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Kurzweil PC4
#3000126 07/24/19 07:47 PM
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Hi,

We have posted all the details about the PC4, including full Manual, at http://kurzweil.com/product/pc4/

Regards,
Fran

KC Island
Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3000139 07/24/19 09:03 PM
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Looking forward to giving the PC4 a spin. I've been looking for controller (for soft-synths) that also could back me up in the event of a computer failure. My PC3X is great, but throw that thing in a flight case and it is pretty hard to move around. The PC4's weight is right where I want it to be, but I'll want to play it to be sure the weight for action trade-off is acceptable for me. I don't love the DC jack for power (I always have a backup adapter for power, but an AC power connector feels more sturdy, in general), but that wouldn't prevent me from buying a PC4.

I know this is like Pepsi vs. Coke for many people, but I like the wheels on top of the keyboard to reduce the width. The Forte 7 is attractive to me for that reason (although I do like having all 88). We'll see how the action feels on the PC4 before I make a final decision.

Thanks for the manual - that helps answer a lot of questions.

Great job, Kurzweil!


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Kurzweils, some oldie but goodie stuff from Yamaha/Korg, and soft-synths that I've barely explored.
Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3000151 07/24/19 10:56 PM
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Is the hammer action on the PC4 lighter or the same as the Forte?


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
rickzjamm #3000154 07/24/19 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rickzjamm
Is the hammer action on the PC4 lighter or the same as the Forte?

Different.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
rickzjamm #3000156 07/24/19 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rickzjamm
Is the hammer action on the PC4 lighter or the same as the Forte?


It´s not only "different" (like Another Scott said),- it´s a different brand action ... Medelli vs Fatar.
Matter of taste,- as always ...

I myself, I´d prefer getting a PC4 w/ some balanced (non-hammer) weighted action and/or 61-key Fatar TP9S synth action like PC3/PC3K.
I´m not a big fan of "piano-hammer" actions for synth- & sample-playback workstations.

A.C.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3000157 07/24/19 11:29 PM
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Any guesses as to the price (U$D or compared with other models)...?


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3000161 07/24/19 11:35 PM
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Based on prices quoted elsewhere in the world and converted (which is not an assurance of accuracy), it looks like it will likely come in under $2k.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3000167 07/25/19 12:43 AM
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For a lightweight gigging all in one slab I was leaning towards the MODX because of price, sound, weight & hammer action but the PC4 may be the one.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3000173 07/25/19 01:58 AM
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I doubt that Kurz can match the price of the MODX. The question will be, do you need all the features of the PC4 to do what you need for your performances, and are you willing to pay for it. I expect it will be less than the Forte, Montage, Kronos - but how much less? On introduction the PC3K8 listed for $4100 with a street price around $3500.

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Re: Kurzweil PC4
AnotherScott #3000174 07/25/19 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by rickzjamm
Is the hammer action on the PC4 lighter or the same as the Forte?

Different.
Very different, IMO, and not in a good way. Played one at Gearfest, the action had this weird bouncy thing going on. Deal breaker. Of course, one man’s meat, YMMV, etc.

I did like some of the new pianos, but felt most of the rest of the sounds were not much of a departure from standard PC3 fare.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
rickzjamm #3000180 07/25/19 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by rickzjamm
For a lightweight gigging all in one slab I was leaning towards the MODX because of price, sound, weight & hammer action but the PC4 may be the one.

I'd have to specifically compare the MODX interface to the PC4, but from what I know of both and their past histories, for an all-in-one, I'd prefer Kurz, because I tend to grab a lot of my sounds on the fly, and in a split environment (as you're more likely to have to make use of if you have just one board), Kurz is generally better than Yamaha at quick manipulations of sounds within your specified split regions (i.e. ease of selecting a new sound for just part of the board, adjusting its level, transposing its octave if need be).

In general, these seem like the big Kurz advantages:
* 4 engines: sample-based, FM, virtual analog, clonewheel organ (MODX has the first two)
* assignable additional outputs
* aftertouch
* sequencer (I don't care, but some do)
* double the expansion memory
* more polyphony
* more controller support (ribbon, 4 foot switches), more panel controls in general
* full 16 zone implementation... MODX is 16 overall but limits the keyboard itself to 8 (with seamless switching working only as long as you use just the first 4) and limits its MIDI controller functions to 8 channels as well (Kurz also is more flexible in letting you simultaneously trigger some of its sounds from another board)

But MODX has some nice things too... touchscreen, endless encoders, built in USB MIDI interface.

Originally Posted by Moonglow
I did like some of the new pianos, but felt most of the rest of the sounds were not much of a departure from standard PC3 fare.
Sonically, I think it's basically PC3 + Kore64 + a smaller-sample version of the Forte additions + 6-op FM synth.



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Re: Kurzweil PC4
AnotherScott #3000253 07/25/19 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by Moonglow
I did like some of the new pianos, but felt most of the rest of the sounds were not much of a departure from standard PC3 fare.
Sonically, I think it's basically PC3 + Kore64 + a smaller-sample version of the Forte additions + 6-op FM synth.

I’m not sure if the unit I played at Gearfest had all of those engines fully loaded. Obviously a prototype, the octave shift was messed up; it was shifted down an octave too far, with the top octave playing nothing (especially annoying when playing piano). I tried to adjust this, to include turning the unit off/on, but to no avail. I walked away from that experience feeling it may be to Kurzweil’s advantage to not have a demo available until some of these issues get resolved. Sort of a “something is not better than nothing” type of thing.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3000432 07/26/19 05:45 PM
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I'm interested in this if I can get used to the keys. Still not showing up at any retailers though.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
ElmerJFudd #3000447 07/26/19 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
I doubt that Kurz can match the price of the MODX. The question will be, do you need all the features of the PC4 to do what you need for your performances, and are you willing to pay for it. I expect it will be less than the Forte, Montage, Kronos - but how much less? On introduction the PC3K8 listed for $4100 with a street price around $3500.
Current promised price is "between $1500 and $2000" for the 88 Key (which is the only real product at this time -- others are in our imaginations). So yeah, looks like they'll match the MODX price pretty easily.

Regarding features, I notice that just like the PC3's recycling (with sometimes inaccurate results) of K2600 manual content, most of the PC4 musician's guide seems to match the Forte manual. Finally, regarding manuals, there is the (slightly pathetic) instruction in the PC4 manual that if you want to know about FUNs, you chould check out the K2600 manuals.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3000449 07/26/19 07:37 PM
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That would be great. Even more so if a 76k synth action comes to fruition.
But a bizarre turn of events as a PC3K8 runs for $2200 on the second hand and B stock listings.
The next Artis revision should come in at $800! smile

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Re: Kurzweil PC4
ElmerJFudd #3000452 07/26/19 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd

But a bizarre turn of events as a PC3K8 runs for $2200 on the second hand and B stock listings.

Discontinued model... people getting what they can while they can from whom they can! It does have the better action. I don't know if it has any other advantage over a PC4.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
Bill W #3000456 07/26/19 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill W
I'm interested in this if I can get used to the keys. Still not showing up at any retailers though.


The keys will be the same as the Kurzweil SP6. Anticipated availability in the USA is September 2019.
More info available at my website.

I've put together a video of the 4 built-in demo songs:


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3000463 07/26/19 09:00 PM
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Hmmm same action as SP6.
That’s a pretty light weighted action.
Bordering on a semiweight synth feel no, SP6 owners?

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Re: Kurzweil PC4
ElmerJFudd #3000465 07/26/19 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Hmmm same action as SP6.
That’s a pretty light weighted action.
Bordering on a semiweight synth feel no, SP6 owners?

Not at all. Its a fully weighted hammer action board. Its a Medeli K6 action.
Personally I like the Medeli action better than the Fatar actions they use in other models.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
ElmerJFudd #3000468 07/26/19 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Hmmm same action as SP6.
That’s a pretty light weighted action.
Bordering on a semiweight synth feel no, SP6 owners?

What makes a "weighted" action feel more like a piano than a "semiweighted" is not the amount of weight, it's the presence of a hammer mechanism. Based on the KA90 that I think uses the same action, it's kind of similar to Yamaha GHS. It doesn't feel anything like a semiweighted synth action, it's still a hammer action. Or to put it differently, one might argue about how good it is for piano, but no one is going to say it's good for organ. ;-)


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3000470 07/26/19 09:30 PM
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I played a Medeli digital piano in the FP-30, P45, PX-160 price range.
Was not impressed unfortunately.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
AnotherScott #3000471 07/26/19 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Hmmm same action as SP6.
That’s a pretty light weighted action.
Bordering on a semiweight synth feel no, SP6 owners?

What makes a "weighted" action feel more like a piano than a "semiweighted" is not the amount of weight, it's the presence of a hammer mechanism. Based on the KA90 that I think uses the same action, it's kind of similar to Yamaha GHS. It doesn't feel anything like a semiweighted synth action, it's still a hammer action. Or to put it differently, one might argue about how good it is for piano, but no one is going to say it's good for organ. ;-)

With every 'instrument' or voice you select, the key action seems to be altered (firmware?) to approximate an action closer to what one would expect for that voice. I believe Nord uses this technique as well so that their "Stage" series can be used with both Piano and Organ selections.
The bottom line is that anyone considering a PC4 should get to their local retailer and try it out for themselves - or at least try an SP6 (until the PC4 is available) to get more of a feel for the action.
Also bear in mind that there's a rather extensive selection of "key velocity" (touch sensitivity) settings ranging from heavy to light to tailor the action closer to what one is more comfortable with.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
ElmerJFudd #3000473 07/26/19 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
I played a Medeli digital piano in the FP-30, P45, PX-160 price range.
Was not impressed unfortunately.

Did you just walk up to it and play it? Or did you go to the section where you can adjust the key velocity (touch sensitivity) to a harder or lighter touch depending on your preference?
Most people walk up to any keyboard, try it, and make a decision as to whether they like it or not based on what they just experienced. Most people (unfortunately) don't know about changing the touch sensitivity, and they should ask the sales person for help with that. You'd be surprised what a simple change in that setting can make.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3000474 07/26/19 09:38 PM
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Sat in my local shop with all of them side by side and move one to the next. Back and forth, forth and back.
Critiquing what I like and don’t like about each.

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Re: Kurzweil PC4
ElmerJFudd #3000476 07/26/19 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Sat in my local shop with all of them side by side and move one to the next. Back and forth, forth and back.
Critiquing what I like and don’t like about each.

If you get a chance to do that again, try changing the touch sensitivity setting on each (all boards have that... its just a matter of getting to the section where you can make that adjustment) and see if you still have the same opinion of the board(s) you played.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
PianoManChuck #3000480 07/26/19 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
I played a Medeli digital piano in the FP-30, P45, PX-160 price range.
Was not impressed unfortunately.

Sometimes the same action can play better in a different board.

Originally Posted by PianoManChuck
With every 'instrument' or voice you select, the key action seems to be altered (firmware?) to approximate an action closer to what one would expect for that voice. I believe Nord uses this technique as well so that their "Stage" series can be used with both Piano and Organ selections.

The Stage HA (not HP or SW) models are hammer actions that are above average for organ as hammer actions go, but still not nearly as good for organ as the non-hammer actions.

