano of this age afterwards though. There are many fully reconditioned older high quality German & American uprights (1920's-1950's) in piano workshops in my city which I'd buy any day over a new Yamaha U1 or U3 or equivalent Kawai etc. and for roughly half the cost.

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Agree that the action of a grand may be preferable - gravity-return rather than spring-return feels much more natural to me. A 5'3" baby grand would be a lovely thing to own. (Full disclosure: I own a 4'3" baby - it's too small for a truly coherent bass tone, some of the hammers have gone a bit soft, and the pedal squeaks, but it beats any of the uprights I played recently in terms of finger-to-ear connection).

 

Cheers, Mike.

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Also how important is recording vs just playing acoustically because each one requires a different piano. For recording you want a brighter and punchier sounding piano to record well. A piano that is too full with lots of low end can sound muddy recorded. Also when recording if the instrument is bright sounding add bass with EQ sounds better than the reverse. When recording a bassy instrument add highs with EQ doesn't sound that natural and you're also bring out the any hiss or other noise. So decide what is more important recording or mainly having a practice space for acoustic playing.

 

 

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Why do friends tell you to get an upright and have the extra space? Extra space for what? IMHO, a project/studio space should have a greater than 6" grand if possible. Especially if the owner plays well like you.

 

I have a 6"1' Yamaha C3, Hammond A100, Leslie 145, a mix station, and drum set in my studio and still have room to move around and have friends over to play. It gets crowded when I setup my electric gear but that stuff is usually in the closet waiting for the next gig.

 

I did a session a couple of weeks ago on a Yamaha upright that was excellent. I"d rather play that piano than most small grands I"ve played.

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Imma gonna jump in here and say that while I agree with the group that says, "get a grand," I don't believe that 6' is a hard and fast rule. My Kawai RX-2 is 5'10" and sounds fantastic. I've come across smaller grands that were also great. Take your time, be patient, and shop around. If a piano speaks to you and it's under 6', get it.

 

The best idea might be Tim's. Rent one, and if you fall in love with it, hopefully you can work out buying that piano.

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"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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Add me to the "Grand" group. My 1980's Baldwin Howard is 5' 8" and sounds pretty good in our living room, although the bass pales in comparison to larger pianos. I did have some action work and hammer shaving done when we got it in 2011. My church recently got a similar aged Baldwin (not Howard, which was Baldwin's lower price instrument) of the same size, and that sounds REALLY good even in a sanctuary that seats over 100. The "feel" of both of these instruments is better than any spinet or console I've ever played (although I haven't played any really high end ones).

 

Acoustic pianos are very individual, even in the high end. The idea of renting one sounds good to me (unless you happen to find one that you really like to buy in someone's home or church). As others have said, there are a HUGE number of used pianos available, and they don't generally hold as high a price now even as back in 2011, that is, when the owner realizes that their original expectation just isn't going to sell.

 

One added comment - it is worth it to take some extra time in the search (and definitely to have a trusted tuner/tech look at it before sealing the deal)

 

 

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You might also factor in repertoire as a consideration. That extra foot obviously makes a big difference for the bottom octave...if you're hanging out down there.

 

For many years I played on a Steinway S (5'1"). Beautiful piano, Steinway's "singing" tone, etc., but no amount of technician ingenuity could coax anything coherent out of the lower strings. At the time I was working on some contemporary classical pieces that sounded pretty heinous on the S, and I would have gladly swapped it for a C3 (if "swapping pianos" were easy.) These days I think that S or a nicely-voiced C1 would work fine for my purposes.

 

Fully disclosing my own shallowness, I'd also be thinking at least a smidge about aesthetics in this case. 20x20 sounds like a very big room. If the grand is going to be tucked into a corner, the size may not matter much, But if it's going to be out in the open as a centerpiece in the studio, the smallest of grands can read a little stubby and compromised regarded from a distance. If budget and space allow for something closer to 6', I think it might read better.

 

Lastly, +1 for investigating Yamaha N family, esp if space *is* an issue. I became familiar with these when my neighbor was shopping for one last year, and it seems like they're turning up barely-used for half of MSRP everywhere these days. Figuring out how to record and mic your own piano can be fun and rewarding or painful and frustrating, depending on how you like to spend your time. If you think you might be in the latter category, having a turnkey solution might be a nice thing.

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Imma gonna jump in here and say that while I agree with the group that says, "get a grand," I don't believe that 6' is a hard and fast rule. My Kawai RX-2 is 5'10" and sounds fantastic. I've come across smaller grands that were also great. Take your time, be patient, and shop around. If a piano speaks to you and it's under 6', get it.

 

The best idea might be Tim's. Rent one, and if you fall in love with it, hopefully you can work out buying that piano.

 

I have an older version Kawai, same size as what Joe has, and I wish it sounded to me the way it sounds to him, but it could be the room.

 

I've already made my decision (because it's in the living room, you get the drift) but if I had to make it again, for all my intents and purposes, and had the dough, I think I'd go for a Yamaha N3X.

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Rod

Here for the gear.

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OK, a different consideration? Aesthetics. I have a big living room and a decent instrument. I bring acoustic musos to my house and we sit around a 200cm Bosie. The stuff we end up playing is usually outrageous. Even the simplest tunes end up having deep impact. They are in seventh heaven, am I.

 

This is not an argument about practicality, economics, etc. Just looking for ultimate musical bliss. Nothing rocks it like a decent acoustic grand. Buy used, serious bang for the buck if you've got the space. Love my Yamaha AG N3 in the other house, but it's not gonna please like a serious grand.

 

Your call, though.

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I'm on the grand side too, my 5'8" Knabe sounds good in my living room, looks great and I love it. I'm biased though because I completely rebuilt it myself except for the restringing. I will say though I had a chance to play a reconditioned early century Steinway 53" upright at a house party last year. It was awesome, sounded great, played great, the action was tight and solid, better than my grand. Part of it is a big upright has the strings right in your face, it's like Dolby surround sound. The other part of course is it's a flippin Steinway! I was surprised an upright could sound and play that well. Still, a grand is a grand and bigger is better.

 

Bob

Hammond SK1, Mojo 61, Kurzweil PC3, Korg Pa3x, Roland FA06, Band in a Box, Real Band, Studio One, too much stuff...
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I think OPs question reveals his answer. He wants the grand. Get the grand. A 6" piano in a 20" room - doesn"t seem overwhelming to me. I mean - its a music room and it has a fabulous grand as the centerpiece. Nothing out of order here ... you could still fit a band in there if you actually wanted to. We"ve all crammed in much smaller rehearsal spaces, thats for sure
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Add me to the Grand (under 6 ft.) column also, I have a Yamaha YUX upright but the action and the 'repeat bar' on Grands I feel will help my technique and playing pleasure, they are generally more fluid than uprights because of the hammer return... of course the new B.Grand will have to be a good piano to begin with ... It is on the schedule for my retirement in a few! The YUX has served me well though at 52 in. tall, and is a bit better than the U series. It has the X cross bracing on the back and upgraded hammers and a sound baffle closer to the keyboard! Kawai, Yamaha or a nice Mason and Hamlin 5'6'' or so would be a godsend or an older (40's vintage) Baldwin when they went head to head with Steinway!

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My wife forced me to buy a Roland V-Piano Grand (waits for the acoustic snob storm...........) and I have never looked back.

It looks fantastic as a piece of furniture and sounds fantastic whichever grand piano, upright piano type or style of sound you want.

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I got my 20 X 20 . What do you guys think?

 

I think you're just gloating over your good fortune. That's ok, I would do the same damn thing if I could build a studio large enough to hold a grand.

 

It's an individual choice based on how piano-centered you are what you might do with the remaining space. Me, I'd get a grand and shrink everything else to fit. An extra foot isn't going to change the overall math by much so why stop at baby, go all the way . . .

 

It's hard to give real advice without knowing the whole picture. What's going to be happening in this room, what other items are essential, what might change in the future, etc. . . .. It's easy to say "get a grand," but we don't know what considerations you are balancing.

 

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  • 1 month later...