Also, the only thing that is altered based on the instrument/voice you select is that organ uses the high trigger point, an option only available for voices that do not need to sense velocity. (The same adjustment is available on their non-hammer actions.) But that alone is not enough to make a hammer action not-terrible for organ. The amount of force needed to trigger the note, the speed of the key return, how sharp or curved the side edge of the keys are are all factors.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3000481 07/26/19 10:08 PM
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The Medeli sling engine didn’t help at all. And the build was flimsy.
Maybe the Kurz sounds are just what the actual needs.
I’ll refrain from commenting on that until I’ve played one.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
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I have had an SP6 for about 18 months. I also have a Yamaha CP4, whose action I do prefer to the Kurzweil. However, I find myself using the Kurzweil more and more for big band gigs and small pop gigs. I recently tried to tailor (for several days!) the Yamaha to give me the sonic flexibility I enjoy with the Kurzweil in one pop group, used it for one gig, and reverted to the Kurzweil after that, much to the relief of my band mates. Compared to the CP4, the biggest difference in action is that I can’t get the dynamic range I’d like to have for APs. I put a MIDI monitor on the Kurzweil and had a hard time setting the sensitivity to where I could smoothly and repeatedly go from 0 to 127, as I can with the CP4. However, in a non jazz setting, that more limited sensitivity range on the Kurzweil keybed acts like a (desirable) subtle compression. And I find the high trigger for organs works quite well. I’ve resigned myself to putting up with the compromised keybed for the great Kurzweil sound.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
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I recently acquired a Kurzweil SP6 that has the Medeli K6 action - reported to be the same keybed model that is in the new PC4.
My understanding is that the K6 is not the Medeli keybed used in previous models.

This keybed action is not 'lightweight'. It is a weighted keybed, that I find has a very pleasant action.
I compare this to also having a Privia PX-5s and a Kawai Grand. I have no trouble switching between the three with regards to 'piano action'. The Medeli keybed in the SP6 seems to be a little faster that that in the Px-5s (as is preferred for Organ, etc.). In the past I have also owned (and let go of) several other keyboards (Roland RD-800, Korg SV-1, a Roland FP series, and others)

In the case of the SP6/Medeli K6, I'm finding that Kurzweil has, in their included 10 velocity curves, provided adequate options to adjust touch for an appropriate sensitivity whether playing acoustic piano samples, organ, or a variety of other sounds.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
Jaspla #3000509 07/27/19 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Jaspla
In the past I have also owned (and let go of) several other keyboards (Roland RD-800, Korg SV-1, a Roland FP series, and others)

I'd be curious to know how you compare the feel of playing EPs on the SV1 vs. the SP6.

Originally Posted by Jaspla
In the case of the SP6/Medeli K6, I'm finding that Kurzweil has, in their included 10 velocity curves, provided adequate options to adjust touch for an appropriate sensitivity whether playing acoustic piano samples, organ, or a variety of other sounds.

Can you save a particular velocity curve with a particular sound?



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Re: Kurzweil PC4
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Back to the same chatter on the PC4’s action as we were when the SP6 was announced because it’s not easy to walk into a shop and find a Medeli SP2400 (which I’m assuming has the action in question but can’t confirm) or an SP6. That’s a shame really, but that’s how it goes. Have to rely on the reviews of owners and a good 30/45 return policy.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
AnotherScott #3000520 07/27/19 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by Jaspla
In the past I have also owned (and let go of) several other keyboards (Roland RD-800, Korg SV-1, a Roland FP series, and others)

I'd be curious to know how you compare the feel of playing EPs on the SP6 vs. the SP6.

Originally Posted by Jaspla
In the case of the SP6/Medeli K6, I'm finding that Kurzweil has, in their included 10 velocity curves, provided adequate options to adjust touch for an appropriate sensitivity whether playing acoustic piano samples, organ, or a variety of other sounds.

Can you save a particular velocity curve with a particular sound?


The manual seems to indicate that you can associate different velocity curves with different programs. This is not possible on the SP6.

Last edited by Coker; 07/27/19 10:59 AM.

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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3000524 07/27/19 12:45 PM
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Both AnotherScott and Coker have asked:
"I'd be curious to know how you compare the feel of playing EPs on the SP6 vs. the SP6"

Sorry, I'm not exactly sure of the requested comparison. However I can state that I find playing EP's on the SP6 quite enjoyable - I have explored the velocity curve options and it seems one of the options having a lighter touch then their 'Pianotouch' might work best for Rhodz.
The variations of Kurzweil program/sounds, and those created by their Users are quite good. My reference point is from owning a couple of Rhodes and a Wurtlizer 200 EP in the past (although quite a while ago). Of the boards that I had mentioned, I did find the Korg SV1 to be near the top with regards to Rhodes/EP, sound and touch, however I found that keybed did not meet my desires when playing Acoustic.

Velocity Settings - SP6 map appears to be global (not tied to a program/sound)
However when using Programs/sound employing multiple zones, when saving an edit, there appears to be some sort of option where for any zone:
"..Key Low and Key High parameters set the playable key range of each Zone by setting the lowest and highest playable key of each Zone. Keys played within this range will trigger
a note for the selected Zone. .. (You can also set a range where playing velocities will not trigger a note, by setting Velocity Low to a higher velocity than Velocity High)...".
This option is described in the SP6 Musician's Guide (manual) page 5-3. I have not explored this at this time.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
Jaspla #3000527 07/27/19 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaspla
Both AnotherScott and Coker have asked:
"I'd be curious to know how you compare the feel of playing EPs on the SP6 vs. the SP6"

Sorry, I'm not exactly sure of the requested comparison.

LOL, I meant to type "SV1 vs. the SP6" (subsequently corrected).

You kind of began to address that anyway, with...

Originally Posted by Jaspla
Of the boards that I had mentioned, I did find the Korg SV1 to be near the top with regards to Rhodes/EP, sound and touch, however I found that keybed did not meet my desires when playing Acoustic.

So it sounds like SP6 beats SV1 for acoustic, but how would you compare them for playing EPs, in the overall experience (sound and touch)?


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3000714 07/28/19 09:15 PM
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'AnotherScott' - Trying not to deviate too far from this Kurzweil PC4 thread...

I owned the SV1 some 7 years ago, shortly after they were released - I still occasionally play them when it's spotted in a retail shop.
The SP6 keybed seems to be slightly more weighted than the RH3 on the SV1.

SP6 - I have found several EP sounds that I like from within the keyboard or obtained thru one of their forums – and, have been exploring further tweaks with the PC Editor.
- some of those sounds developed by Dave Weiser, a sound designer, that had a previous association with Kurzweil
https://www.weisersound.com/kurzweil – also a source for Kurzweil products

For SP6, since the Editor is so comprehensive, you would likely use it to prefigure and save desired sounds/programs to the board.
A cursory look at the manual for the PC4 seems to indicate that a lot of the editing that needs to be done with the external editor for the SP6 is capable of being done 'on board' the PC4.

At this point I can say I am quite pleased with the EP sounds provided, or that I've acquired, or customized, along with the keytouch/performance of the SP6 - it is now the primary gig keyboard.

An advantage of the SV1 was the numerous knobs/controls on the front for quickly customizing your sound, changing Amps, on-the-fly adjustments, and tube circuit that seemed to provide the 'warmth' of original Rhodes/EP.

Having the Kurzweil SP6 with the Medeli K6 keybed, I would quickly select this over the SV1, particularly when presented with the extensive suite of exceptional Kurzweil sounds, multiple zones, and the extensive (almost overwhelming) amount of customization you can do with one of the external editors – which I'm still in the process of exploring.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3000839 07/29/19 02:19 PM
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The PC4 is listed for pre-order by at least one retailer: $1995.00


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3001015 07/30/19 11:51 AM
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That's quite an attractive price. I'm not in the market, but a nice-feeling synth-weighted 76 at c.1700 would be tempting...

Cheers Mike.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
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Re: Kurzweil PC4
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I'm looking at either the MODX or the PC4. I like the weight, price... all boxes seem to be checked but the KB3 is awesome. Used to have a Forte... do they have the same architecture on the APs, EPs & organs?


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
PianoManChuck #3002045 08/06/19 06:38 PM
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Chuck,

Nice review.

Why no mention of the FM engine / DX7 Emulation?


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3002067 08/06/19 09:29 PM
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I love my SP6, this makes me want a PC4...


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
Tom Williams #3002085 08/06/19 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Williams
Chuck,

Nice review.

Why no mention of the FM engine / DX7 Emulation?


Because that was a pianist´s review.

Lot´s of features mentioned in this review as "very cool" are features already existing in a PC3.
P.ex.,-
KB3 is the same, except it doesn´t steal polyphony from other "programs" when in "setup/multi" mode and like in FORTE.
The "variation" switch is the same what´s called "switch" (MIDI CC29) on a PC3 ...
It´s a sequencer, a production workstation ...
Already a PC3 was ...
2GB of user RAM for samples ... hmmm,- I always wonder who uses that a lot and how much time it needs filling 2GB of user RAM,- or worst,- changing content "quickly" on demand.

and so on ... all sham ...

Again a new package of crippled FORTE and PC3 and because the Ribbon Controller connection came back, it´s now a PC4.
2 advantages: weight and price

A.C.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
Legatoboy #3002086 08/06/19 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Legatoboy
I love my SP6, this makes me want a PC4...



yeah, I love my chick ... it makes me want ...

A.C.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
Al Coda #3002133 08/07/19 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Coda
Originally Posted by Legatoboy
I love my SP6, this makes me want a PC4...



yeah, I love my chick ... it makes me want ...

A.C.


GAS is GAS.... I'm not really gigging much...so it won't happen ..but I may thin out the heard and get one for home and future oldman gigging
The sliders and a few other features would help that made the SP6 harder to get around on as a gigging axe....but sonically and playing wise I am really enjoying the SP6 and the PC4 is a very similar axe.
The AC Pianos are a fresh change for me over Yamaha Nord and Roland....the Kurzweil AC pianos are very varied like Nords are but easier to EQ and sit in a mix.


SP6, CP-50, FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, XK-3, CX-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122
Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3005915 08/31/19 05:44 PM
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I love my Artis 7 for live performing, in part because of the 10 Quick Access buttons just above the key bed ("Favorites") that allows assignment of 10 programs, splits, etc. I also like its key bed which is perfect for playing piano AND organ parts. I am wondering from anyone who's tried this PC4 if: (1) there's easy access to saved programs (i.e. 1 button), and (2) if the key bed is similar to the Artis 7 and not "clunky" like some of the SP's that Kurzweil has put out, specifically the SP4-7 which I've owned. There's no Kurzweil dealers close to me so I'm going to have to rely--as I have typically--on the opinions and videos of others.


Kurzweil Artis 7 (2)
Alto TS312 Powered Speaker
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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3005939 08/31/19 09:42 PM
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It has the same keybed as the SP6, but with aftertouch. The keybed is weighted, not a semi weighted or synth action, but is quite usable for APs and organs IMHO. Definitely not clunky like the T100 can be.


CP4, ZXA1, CA93, MODX8
Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3015119 11/06/19 02:13 PM
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https://sonicstate.com/news/2019/11/06/kurzweil-pc4-ships/

It’s shipping. Let’s hear what y’all think.


Live: Casio PX-560, Roland VR-700
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Re: Kurzweil PC4
ElmerJFudd #3015120 11/06/19 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
It’s shipping. Let’s hear what y’all think.

The best sub-30 lb hammer action board ever made.


Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!
Re: Kurzweil PC4
AnotherScott #3015124 11/06/19 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
It’s shipping. Let’s hear what y’all think.

The best sub-30 lb hammer action board ever made.


smile That sub 30lbs and what it means for the action is still a quandary. Have you had your hands on one out in the wild yet, Scott?


Live: Casio PX-560, Roland VR-700
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Re: Kurzweil PC4
rockinroller #3015132 11/06/19 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
That sub 30lbs and what it means for the action is still a quandary. Have you had your hands on one out in the wild yet, Scott?

Yes. I like the action. It's not on my "very favorite" list but I'm finding it very nicely playable without frustration.

Going back over some of the other posts here...

Originally Posted by Al Coda
Again a new package of crippled FORTE and PC3 and because the Ribbon Controller connection came back, it´s now a PC4.
2 advantages: weight and price

Those are big advantages. But there are others.
* Compared to PC3: updated sound set, greater number of real-time controls, ability to load 2 GB of sample data, more polyphony, more fx units, better display
* Compared to Forte, well yeah, its largely a downscaled and lower-priced version of Forte, nothing wrong with that... but it also had the advantage of more real-time controls

Originally Posted by Al Coda
Originally Posted by Legatoboy
I love my SP6, this makes me want a PC4...

yeah, I love my chick ... it makes me want ... .

... a younger and more flexible version?

Originally Posted by rockinroller
I love my Artis 7 for live performing, in part because of the 10 Quick Access buttons just above the key bed ("Favorites") that allows assignment of 10 programs, splits, etc. I also like its key bed which is perfect for playing piano AND organ parts. I am wondering from anyone who's tried this PC4 if: (1) there's easy access to saved programs (i.e. 1 button), and (2) if the key bed is similar to the Artis 7 and not "clunky" like some of the SP's that Kurzweil has put out, specifically the SP4-7 which I've owned.

(1) the buttons on the right can be re-purposed to 10 Quick Access buttons... and there are 50 pages (banks, screens) of Quick Access assignments, so you're not limited to ten, you can create a second page if you want 20, and so forth, up to 500.
(2) It's a hammer action, so very different from either the Artis 7 or SP4-7. The hammer action makes it better for piano and worse for organ, though not as bad for organ as some other hammer actions are, in part because of the high trigger point available for organ playing, and just not being a heavy feeling action as hammer actions go.


Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!
Re: Kurzweil PC4
Tom Williams #3015143 11/06/19 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Williams
Chuck,

Nice review.

Why no mention of the FM engine / DX7 Emulation?


The FM engine was not finished at the time of the review, and the snazzy new FM presets were not included at that time.

BTW The new FM presets are amazing - and they spotlight the new lightning-fast envelopes. They brought in a raging badass to do these, Stephane from Barb&Co, a killer third party sound developer. Lots of fun to be had cascading the FM and non-FM stuff together, really powerful stuff.

As for where the PC4 sits in the big picture... After years of rebuilding as a tiny engineering group, Kurz has now returned the PC series to where it used to be - the mid-range.
For the first time in many years they now have high, middle and entry level ranges covered with very capable boards that compete very well with boards in their respective price and weight classes.
Forte is the flagship, PC4 is the mid-range workstation, SP6 is the low-cost stage piano (that still has 32bit DACs and balanced outs).




Last edited by Dave Weiser; 11/06/19 07:25 PM.
Re: Kurzweil PC4
AnotherScott #3015161 11/07/19 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
That sub 30lbs and what it means for the action is still a quandary. Have you had your hands on one out in the wild yet, Scott?

Yes. I like the action. It's not on my "very favorite" list but I'm finding it very nicely playable without frustration.
Just goes to show how subjective/personal actions are. Among weighted actions, I would place this on my “least favorite” list, unless the action I played on the axe at Gearfest was prototype and still in development. It had this bouncy thing going on that I just couldn’t deal with. Of course, one man’s meat, YMMV, yada yada, etc.


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing."
- George Bernard Shaw
Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3015168 11/07/19 06:40 AM
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How is the action compared to MODX?

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3015179 11/07/19 01:21 PM
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I've had a PC4 for a few weeks now. I find the action comfortable, natural and pretty quick for a fully weighted, hammer action.
I could play it all day without problems.
I'm not a trained pianist though, and the majority of boards I've had, have had synth or semi-weighted actions.
If I was obsessed with having a piano action, I'd buy a piano.
At first, I found the after touch required more pressure than I'm used to, and there's no real give, or squash to the feel.
I've adjusted to it though, and it's good if you don't want a lot of stray AT data clogging up a DAW.

When I heard it had FM, I was like 'ho-hum - been there 30 years ago'. But the FM sounds about the best I've heard,
and I've had many variations of it, both hardware and software. You can import .syx FM sounds directly, and there's a lot you can
do with them once inside the PC4. I've got enough FM sounds to last a lifetime.

Besides the full blown FM section, it's also got individual FM operators that can be used inside VAST programs.
Keymaps and other layers can also be used as inputs, and you can modulate the frequencies as well as the amplitude
of the operators - a technique I really like.

I also play bass, and have been running a line level (pre-amped) bass thru the fx via the audio ins. Sounds great.
Sound quality is top shelf.
And if someone uses software at all, the extra controls, zones, assignments, and flexibility make it one of the best controllers available.
There are some small quirks that need to be worked out with the OS still, but overall,
I'm extremely pleased with it.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3015182 11/07/19 03:12 PM
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Like the Forte and SP6 - it would be nice to also see it in a synth action with 76 and 61 keys.
Some of these models like the Forte, Montage, Fantom etc. would be desirable keyless format to compete with laptops/software.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3015192 11/07/19 04:58 PM
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Chris did this one in October - very informative and nice playing as always.



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Re: Kurzweil PC4
Mr. Mojo Risin #3015243 11/07/19 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Mojo Risin
How is the action compared to MODX?

I prefer the PC4 action to the MODX8 I played. But that doesn't guarantee that you will...


Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!
Re: Kurzweil PC4
Dave Weiser #3015248 11/07/19 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Weiser

BTW The new FM presets are amazing - and they spotlight the new lightning-fast envelopes. They brought in a raging badass to do these, Stephane from Barb&Co, a killer third party sound developer. Lots of fun to be had cascading the FM and non-FM stuff together, really powerful stuff.


Sounds promising. Moose Attack and Keys of Gold has been fixed inventory in my PC3X for many years.


Currently: Kurzweil PC4, PC3X & K2000.
Novation Mininova. Roland FA-06.

Previously: Korg Trinity Plus. Roland XP-80. Yamaha EX-5.
Re: Kurzweil PC4
AnotherScott #3015296 11/08/19 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by Mr. Mojo Risin
How is the action compared to MODX?

I prefer the PC4 action to the MODX8 I played. But that doesn't guarantee that you will...


Yes to this...It's a more solid action all around in the SP6/PC4 compared to the MODX (and the horrible action in the Yammy MX88 I sold) , I would have to agree w/that for my taste also owning a SP6 and playing the MODX quite a bit in GC when they came out...the only problem I have with it compared to a Yammy action is how it drives fff...really need to dig in a bit more.. but otherwise more balanced and less side to side key movement and more solid feeling...a bit more springy but not in a Nord /Fatar type of way... much more subdued than that.


SP6, CP-50, FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, XK-3, CX-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122
Re: Kurzweil PC4
AnotherScott #3015302 11/08/19 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
That sub 30lbs and what it means for the action is still a quandary. Have you had your hands on one out in the wild yet, Scott?

Yes. I like the action. It's not on my "very favorite" list but I'm finding it very nicely playable without frustration.

Going back over some of the other posts here...

Originally Posted by Al Coda
Again a new package of crippled FORTE and PC3 and because the Ribbon Controller connection came back, it´s now a PC4.
2 advantages: weight and price

Those are big advantages. But there are others.
* Compared to PC3: updated sound set, greater number of real-time controls, ability to load 2 GB of sample data, more polyphony, more fx units, better display
* Compared to Forte, well yeah, its largely a downscaled and lower-priced version of Forte, nothing wrong with that... but it also had the advantage of more real-time controls

Originally Posted by Al Coda
Originally Posted by Legatoboy
I love my SP6, this makes me want a PC4...

yeah, I love my chick ... it makes me want ... .

... a younger and more flexible version?

Originally Posted by rockinroller
I love my Artis 7 for live performing, in part because of the 10 Quick Access buttons just above the key bed ("Favorites") that allows assignment of 10 programs, splits, etc. I also like its key bed which is perfect for playing piano AND organ parts. I am wondering from anyone who's tried this PC4 if: (1) there's easy access to saved programs (i.e. 1 button), and (2) if the key bed is similar to the Artis 7 and not "clunky" like some of the SP's that Kurzweil has put out, specifically the SP4-7 which I've owned.

(1) the buttons on the right can be re-purposed to 10 Quick Access buttons... and there are 50 pages (banks, screens) of Quick Access assignments, so you're not limited to ten, you can create a second page if you want 20, and so forth, up to 500.
(2) It's a hammer action, so very different from either the Artis 7 or SP4-7. The hammer action makes it better for piano and worse for organ, though not as bad for organ as some other hammer actions are, in part because of the high trigger point available for organ playing, and just not being a heavy feeling action as hammer actions go.


That "quick access" is not quick enough for my purposes. I play in a trio and not only do the keys parts but also LH bass, so my hand cannot leave the keyboard for more than a split second during a song, to change a program. The Artis 7 (and Forte) locate a row of assignable "Favorites" buttons just above the key bed, in proximity sufficient to make a change without skipping a beat (literally). The "buttons on the right" on this PC4 are at least 3-4 times further away and there's no way I could change programs as fluidly as I do now on the Artis 7. I would love to have 88 notes in a decent gigging weight, but the absence of the "Quick" in "Access" doesn't get it for me.


Kurzweil Artis 7 (2)
Alto TS312 Powered Speaker
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Re: Kurzweil PC4
rockinroller #3015306 11/08/19 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by rockinroller

That "quick access" is not quick enough for my purposes. I play in a trio and not only do the keys parts but also LH bass, so my hand cannot leave the keyboard for more than a split second during a song, to change a program. The Artis 7 (and Forte) locate a row of assignable "Favorites" buttons just above the key bed, in proximity sufficient to make a change without skipping a beat (literally). The "buttons on the right" on this PC4 are at least 3-4 times further away and there's no way I could change programs as fluidly as I do now on the Artis 7. I would love to have 88 notes in a decent gigging weight, but the absence of the "Quick" in "Access" doesn't get it for me.

Can't you just switch programs/setups with a pedal? Then you wouldn't have to take any hands or fingers off the keyboard at all. It's a fairly simple thing to set up on a Kurzweil.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
Modler #3015311 11/08/19 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Modler
Originally Posted by rockinroller

That "quick access" is not quick enough for my purposes. I play in a trio and not only do the keys parts but also LH bass, so my hand cannot leave the keyboard for more than a split second during a song, to change a program. The Artis 7 (and Forte) locate a row of assignable "Favorites" buttons just above the key bed, in proximity sufficient to make a change without skipping a beat (literally). The "buttons on the right" on this PC4 are at least 3-4 times further away and there's no way I could change programs as fluidly as I do now on the Artis 7. I would love to have 88 notes in a decent gigging weight, but the absence of the "Quick" in "Access" doesn't get it for me.