Hello everybody,

Sorry about the EXTENDED delay in responding. I've read this thread more than once actually. Your feedback is greatly appreciated. I've been completely inactive from the internet for a while due to this studio conversion/remodeling project. It takes a while for inspectors to show up. Sometimes they find completely unrelated issues around the house that I need to fix as well. I can hardly wait for this whole thing to be over. I can barely see the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

The original plan had to change, so I ended up with a smaller 19 X 18 ish room. Just for a smaller footprint, I seriously considered a high end upright for a while but eventually decided on a new Kawai GL-40 (size 5'11''). There are A LOT of options in that price range, especially if you take your time and look around for good used pianos....but I don't like to buy used instruments, I liked this piano and got a great deal that fit my shrinking budget. They had some hybrid pianos that sounded cool, but a traditional piano will do for me.

 

 

https://kawaius.com/product/gl-40/

 

For little bit more I could've got the GL-50, but the GL-40 was already big enough for this room.

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Hello everybody,

Sorry about the EXTENDED delay in responding. I've read this thread more than once actually. Your feedback is greatly appreciated. I've been completely inactive from the internet for a while due to this studio conversion/remodeling project. It takes a while for inspectors to show up. Sometimes they find completely unrelated issues around the house that I need to fix as well. I can hardly wait for this whole thing to be over. I can barely see the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

The original plan had to change, so I ended up with a smaller 19 X 18 ish room. Just for a smaller footprint, I seriously considered a high end upright for a while but eventually decided on a new Kawai GL-40 (size 5'11''). There are A LOT of options in that price range, especially if you take your time and look around for good used pianos....but I don't like to buy used instruments, I liked this piano and got a great deal that fit my shrinking budget. They had some hybrid pianos that sounded cool, but a traditional piano will do for me.

 

 

https://kawaius.com/product/gl-40/

 

For little bit more I could've got the GL-50, but the GL-40 was already big enough for this room.

OK, after all this build-up with some much interest and commentary in this thread, it's only 'right' if you did a review of this piano for all of us, esp the wanna be grand piano owners. So, it sounds like being new and under $30k and 6' or under were your basic starting points. How did you narrow it down from there, or was this Kawai always a shoe in, and if so, why?

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Hello everybody,

Sorry about the EXTENDED delay in responding. I've read this thread more than once actually. Your feedback is greatly appreciated. I've been completely inactive from the internet for a while due to this studio conversion/remodeling project. It takes a while for inspectors to show up. Sometimes they find completely unrelated issues around the house that I need to fix as well. I can hardly wait for this whole thing to be over. I can barely see the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

 

.

 

I would contact the folks at " Love to or List it "

 

https://www.hgtv.com/shows/love-it-or-list-it

 

Ask for Hillary

 

;)

Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ?

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[70's Songwriter]

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Ok, so today I officially made the full payment, though the piano is not going to be delivered till the laminate flooring is installed. I scheduled the delivery for next month for now and they were ok with that.

 

Yeah, I definitely didn't want to pay more than $30k and I didn't need anything bigger than 6' for sure. I didn't want to turn this space into a piano room either. I want it to be a composition/tracking/project studio with an acoustic piano. I'm not a Jazz pianist, so these Toyota Corolla/Camry range of Asian pianos work pretty good for me. I really LOVE the heavier action of Steinway in particular, but I thought I better hold on to my kidney. If I had the time and patience, I would totally hire a piano technician and shop around for a better alternative through a private seller.

 

 

So far I've played 5 or 6 GL-40s in different show rooms (with similar acoustics). They sounded anywhere from somewhat dark to very bright, so I know it's a pretty flexible piano and CAN be voiced to achieve a certain tonal character. For me, the action could've been a little heavier but that's just my preference. I've practiced on such pianos for years and as a result most keyboards and pianos feel a little light for me. Not exactly a good thing!

 

I'll definitely capture my experience with it and will share some pic/audio/video files soon. I have a pair of KM184 Neumann mics. Hopefully, I'll be able to capture a good sound.

 

By the way I paid no $30k. Including tax and everything, It cost me ........................drum roll............................................................ $17k.

 

 

 

 

 

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