Can't you just switch programs/setups with a pedal? Then you wouldn't have to take any hands or fingers off the keyboard at all. It's a fairly simple thing to set up on a Kurzweil.


I am pretty sure a pedal programmed to switch to different programs would have to be sequential--i.e. if I am performing with Program "1" and I need to go to Program "4" in the particular instance, I am guessing I would have to pedal-sequence through Programs 2 and 3 before arriving at 4, which would probably take as much or more time than taking a hand off the key bed and locating that assigned button in the Quick Access area of the PC4.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
rockinroller #3015313 11/08/19 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rockinroller
That "quick access" is not quick enough for my purposes. I play in a trio and not only do the keys parts but also LH bass, so my hand cannot leave the keyboard for more than a split second during a song, to change a program. The Artis 7 (and Forte) locate a row of assignable "Favorites" buttons just above the key bed, in proximity sufficient to make a change without skipping a beat (literally). The "buttons on the right" on this PC4 are at least 3-4 times further away and there's no way I could change programs as fluidly as I do now on the Artis 7. I would love to have 88 notes in a decent gigging weight, but the absence of the "Quick" in "Access" doesn't get it for me.

I see your point, but I find "a beat" long enough either way. On your Artis, could you really typically not hit the "Piano 1" button pretty much just as quickly as you could hit "Favorites 1"? (Also keep in mind that, with a couple of octaves devoted to LH bass, you're probably going to octave shift and move "middle C" to the C an octave higher, so your hand will be skewing toward the right for much of its playing anyway.) Also keep in mind that the buttons on the PC4, though similarly oriented toward the right, are actually much easier to hit quickly then the buttons on the Artis, because they are bigger targets and they are each well differentiated from each other. THat was one of my complaints about the Artis7 compared to the SP4-7 that kind of functionally preceded it... those small and thin Artis buttons, all butted up right against each other, were not nearly as easy to navigate and select quickly/reliably. I'm glad that's not an issue on the PC4.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3015314 11/08/19 03:45 PM
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Quote
I love my SP6, this makes me want a PC4...

yeah, I love my chick ... it makes me want ... .

... a younger and more flexible version?


Same axe and sound basically(I know it has more but sonically and play-ability) , just with larger 'dials' and 'sliders;.....a Dials and Slider Job augmentation ...
I do use organ on gigs, I found the dials for that and other assignable parms and effects a bit confusing on the gig to use ,especially in low light, I'd prefer sliders for the drawbars and the effects levels or anything else as on the PC4 as opposed to the to the SP6...
everything else I'm sort of OK about on the 6!

Last edited by Legatoboy; 11/08/19 03:49 PM.

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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3015315 11/08/19 04:01 PM
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Can anyone confirm that the keybed on the PC4 is the same as the SP6 except for aftertouch?


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
Coker #3015324 11/08/19 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Coker
Can anyone confirm that the keybed on the PC4 is the same as the SP6 except for aftertouch?


as usual, there is no way around this. we have to get on one and try it out. even if it is the exact same action, the aftertouch strip is going to change how it feels to play it.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
AnotherScott #3015329 11/08/19 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by rockinroller
That "quick access" is not quick enough for my purposes. I play in a trio and not only do the keys parts but also LH bass, so my hand cannot leave the keyboard for more than a split second during a song, to change a program. The Artis 7 (and Forte) locate a row of assignable "Favorites" buttons just above the key bed, in proximity sufficient to make a change without skipping a beat (literally). The "buttons on the right" on this PC4 are at least 3-4 times further away and there's no way I could change programs as fluidly as I do now on the Artis 7. I would love to have 88 notes in a decent gigging weight, but the absence of the "Quick" in "Access" doesn't get it for me.

I see your point, but I find "a beat" long enough either way. On your Artis, could you really typically not hit the "Piano 1" button pretty much just as quickly as you could hit "Favorites 1"? (Also keep in mind that, with a couple of octaves devoted to LH bass, you're probably going to octave shift and move "middle C" to the C an octave higher, so your hand will be skewing toward the right for much of its playing anyway.) Also keep in mind that the buttons on the PC4, though similarly oriented toward the right, are actually much easier to hit quickly then the buttons on the Artis, because they are bigger targets and they are each well differentiated from each other. THat was one of my complaints about the Artis7 compared to the SP4-7 that kind of functionally preceded it... those small and thin Artis buttons, all butted up right against each other, were not nearly as easy to navigate and select quickly/reliably. I'm glad that's not an issue on the PC4.


I view the QA buttons area on the PC3 and 4 boards as crowded compared to a single horizontal row on the Artis. In addition, I've labeled those 10 Favorites buttons on my Artis with the respective saved Multis (all having LH bass but different mid to high octave sounds) using a single 1/4" strip of paper defining each and taped down. It probably boils down to just being used to doing it a certain way and getting proficient at switching programs quickly and efficiently while performing.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3015795 11/12/19 03:21 PM
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Picking up from the "new rig daydreaming - recommendations?" thread...

Originally Posted by hookie
I’ve been contemplating a similar change. I guess for OP, I wonder how important it is for you to have analogue knobby synth?

This is what I’m thinking for myself, if the PC4 has a good weighted keyboard feel to me, I’d consider getting the PC4 as a lower board and the MODX7 as the upper board. Well, another “if”, not sure I’d be satisfied with the KB3 sound for B3 and I might miss the Kronos?

These two boards are light at 28 and 16 lbs and would give a wide range of options, with the possible exception of a great organ sound.

The PC4 handles most of what is typically needed, so the question of what to best add for a non-hammer board is an interesting one. Maybe a knobby synth, maybe a higher quality organ. If you can't decide between those two, then it's probably a Nord Stage 3 Compact.

As for organ quality, remember that the PC4 also has assignable outs, making it easy to put organ through something like a Ventilator or Lester K. And the PC4 also has very flexible MIDI implementation which can help if you want to trigger its organ sounds for your other board for its action.

As for synth, with some effort, one could probably make a better knobby synth emulation out of its control surface than you've been able to on past models, since they added the 9 definable knobs to the 9 definable sliders and buttons... I think it has the highest number of definable controls of any Kurz. It still won't quite be the same as a dedicated knobby synth, though.

I'm actually thinking of going another way, and using the Roland AX-Edge, because it would do double duty as occasional keytar for some songs, which would be fun. I'd probably use it for a combination of its own sounds and to trigger PC4 sounds, just because I can. Also, picking up from the QA discussion above, the AX-Edge has nice convenient patch select buttons, and I think they'd be useable to select from both internal and external sounds.

The other boards I have that I'm thinking about are the Yamaha MODX7 and Korg PA1000. The MODX7 gives me a lightweight 76 keys and a soundset I've really grown accustomed to (I've had a Yamaha of some sort on most of my gigs this century); the PA1000 is a newer acquisition and I"m really enjoying some of its sonic capabilities as well, plus I might have it at a gig anyway since I've used it as my quick solo ceremony/cocktail board with its built in speakers... so by making it my top board, I might only be traveling with two boards instead of three.

For my LH bass gigs, I prefer playing LH bass on my upper board, but if I went with the 49-key AX-Edge, I'd switch and use the PC4 itself. The MODX7 of course gives me the comfortable 76 keys for LH bass. The PA1000 at 61 would be usable for LH bass... while I prefer more keys, the PA1000 is better than most 61s for LH bass because there's a front panel button dedicated to just octave shifting your right-hand sound on the fly, which kind of extends your 61 very quickly.

I'm not sure which ONE I would buy if putting together a dedicated 2-board rig from scratch, but since I do already own a variety, I'm sure I'll switch among different top boards depending on the particular gig. Realistically, if I'm playing LH bass, I'd have almost no opportunity to use a keytar anyway, so the AX-Edge loses its edge for those scenarios. So... maybe AX-Edge for simple 2-board gigs for its keytar benefit; PA1000 if I'm bringing it anyway or if it's a LH bass gig; or if I'm not bringing the Korg anyway, for LH bass gigs I could go with the more comfortable 76 keyspan of the MODX7 or NS3. NS3 better for organ, VA synth, and probably acoustic pianos (which could be triggered from the PC4), MODX advantages are light weight, better LH bass flexibility, better patch selection functionality, and stronger sounds outside the piano/organ/VA synth categories. Tough choice. Classic first world problem!


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3016053 11/13/19 08:28 PM
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OS 4 was just released for Forte and for PC4.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3016075 11/13/19 11:23 PM
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I think the most interesting thing about the PC4 is that it is a valid alternative to the Korg Kronos. It has several sound engines, including VA, drawbar organ, 6 operator FM, VAST and so on. It has riff generators. It could be argued that the Kronos still has more. But the Kronos has several "engines" that are VA engines. True they emulate different analog synths from Korg's past, but I think it's stretching things to count them all as separate engines.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
Radagast #3016097 11/14/19 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Radagast
I think the most interesting thing about the PC4 is that it is a valid alternative to the Korg Kronos. It has several sound engines, including VA, drawbar organ, 6 operator FM, VAST and so on. It has riff generators. It could be argued that the Kronos still has more. But the Kronos has several "engines" that are VA engines. True they emulate different analog synths from Korg's past, but I think it's stretching things to count them all as separate engines.


And on the other hand, talking about V.A.S.T. as "one" synth engine is kind of an understatement. Given how many different combinations of osc's, filters, DSP's, signal paths, FUN's, etc. you can make with V.A.S.T., you could argue that the Kurzweil has an "unknown high number of synth engines".

I'd say the PC4 has three very compelling advantages over the Kronos:
- You can carry it to gigs without having to hire a roadie.
- It is significantly cheaper, without cutting many corners in terms of sound and functionality.
- It boots much faster.


Currently: Kurzweil PC4, PC3X & K2000.
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Re: Kurzweil PC4
Modler #3016145 11/14/19 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Modler
Originally Posted by Radagast
I think the most interesting thing about the PC4 is that it is a valid alternative to the Korg Kronos. It has several sound engines, including VA, drawbar organ, 6 operator FM, VAST and so on. It has riff generators. It could be argued that the Kronos still has more. But the Kronos has several "engines" that are VA engines. True they emulate different analog synths from Korg's past, but I think it's stretching things to count them all as separate engines.


And on the other hand, talking about V.A.S.T. as "one" synth engine is kind of an understatement. Given how many different combinations of osc's, filters, DSP's, signal paths, FUN's, etc. you can make with V.A.S.T., you could argue that the Kurzweil has an "unknown high number of synth engines".

I'd say the PC4 has three very compelling advantages over the Kronos:
- You can carry it to gigs without having to hire a roadie.
- It is significantly cheaper, without cutting many corners in terms of sound and functionality.
- It boots much faster.



very interested in the PC4. I would rely on the SEQ, there are a few of us that like internal SEQ's.

Unfortunately , I am not seeing the capability to convert a PC4 midi Song file into an audio or WAV file.

Not talking about making a full CD.

Just converting or sampling the midi file into an audio WAV file. Then get it to USB device.

http://kurzweil.com/knowledgebase/mark_12i/song_recorder/136/

If this is correct, Kronos is more versatile for song writers,as it has audio in sampling. Where I can mix down
my SEQ Songs into a single WAV or audio file.

Yes, I know many are not interested in hardware SEQ's and have their DAWS. etc.

I like keyboards that function completely as a standalone for recording. Thus the time trip
back to work stations.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3016276 11/15/19 06:37 PM
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We all have different priorities, I guess.

With the sequencer, you can use the audio outs to record to your format of choice - reel to reel, cassette, DAW, portable digital recorders or whatever.
Without a sequencer, it's a much more difficult road.

Last edited by felis; 11/15/19 10:55 PM.
Re: Kurzweil PC4
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I finally had a chance to try the Medeli K6 action, at a store that had a Yamaha P-125 and a Kawai ES-110 nearby, both of which are the same weight as the PC4. I was amazed at the difference -- the Yamaha and Kawai actions are superb and I think as realistic piano actions that are possible in a sub-30 pound board.

If only the PC4 had the Kawai ES110 action. Oh well ............

I'm assuming the Medeli 2400 and Kurz KA-90 have the K6, same as PC4.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3016444 11/17/19 01:52 PM
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I just finished an initial 8+ minute demo video for Kurzweil (with no talking). Hopefully it will be posted soon. The more I play the PC4, the more I love it. Fantastic sounds, easy access to common parameters, immense flexibility in assigning controllers, and light weight. The Medeli action, while not as good as the Forte (obviously) is still playable and responsive. For $2k, I don't see how you could do any better.

Oh and the FM engine is awesome. Combined with the CC SEQ function and the fantastic onboard effects, the variety and expressiveness of the sounds is right up there with the Yamaha Montage for 1/4 the price. 256 note polyphony, up to 32 layers per program, 16 programs per multi?!? Insane multi-timbral capabilities.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
Coker #3016445 11/17/19 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Coker
Can anyone confirm that the keybed on the PC4 is the same as the SP6 except for aftertouch?


Yes. The aftertouch strip doesn't seem to affect the feel. At least that I can tell.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
Jim Alfredson #3016810 11/20/19 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Alfredson
I just finished an initial 8+ minute demo video for Kurzweil (with no talking). Hopefully it will be posted soon. The more I play the PC4, the more I love it. Fantastic sounds, easy access to common parameters, immense flexibility in assigning controllers, and light weight. The Medeli action, while not as good as the Forte (obviously) is still playable and responsive. For $2k, I don't see how you could do any better.

Oh and the FM engine is awesome. Combined with the CC SEQ function and the fantastic onboard effects, the variety and expressiveness of the sounds is right up there with the Yamaha Montage for 1/4 the price. 256 note polyphony, up to 32 layers per program, 16 programs per multi?!? Insane multi-timbral capabilities.



Pretty much agree, except it's 1/2 the price, not 1/4. poke

But we can dream, right? w00t

Re: Kurzweil PC4
Jim Alfredson #3016828 11/20/19 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Alfredson
I just finished an initial 8+ minute demo video for Kurzweil (with no talking). Hopefully it will be posted soon. The more I play the PC4, the more I love it. Fantastic sounds, easy access to common parameters, immense flexibility in assigning controllers, and light weight. The Medeli action, while not as good as the Forte (obviously) is still playable and responsive. For $2k, I don't see how you could do any better.

Oh and the FM engine is awesome. Combined with the CC SEQ function and the fantastic onboard effects, the variety and expressiveness of the sounds is right up there with the Yamaha Montage for 1/4 the price. 256 note polyphony, up to 32 layers per program, 16 programs per multi?!? Insane multi-timbral capabilities.


Very nice video, Jim!
Thanks!!!


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
UnderGroundH #3016831 11/20/19 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by UnderGroundH
Originally Posted by Jim Alfredson
I just finished an initial 8+ minute demo video for Kurzweil (with no talking). Hopefully it will be posted soon. The more I play the PC4, the more I love it. Fantastic sounds, easy access to common parameters, immense flexibility in assigning controllers, and light weight. The Medeli action, while not as good as the Forte (obviously) is still playable and responsive. For $2k, I don't see how you could do any better.

Oh and the FM engine is awesome. Combined with the CC SEQ function and the fantastic onboard effects, the variety and expressiveness of the sounds is right up there with the Yamaha Montage for 1/4 the price. 256 note polyphony, up to 32 layers per program, 16 programs per multi?!? Insane multi-timbral capabilities.


Very nice video, Jim!
Thanks!!!


And great sounds by Dave Weiser!

Re: Kurzweil PC4
zxcvbnm098 #3016868 11/20/19 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by felis
Pretty much agree, except it's 1/2 the price, not 1/4. poke

But we can dream, right? w00t


You are correct. My apologies for the typo.


Originally Posted by zxcvbnm098
Originally Posted by UnderGroundH
Originally Posted by Jim Alfredson
I just finished an initial 8+ minute demo video for Kurzweil (with no talking). Hopefully it will be posted soon. The more I play the PC4, the more I love it. Fantastic sounds, easy access to common parameters, immense flexibility in assigning controllers, and light weight. The Medeli action, while not as good as the Forte (obviously) is still playable and responsive. For $2k, I don't see how you could do any better.

Oh and the FM engine is awesome. Combined with the CC SEQ function and the fantastic onboard effects, the variety and expressiveness of the sounds is right up there with the Yamaha Montage for 1/4 the price. 256 note polyphony, up to 32 layers per program, 16 programs per multi?!? Insane multi-timbral capabilities.


Very nice video, Jim!
Thanks!!!


And great sounds by Dave Weiser!


The sounds in that video are all stock. Dave offers his own set but I did not use them in that video per the request of Kurzweil.

I've been digging into the SONG mode of the PC4. It's extremely powerful and easy to use. The feature that's blowing my mind is that you can use songs as RIFFS in MULTI mode. In other words, you can have an entire 16 track song and assign it to one of the 16 layers in MULTI mode, and then assign an entirely different songG to another layer and they can run independently of each other. WHAT?!? I can't really think of a reason why, but you could do it. A much more practical use for it is to set up multiple riffs, like horn riffs and be able to play them with one finger while doing other parts on the keys, like for a cover band or something. Each RIFF could be a separate lick. Way cool!

Last edited by Jim Alfredson; 11/20/19 06:47 PM.
Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3016870 11/20/19 06:48 PM
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Oh and here's the Kurzweil demo for anyone interested. There are more coming focusing on the actual features.

https://youtu.be/VSq9QnXG6-8

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3016893 11/20/19 07:41 PM
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Sounds great Jim! Had the PC4 been around when I bought my SP6, I would have spent more and got the PC4!


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
Jim Alfredson #3016895 11/20/19 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Alfredson
Originally Posted by felis

And great sounds by Dave Weiser!


The sounds in that video are all stock. Dave offers his own set but I did not use them in that video


though since Dave did sound programming while at Kurzweil, and PC4 sounds are derived from the previous models, you may have been playing some DW sounds anyway...


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3016910 11/20/19 09:33 PM
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I assume pianos are more editable in the PC4 than in the SP6. If so, can they be tailored not to exhibit the feeling of compression that has been mentioned on other blogs?


CP4, ZXA1, CA93, MODX8
Re: Kurzweil PC4
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I don't feel any compression in the pianos on the PC4. It has the same velocity curves as the Forte, albeit scaled for the Medeli action.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
AnotherScott #3017057 11/22/19 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
you may have been playing some DW sounds anyway...


certainly No Quarter Pnt, PG's Melt, and Yesesis Tron Str were programmed by DW

possibly almost every sound Jim played was programmed by DW idk

nice video and playing, Jim. 2thu


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Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: Kurzweil PC4
Jim Alfredson #3017099 11/22/19 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Alfredson
Oh and here's the Kurzweil demo for anyone interested. There are more coming focusing on the actual features.

https://youtu.be/VSq9QnXG6-8

Very nice, but I want to know the joke/comment Jim heard right before "FM EP Piano." laugh


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
Moonglow #3017101 11/22/19 08:33 PM
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I thought maybe him just seeing the patch name made him smile like that. wink


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3017266 11/24/19 08:41 PM
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Took delivery of the PC4 on Wednesday and it's already repackaged and heading back. Wow: WHAT A DISAPPOINTMENT! I've play Kurz' exclusively since the PC3's came out, have owned all but their 88 note models, tried the SP4 series (hated the key bed) and most recently have used their Artis 7 in live performances. With all the mainly-positive comments concerning the new lightweight (critical for me) keyboard with more power, capabilities and 88 keys, I decided to take the plunge, sight-unseen, with no retailers nearby for a test drive.
1. The keys SUCK, IMO. They reminded me of the clunky and noisy keys on an SP4. For me, the Fatar TP8 on the PC3 and now the Artis 7 is a perfect hybrid between a piano key and a synth or organ key--both which are prevalent in my use in performing. Frankly, I feel the Medeli key bed does neither very well.
2. As much as I tried I could not get the PC4 to accept my saved programs from many years of programming on my PC3's and the Artis. After uploading (several times), I would get the respective title for each of the (30+) saved programs, but in most cases they didn't sound at all or, in a couple of instances, the sounds were distorted and contorted--not resembling at all what they originally sounded like. Compatibility was a key factor in my consideration to purchase.
3. The layout was cumbersome. I use the sliders/drawbars area a LOT and I found that with the row of controls over and under the sliders (buttons and knobs), I found myself activating various functions or changing other settings without intent.
4. Delivered defective. All this to say that the board was literally defective out of the box. In all the years of buying boards online, this is only the 2nd one that's arrived broken. Beginning at B4, then E5, G5 and from there every note upward, there was no tone whatsoever--dead, nada. I interfaced with Jean at Kurzweil support and he concluded that something probably "broke loose during shipment". For me--someone who gigs a lot--that gave me the jitters, thinking that most of the transporting I'd be doing with that board would not have been in a container nearly as well insulated and protected against jostling or being thrown about. My first experience with DOA was the Mojo61 (didn't fire up at all), which I returned and never looked back--or to another Mojo, for that reason alone.

That said, this board probably is a good fit for some of you: relatively light for an 88 note board with full keys, lots of great Kurzweil sounds and programs, and a reasonably modern screen. This level of board also has a tremendous feature absent in most other boards: that being two sets of separate Outputs, allowing total and dedicated split of your board (great for LH bass players like me, who want to run the bass parts separately into a bass amp, etc). However, with my recent experience with the defective unit and those horrible keys, I will pass.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
rockinroller #3017272 11/24/19 11:37 PM
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quote : “that being two sets of separate Outputs, allowing total and dedicated split of your board (great for LH bass players like me, who want to run the bass parts separately into a bass amp, etc).”/quote


[Linked Image from kurzweil.com]

Maybe I’m missing something but this pic from Kurzweil’s website of the back of the PC4 shows 2 distinct set of outputs (labeled “A” and “B”). I think this would do what you want (split bass out one and right hand sound out another)?


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
rockinroller #3017298 11/25/19 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by rockinroller

The keys SUCK, IMO. They reminded me of the clunky and noisy keys on an SP4. For me, the Fatar TP8 on the PC3 and now the Artis 7 is a perfect hybrid between a piano key and a synth or organ key--both which are prevalent in my use in performing. Frankly, I feel the Medeli key bed does neither very well.


This matches my opinion on the SP6 keys which are identical to the PC4. Well, others seem to get along with this Medeli keybed. But I didn't. Not at all. If Kurzweil would release a lightweight 76 keys PC4 with a Fatar TP8 (but with the regular light Fatar springs please!) I would definitly consider the PC4 because it really ticks many boxes of my needs.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
ChrisDespo #3017308 11/25/19 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisDespo
quote : “that being two sets of separate Outputs, allowing total and dedicated split of your board (great for LH bass players like me, who want to run the bass parts separately into a bass amp, etc).”/quote


[Linked Image from kurzweil.com]

Maybe I’m missing something but this pic from Kurzweil’s website of the back of the PC4 shows 2 distinct set of outputs (labeled “A” and “B”). I think this would do what you want (split bass out one and right hand sound out another)?


Yep, you may have zipped through my post too quickly at the end. Here's what I stated:

This level of board also has a tremendous feature absent in most other boards: that being two sets of separate Outputs, allowing total and dedicated split of your board (great for LH bass players like me, who want to run the bass parts separately into a bass amp, etc).


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
TomKittel #3017311 11/25/19 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by TomKittel
Originally Posted by rockinroller

The keys SUCK, IMO.

This matches my opinion on the SP6 keys which are identical to the PC4. Well, others seem to get along with this Medeli keybed. But I didn't. Not at all.

Of course it's going to be subjective, and people will differ as to whether it's "good enough". But I think the PC4 action is better than its closest functional competition (MODX8, FA08, Krome 88). And it has aftertouch besides! Actually, I even prefer it to the Kronos 88 action (though the RH3 action does work for me on the SV1).


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
AnotherScott #3017338 11/25/19 05:50 PM
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Of course it's going to be subjective, and people will differ as to whether it's "good enough". But I think the PC4 action is better than its closest functional competition (MODX8, FA08, Krome 88). And it has aftertouch besides! Actually, I even prefer it to the Kronos 88 action (though the RH3 action does work for me on the SV1).
[/quote]

If anyone finds the PC4 action to be "good" or "better than"........(fill in the blank), they are likely more inclined to be pianists than organists or synth players. Personally, I would rather have a dedicated "real piano" board AND a separate board to manage the non-piano parts than to expect a single board like this PC4 to effectively do all three styles of playing. In my opinion that Medeli bed can be likened to all season tires, which are affectionately referred to as "no season" in many contexts.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3017339 11/25/19 05:54 PM
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Krome 88 is awful.
FA-08 is not horrible, feels like the drop is shallow to me but I can live with it.
MODX8 feels like a P series Yamaha. Of these 3, it's preferred for me.

The only Medeli action I have played is in their own branded SP4200 carried by Sam Ash.
I can't say anything good about this instrument, action or sounds.
A Roland FP, Yamaha P, or Kawai ES would be preferable by a long shot.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
ElmerJFudd #3017342 11/25/19 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rockinroller
If anyone finds the PC4 action to be "good" or "better than"........(fill in the blank), they are likely more inclined to be pianists than organists or synth players. Personally, I would rather have a dedicated "real piano" board AND a separate board to manage the non-piano parts than to expect a single board like this PC4 to effectively do all three styles of playing. In my opinion that Medeli bed can be likened to all season tires, which are affectionately referred to as "no season" in many contexts.

Oh, yes, I'm comparing PC4 to the others (MODX8, FA8, Kross 88) from a piano perspective. From an organ perspective, they're all quite poor, with the Kurz a smidge better than the others because you can select a high trigger point. But none of these are really designed with any pretense of being "do it all" actions. Hammer actions that are more amenable to organ (though still certainly not ideal) would be the lighter TP40 actions (like what Kurzweil uses in the Forte, and to a lesser extent, what Nord uses in the 88 key Stage 3), and I thought the Kawai MP7 was above average for that as well (I haven't played the newer MP7SE, which has a different action). PC4 is not in that category,

Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Krome 88 is awful.
FA-08 is not horrible, feels like the drop is shallow to me but I can live with it.
MODX8 feels like a P series Yamaha. Of these 3, it's preferred for me.

The only Medeli action I have played is in their own branded SP4200 carried by Sam Ash.
I can't say anything good about this instrument, action or sounds.
A Roland FP, Yamaha P, or Kawai ES would be preferable by a long shot.

My problem with the FA-08 is the sluggish return,

I don't know about the Medeli branded one, but sometimes the same action may play differently in a different chassis or with different software. So while I can't claim to necessarily prefer every GHS Yamaha to every Medeli-based board, I can at least say that I preferred playing the PC4 piano from the PC4 action, compared to playing the MODX8 piano from the MODX8 action.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3017347 11/25/19 06:42 PM
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Too bad about your experience rockinroller.
I had the dead key problem once once with a keyboard (not a PC4), and it was just a loose connection.
Very frustrating though, and I was a bit nervous about opening it up under warranty.

About the rest. I was surprised you ordered one, because you were posting negative things about it months ago already.
I guess you were just thinking you'd get something more or different than what you have with your two Artis 7 boards?

Anyways - to ward off negative vibes in this thread, I'll just say that I'm very happy with my PC4.
I can't think of another board I'd rather have right now.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3017349 11/25/19 06:58 PM
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("But none of these are really designed with any pretense of being "do it all" actions.")

I disagree, and believe Kurzweil's target consumer for the PC3 and now 4 series is the all-in-one user. That is evidenced by the number of factory installed programs coupled with the programming ability that allows a user virtually endless revisions to existing sounds, sample uploads, etc. I believe they went toward a piano type key and action (more than organ or synth) in order to include the piano-oriented users as well as the rest of us looking for that single board to gig with. And historically they will take a model like the PC series, Artis and Forte after the initial release of the new product, and expand the offerings for each, either in an SE trim, and/or with different numbers of keys (61 and 76), hoping to attract users who--like me--take issue with the form factor or key bed, but want most of the other features that the board offers, allowing them to install different key beds and (hopefully) widen the consumer interest base. Personally, a primary motivation to even consider switching out my current Artis 7 for the PC4 was having 88 keys at a weight similar to the Artis 7, and the bonus of having power and capabilities equal--or exceeding--the PC3. If that PC4 had the TP8 key bed, I would probably be anxiously awaiting the replacement unit being sent in exchange for the defective one I received, and putting up with the nuance of clutter near the sliders and incompatibility with the PC3 saved programs I had tried to install.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
felis #3017351 11/25/19 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by felis
Too bad about your experience rockinroller.
I had the dead key problem once once with a keyboard (not a PC4), and it was just a loose connection.
Very frustrating though, and I was a bit nervous about opening it up under warranty.

About the rest. I was surprised you ordered one, because you were posting negative things about it months ago already.
I guess you were just thinking you'd get something more or different than what you have with your two Artis 7 boards?

Anyways - to ward off negative vibes in this thread, I'll just say that I'm very happy with my PC4.
I can't think of another board I'd rather have right now.


I am happy for you, that you are enjoying the PC4. I wanted so badly to do the same and really anguished over the decision to even order one after reviewing everyone's comments here and on other sites that discussed it. It really was a crap-shoot for me to make the decision to buy, figuring the worst case scenario would be that the board would have all the great features of a PC3 in a sub-30lb weight class and 88 keys that I really didn't like for much more than piano playing. Hope you continue to enjoy your board!


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3017353 11/25/19 07:13 PM
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I've learned the hard way not to trust what I read on here. It's not personal but I have purchased a couple things on here that just didn't work out.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
Outkaster #3017357 11/25/19 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Outkaster
I've learned the hard way not to trust what I read on here. It's not personal but I have purchased a couple things on here that just didn't work out.


Hearsay is no substitute for hands on experience. I've been disappointed more than once when I had to order without trying first.

One more cliche - no one board will make everyone happy. Different strokes, and all that.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
rockinroller #3017362 11/25/19 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by rockinroller
("But none of these are really designed with any pretense of being "do it all" actions.")

I disagree, and believe Kurzweil's target consumer for the PC3 and now 4 series is the all-in-one user. That is evidenced by the number of factory installed programs coupled with the programming ability that allows a user virtually endless revisions to existing sounds, sample uploads, etc. I believe they went toward a piano type key and action (more than organ or synth) in order to include the piano-oriented users as well as the rest of us looking for that single board to gig with. And historically they will take a model like the PC series, Artis and Forte after the initial release of the new product, and expand the offerings for each, either in an SE trim, and/or with different numbers of keys (61 and 76), hoping to attract users who--like me--take issue with the form factor or key bed, but want most of the other features that the board offers, allowing them to install different key beds and (hopefully) widen the consumer interest base. Personally, a primary motivation to even consider switching out my current Artis 7 for the PC4 was having 88 keys at a weight similar to the Artis 7, and the bonus of having power and capabilities equal--or exceeding--the PC3. If that PC4 had the TP8 key bed, I would probably be anxiously awaiting the replacement unit being sent in exchange for the defective one I received, and putting up with the nuance of clutter near the sliders and incompatibility with the PC3 saved programs I had tried to install.


Keep in mind that the PC3 is a 76 key keybed and at the time Kurzweil was using the TP9 action in 61 keys (synth-weighted), TP8 in 76 keys (semi-weighted) and TP40L in 88 keys (light action fully weighted). There were a couple of exceptions in the PC series (LE series used TP8 even with the 61 key). So your purchases were PC3's, PC3A, Artis 7, all 76 key keybeds.. All have the TP8 keybed which you (and I) obviously like. Many hated it and hated it to the point that I'm not sure that the TP8 keybed is a going forward keybed in the Kurzweil arsenal. I like it because at the time I purchased the keyboard I wanted to go to one keyboard (instead of the two that I was using) and wanted an action that allowed a reasonable expectation playing synth, piano, electric piano and organ. I found that the TP8 allowed me to emulate a variety of instruments reasonably well. I've been playing it for such a long time now that I am completely use to it. Kurzweil in its current lineup doesn't have a semi-weighted keybed on 88 key models, they are generally weighted. Kurz also introduces their new models with 88 keys because their market research indicates that 88 keys out sell 61 and 76 keybeds. Wait until they come out with a 76 key version of the PC4 and lets hope it is not like the Forte 7 with the TP40L; although if i were a betting man that is exactly what you'll see. The TP8 didn't make many friends and I'm sure that Kurz will shy away from it going forward.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
AnotherScott #3017366 11/25/19 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by rockinroller
If anyone finds the PC4 action to be "good" or "better than"........(fill in the blank), they are likely more inclined to be pianists than organists or synth players. Personally, I would rather have a dedicated "real piano" board AND a separate board to manage the non-piano parts than to expect a single board like this PC4 to effectively do all three styles of playing. In my opinion that Medeli bed can be likened to all season tires, which are affectionately referred to as "no season" in many contexts.

Oh, yes, I'm comparing PC4 to the others (MODX8, FA8, Kross 88) from a piano perspective. From an organ perspective, they're all quite poor, with the Kurz a smidge better than the others because you can select a high trigger point. But none of these are really designed with any pretense of being "do it all" actions. Hammer actions that are more amenable to organ (though still certainly not ideal) would be the lighter TP40 actions (like what Kurzweil uses in the Forte, and to a lesser extent, what Nord uses in the 88 key Stage 3), and I thought the Kawai MP7 was above average for that as well (I haven't played the newer MP7SE, which has a different action). PC4 is not in that category,

Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Krome 88 is awful.
FA-08 is not horrible, feels like the drop is shallow to me but I can live with it.
MODX8 feels like a P series Yamaha. Of these 3, it's preferred for me.

The only Medeli action I have played is in their own branded SP4200 carried by Sam Ash.
I can't say anything good about this instrument, action or sounds.
A Roland FP, Yamaha P, or Kawai ES would be preferable by a long shot.

My problem with the FA-08 is the sluggish return,

I don't know about the Medeli branded one, but sometimes the same action may play differently in a different chassis or with different software. So while I can't claim to necessarily prefer every GHS Yamaha to every Medeli-based board, I can at least say that I preferred playing the PC4 piano from the PC4 action, compared to playing the MODX8 piano from the MODX8 action.


That’s why I’d love to see a PC4 version with a nice semi weight synth action like we used to get on Rolands like the XP-80. Yamaha and Roland are stingy on their quality semi weight. It only appears on the Montage 7 and not on the MODX7. And with Roland you need to get a Fantom 7 or a Jupiter-80 to get their nice semi weight synth action.

The FA-08 action isn’t as sluggish as the RD-2000. Although the weight/balance on the RD-2000 feels nice to me - it's slow.

I don’t know how successful the SP6 has been. But I am sure they have attracted or lost buyers on the action - for carry weight vs. feel. Like many players' keyboards.

These Forte trickle downs sound great. Just need to get one with an action I like or a rack/desktop version if we can't.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
rockinroller #3017872 11/30/19 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by rockinroller
("But none of these are really designed with any pretense of being "do it all" actions.")

I disagree, and believe Kurzweil's target consumer for the PC3 and now 4 series is the all-in-one user. That is evidenced by the number of factory installed programs


Targeting all-in-one users (among other types of users) doesn't mean they have all-in-one actions. By that rationale, every board that has tons of programs including pianos, organs, and synths, must necessarily include an action that is intended to be well suited to all those things. That clearly isn't the case. There are tons of examples of boards with that variety of sounds whose actions are poor for piano or poor for organ. The sounds are still useful if your needs for those sounds that are poorly matched to the action is more minimal, or if you intend to drive them from another board via MIDI. But the fact that Yamaha puts the exact same electronics and sounds into a hammer action MODX8 as they do a non-hammer MODX6 or MODX7, or that Roland does the same with their Juno/FA 88/76/61 variants, or that Nord Electros can be triggered by a TP8O or a TP100, or that the Kronos with CX3 engine comes in boards with RH3 actions, certainly doesn't mean that all those actions are well designed for all these boards' sounds. More often, they clearly are not. But it doesn't make sense for them to delete the organ programs from the hammer action boards or delete the piano programs from the non.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
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I’m thinking the present Kronos and Krome sale will bring us new Korg synths or romplers at NAMM.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
AnotherScott #3017894 11/30/19 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by rockinroller
("But none of these are really designed with any pretense of being "do it all" actions.")

I disagree, and believe Kurzweil's target consumer for the PC3 and now 4 series is the all-in-one user. That is evidenced by the number of factory installed programs


Targeting all-in-one users (among other types of users) doesn't mean they have all-in-one actions. By that rationale, every board that has tons of programs including pianos, organs, and synths, must necessarily include an action that is intended to be well suited to all those things. That clearly isn't the case. There are tons of examples of boards with that variety of sounds whose actions are poor for piano or poor for organ. The sounds are still useful if your needs for those sounds that are poorly matched to the action is more minimal, or if you intend to drive them from another board via MIDI. But the fact that Yamaha puts the exact same electronics and sounds into a hammer action MODX8 as they do a non-hammer MODX6 or MODX7, or that Roland does the same with their Juno/FA 88/76/61 variants, or that Nord Electros can be triggered by a TP8O or a TP100, or that the Kronos with CX3 engine comes in boards with RH3 actions, certainly doesn't mean that all those actions are well designed for all these boards' sounds. More often, they clearly are not. But it doesn't make sense for them to delete the organ programs from the hammer action boards or delete the piano programs from the non.


True. But what stops Kurzweil from releasing synth action models anymore? One must assume they have sales data that shows the vast majority of their sales are 88k weighted offerings. Because there isn’t a synth action Forte, or SP6 or PC4.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
ElmerJFudd #3017899 11/30/19 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
True. But what stops Kurzweil from releasing synth action models anymore? One must assume they have sales data that shows the vast majority of their sales are 88k weighted offerings. Because there isn’t a synth action Forte, or SP6 or PC4.

I'd say... Bingo.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3017961 11/30/19 08:33 PM
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As long as I've been a Kurzweil owner, they have generally released the 88 key first, then after a while a 76 key, then a 61 again after a while. As far as why, could be demand and/or upper management decision - they have a very small staff of designers compared to Roland, Korg, and Yamaha; so things tend to be done in a serial way instead of parallel.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3017970 11/30/19 09:14 PM
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I believe the Forte hit in summer 2014.
They cut down the 88k TP-40L to a 76k TP-40L and a cheaper 88k TP-100.
And they trickled down an SP6 with an 88k weighted Medelli action.
And released a new more affordable PC4 with an 88k weighted Medelli action.

All bets are off with regard to 76 and 61k synth action versions of the Forte and PC4.
They might come, but who knows when or if. It’s clearly not a priority.

Until then, you can still get an Artis 7 (based on PC3K) with a synth action. New it goes for $1999.00.
But im sure deals can be found.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
MoodyBluesKeys #3018001 12/01/19 02:17 AM
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And SP4 came out in a 76 before an 88, and never 61. Never an Artis 61, either. I think the 76 key PC2 and 88 key PC2X came out simultaneously, and never did a 61 on that one, either. I think there's no reliable predictable pattern here.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3018471 12/04/19 08:45 PM
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If Kurz is smart, based on what I'm hearing here, they will get out a 7x version with TP-8 light springs, and sell a bunch of them near the same price.

I've gotten used to the TP-9 but hinge is way to close for a good feel at the key top. The long hinge on the Osmose drew my eye before I understood it's extra sensitivity.

Hammond made a fantastic light action already by 1937. It remains the best organ action ever. Crazy.

Last edited by uhoh7; 12/04/19 08:51 PM.

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Re: Kurzweil PC4
felis #3018486 12/04/19 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by felis
Originally Posted by Outkaster
I've learned the hard way not to trust what I read on here. It's not personal but I have purchased a couple things on here that just didn't work out.


Hearsay is no substitute for hands on experience. I've been disappointed more than once when I had to order without trying first.

One more cliche - no one board will make everyone happy. Different strokes, and all that.

Absolutely. I played the Kurzweil PC4 last week. It sounded all right.

However, I didn't particularly care for the key action either. YMMV. cool


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
AnotherScott #3018491 12/04/19 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by rockinroller
("But none of these are really designed with any pretense of being "do it all" actions.")

I disagree, and believe Kurzweil's target consumer for the PC3 and now 4 series is the all-in-one user. That is evidenced by the number of factory installed programs


Targeting all-in-one users (among other types of users) doesn't mean they have all-in-one actions. By that rationale, every board that has tons of programs including pianos, organs, and synths, must necessarily include an action that is intended to be well suited to all those things. That clearly isn't the case. There are tons of examples of boards with that variety of sounds whose actions are poor for piano or poor for organ. The sounds are still useful if your needs for those sounds that are poorly matched to the action is more minimal, or if you intend to drive them from another board via MIDI. But the fact that Yamaha puts the exact same electronics and sounds into a hammer action MODX8 as they do a non-hammer MODX6 or MODX7, or that Roland does the same with their Juno/FA 88/76/61 variants, or that Nord Electros can be triggered by a TP8O or a TP100, or that the Kronos with CX3 engine comes in boards with RH3 actions, certainly doesn't mean that all those actions are well designed for all these boards' sounds. More often, they clearly are not. But it doesn't make sense for them to delete the organ programs from the hammer action boards or delete the piano programs from the non.


An "all in one action" is an impossible objective in keyboards, that is unless a board's techno abilities allow user modification of its key bed in terms of touch, response, even weight and size (obviously "size" alterations would be impossible). to the extent of converting a piano-type key into an organ or synth key and back. As I've indicated in previous posts--for me, the TP8 key bed does a reasonable job of compromise between a piano and organ key, not really yielding terribly to the nuances of either.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3018503 12/04/19 11:42 PM
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I agree with uhoh7 and rockinroller. IMO a 7x key PC4 (and SP6) with good semi-weighted compromise action (TP8?) coming in at ~20 lbs / ~42" length would potentially give Nord serious competition for gigging musicians who want light-weight small-footprint single-board solutions. Based on the excellent sounds on my SP6 (including Dave Weiser's custom ones), I would be all over it. Maybe Kurz will surprise us at the upcoming NAMM





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Re: Kurzweil PC4
rockinroller #3018693 12/06/19 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by rockinroller

An "all in one action" is an impossible objective in keyboards, that is unless a board's techno abilities allow user modification of its key bed in terms of touch, response, even weight and size (obviously "size" alterations would be impossible). to the extent of converting a piano-type key into an organ or synth key and back. As I've indicated in previous posts--for me, the TP8 key bed does a reasonable job of compromise between a piano and organ key, not really yielding terribly to the nuances of either.


Maybe by the turn of the next century we will have it wink If there is still electricity available....

Osmose is perhaps a portent of some new looks at keyboard implementation. Variable weighting sounds daunting, but the basic concept most of us feel everyday: the shock absorber. The current Fatar model of "all in one" is pre-hydrallic. LOL TP-9 is great example. We have light short keys, how can we molify the pianists? Lets play with depth and spring tension. IE pre-steam technology. That way we avoid new development and all the costs. Can we blame them? Hammond protoptypes had velocity sensitivity but that was scrapped due to cost- or so I read somewhere.

But really the probem is a engineers wet dream: a variable resistence mechanism which runs the gamut from Waterfall to Wood for each/all of 7x keys. Let the resistence be moduated from multiple mechanisms, so a "tuning" is possible. Some resistence mechansisms may not have to be completely duplicated in every key. Really well done what would be the street value of such a thing today? 5kUSD for 7x keys, as a controller only, to start. That's the price of a good pro camera with lens today.

Point being: there is a market for advanced sensitivity, as Osmose sensation shows. The osmose is giving us new movements, which leave one last last untouched low hanging fruit: variable "weight", or tunable resistence.

Combine that with Osmose style movement sensitivity. OMG.

This is such a fundamental, and interesting problem I think it should be a case study in relevant engineering courses today. Likely there are already schematics on a few scattered hard drives.....

Like Clinton said: "It's the keys, Stupid" which in italian is: "Fortepianomassimo!"





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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3020744 12/24/19 02:22 PM
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http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3020742/1

Check the above thread for some measurements on the Medeli K6 action in the Medeli SP4000 and Kurzweil PC4, copied here:

Although the SP4000 and the PC4 are listed as having the same action, the Medeli K6, they are noticeably different in two ways. First, the SP4000 has no gradedness, the downweights are uniform across the board. In the PC4 the keys have a high gradedness, a difference of 23 grams between the upper and lower keys. The lower keys are more heavily weighted than in the SP4000, and the upper keys are lighter than in the SP4000. The average downweight across the keyboard is about the same in the SP4000 and PC4. Second, and I don't know if this is a hardware or software difference, is the escapement. After you play a key in the SP4000, in order to play the key again, it has to first rise 7 mm. In the PC4, the key only has to rise 5 mm before being depressed again to play. This results in a noticeably greater playability in the PC4. Other than these two differences, the key actions are about the same. Both have moderate key and hammer bounce.

If you want to compare the PC4 action to a more common board, it's very similar to the Yamaha GHS action, which is in the P-145 and several other Yamahas. However, it's better than the Yamaha in having noticeably less key and hammer bounce. Or, it's similar to the Casio PX actions, but is slightly heavier, slightly less noisy, has lower key/hammer bounce, has a longer distance to pivot, and is a bit more playable. In the Casios, you can single-key drum easily to about halfway up the key, but in the PC4 you can single-key drum easily up to 2/3rds the distance of the key. So it's like a Casio, but quieter, heavier, yet easier to play fast passages in the middle of the keys.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3021030 12/26/19 11:01 PM
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Hi all I'm new to this forum,but have been using Kurz keyboards for over 20 years(PC88).I have recently purchased the MODX 8 primarily because of its weight ,30LBS, and a good piano sound in the store.At that time the PC4 was not on the market.Took me a month to realize that I did not like

the MODX8.The keys are very plasticky tried to get used to the plastic feel(no way) there is a myriad of things the MODX can't do that the Kurz will do.One of the most important functions lacking on the MODX is the lack of assignable sliders,knobs etc.The multis are impossible to change without

having to adjust all the volumes,off course you can save a volume but if you need to adjust for particular room it does not carry over to the next multi you use, the list goes on and on,but the most annoying thing is on the gig the MODX sounds thin,really thin.I have purchased a PC4 sight unseen

because Kurzweil is not sold in New Jersey I will not receive my PC4 until mid January.I'm working on faith and experience, I really know the OS, it really is quite good,you are almost unlimited in what you can do it will conform to any configuration you need.As far as the key bed goes,well that's a

matter of taste,I have played many pianos and every one of them had a different feeling action,I'm sure you all would agree.I do consider an 88 key keyboard to be geared towards the piano player.I have no problem playing any other sounds(Pads,Strings,synth,etc)on a weighted board. I do trust

Kurzweil and think there products are pretty good, I hope I'm not disappointed.There has been a OS upgrade for the PC4 and I have included a list of improvements that have been made, they have Made a revision to the Key Bed action.






Kurzweil PC4 1.06 Update

11/12/19

Past Release Notes
Version 1.06 Release Notes
(OS 4.18.32782 / Object 1.00.21)

MULTI MODE:

Fixes/Improvements:

EDIT / ARP / CC SEQ - After saving a new Arp or CC Seq preset, it is now selected.
EDIT - Fixed a rare crash that would sometimes occur after editing the FX chain of a KB3 program from within multi mode.

PROGRAM MODE:

Features:

Over 100 new FM programs.

Fixes/Improvements:

FM Engine - Improvements in voice allocation, voice stealing, layer cascading, and Program editing.
VAST Engine - Improvements in Oscillator Key Sync and XFADE Alg.
EDIT - The ChanCnt control source now properly sends values 1-127 when 1-127 voices are active.
EDIT - New Mode button shortcuts: The soft button functions for Layer Solo, Layer Mute, FX bypass and Edit Compare can now also be controlled using the MODE buttons. In Program Edit Mode:

Press the Program Mode button to toggle the layer Solo function.
Press the Multi Mode button to toggle the layer Mute function.
Press the Song Mode button to toggle the FX Bypass function.
Press the Global Mode button to toggle the Compare function.
EDIT / COMMON - Tuning Map implementation improved.
EDIT / Keymap - Playback Mode can no longer be changed for FM layers.
EDIT / KEYMAP / SAMPLE - Improvements to sample editing.
EDIT / ARP - Arpeggiator implementation improved.
EDIT / ARP / CC SEQ - After saving a new Arp or CC Seq preset, it is now selected.
EDIT / CC SEQ - CC Sequencer implementation improved.
EDIT / CC SEQ - Changing CC Seq presets now works in all cases.

GLOBAL MODE:

Features:

MAIN 1 - "Show Controllers" now offers the added option of "Yes Including Pedals".

Fixes/Improvements:

MAIN 1 - Display = Quick Access view: Keypad and User buttons now reflect proper LED state.
MAIN 1 - Display = Quick Access view: double button press of Channel Up/Down buttons selects QA Bank 1.
MAIN 1 - Display = Quick Access view: the QA Bank name is now also shown when the Global Mode Show Zone Info parameter is set to Yes.
OBJECTS - Improvements for Object and QA Bank utilities.

GENERAL:

Fixes/Improvements:

Keyboard Action: Improved velocity curve.
CANCEL/DELETE button working in Naming pages.

Past Release Notes
Version 1.00 - Sept 2019

Initial Release

-END-


Hammond B3,Kurzweil pc88,Hammond XK1c,MODX8,Roland D50,SY77,6ft Yamaha Grand.
Re: Kurzweil PC4
Fuster #3029723 02/18/20 10:48 PM
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Hi Fuster and other interested Kurzweil PC4 users, reviewers
Thanks for your post and thoughts on the PC4 and comparisons to Yamaha MODX.. I also used to own an MODX8 and like you I liked the board and sounds ,but didn’t find the action suited me. I then purchased a Roland RD2000 which I do like the action on .I love the ability of its 8 zones for layer and split usage for “multi-sounds iperformance “ and its sounds generally but as an older player who gigs regularly find it too heavy and cumbersome to lug. I am interested if you did in fact purchase a Kurzweil PC4 what you think of it having travelled down much the same road as I have.We are all searching for “the ultimate one board for gigs”
( dream on Yes- I know in an ideal world scenario!? )especially older players, small stages and performance areas and quick and easy setups. I say this even though I own quite a few keyboards current and vintage ( Legend organ, Rhodes,Wurly, Nord electro, Modx7 ....). Sometimes the gig just requires for a variety of reasons just one keyboard.
Any comments and opinions would be most appreciated.
Regards and greetings from “Downunder” Australia. 🎶 🎹😎

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3030017 02/21/20 03:27 AM
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Musomarc,
I recently received my Kurzweil PC4, and find the board and keybed very much to my liking.

..my path thru the long 'keyboard highway', has included Rhodes, Wurlitzer EP, Yamaha CP-25, Korg SV-1, RD-800, FP90, several Privias (incl. 5s), others, and I also have a KAWAI grand
..the continuing search over time has always been for improved sounds, keybed action, controls, and more recently programming flexibility.
..I think the PC4 'hits the spot', and is a true sleeper, and although I often bring a backup, this is my one gigging board.

As you talk about flexibility in numbers of zone, layers, multi-sounds....there is certainly an extensive capability within the PC4. (I anticipate you might have already waded thru some youtube's demos/discussion)
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kurzweil+pc4+demo

I might suggest before you make a decision, contact Kurzweil and see if the can direct you to a physical board you can try. Another contact point might be Weisersound.com. Dave Weiser is a dealer/retailer in the Boston/USA area, does sound design using Kurzweils, used to work for Kurzweil, and might be able to point you to somebody in the Sydney area that could get you access to one of these boards.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3030042 02/21/20 01:32 PM
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I'm close to grabbing a PC4 but might have to do it without actually playing one first. Can anybody confirm that it can switch between patches and setups without the sound cutting out (like the Korg Kronos)? The PC3s I had could do it to some extent depending on the complexity of the effects involved.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
Bill W #3030056 02/21/20 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill W
The PC3s I had could do it to some extent depending on the complexity of the effects involved.

Same. The basic architecture of the boards is the same. Though since the PC4 has 32 fx units instead of the 16 of the PC3, the odds of a combination not transitioning well are reduced. There is still the limitation when switching between KB3 organd an other sounds.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
AnotherScott #3030077 02/21/20 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by Bill W
The PC3s I had could do it to some extent depending on the complexity of the effects involved.

Same. The basic architecture of the boards is the same. Though since the PC4 has 32 fx units instead of the 16 of the PC3, the odds of a combination not transitioning well are reduced. There is still the limitation when switching between KB3 organd an other sounds.


Kind of what I expected - thanks for the response!


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3030081 02/21/20 07:22 PM
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I have a love-hate relationship with my pc361. It's just a great machine--when it works. The main issue I have had is the screen; it has the flickering issue others also seem to have had, and the tech I took mine to said he's seen the same issue with various Kurzweils over the years, and it requires a new screen (which ain't cheap).

Anyone have thoughts on these new ones and how reliability might go? Obviously time will tell.

I must say though that plastic chassis and wall wart are the two things I hate in my modx7 (though of course it's light! Everything is a compromise, argh!). The pc361 has great build quality, other than apparently the guts of the screen that is.

Last edited by Stokely; 02/21/20 07:27 PM.
Re: Kurzweil PC4
Stokely #3030096 02/21/20 10:13 PM
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I absolutely love my PC4 It's powerful - - I got Mine set -up like this guy's got;

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Re: Kurzweil PC4
Fuzzy1 #3030122 02/22/20 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Fuzzy1
I absolutely love my PC4 It's powerful - - I got Mine set -up like this guy's got;

Mounting the ribbon controller on the front key slip is a practical solution, but that would favor the use of a thumb rather than index finger. How is that location working out for you when you play, Fuzzy1?


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
Dnsmo #3030128 02/22/20 02:22 AM
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To be honest It works like a charm doing pitch bends . I haven't got around to setting the ribbon to split three ways but I think there's possibility's abound here . & I just started to mess with it , I right now messing with the relative & absolute & the spring on & off.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
Stokely #3030147 02/22/20 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Stokely
I have a love-hate relationship with my pc361. It's just a great machine--when it works. The main issue I have had is the screen; it has the flickering issue others also seem to have had, and the tech I took mine to said he's seen the same issue with various Kurzweils over the years, and it requires a new screen (which ain't cheap).

Anyone have thoughts on these new ones and how reliability might go? Obviously time will tell.

I must say though that plastic chassis and wall wart are the two things I hate in my modx7 (though of course it's light! Everything is a compromise, argh!). The pc361 has great build quality, other than apparently the guts of the screen that is.


It is possible to solve it. I took the display unit, open it up and solder the tube to the PCB. Not very easy, but possible


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
erik_nie #3030148 02/22/20 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by erik_nie
Originally Posted by Stokely
I have a love-hate relationship with my pc361. It's just a great machine--when it works. The main issue I have had is the screen; it has the flickering issue others also seem to have had, and the tech I took mine to said he's seen the same issue with various Kurzweils over the years, and it requires a new screen (which ain't cheap).

Anyone have thoughts on these new ones and how reliability might go? Obviously time will tell.

I must say though that plastic chassis and wall wart are the two things I hate in my modx7 (though of course it's light! Everything is a compromise, argh!). The pc361 has great build quality, other than apparently the guts of the screen that is.


It is possible to solve it. I took the display unit, open it up and solder the tube to the PCB. Not very easy, but possible


That is good to hear. The tech I had look at mine couldn't find the problem, but he wasn't a certified tech, just an amateur friend of a friend. Not many shops around here and I'm sure it would cost hundreds of $ just to have it looked at again. I only paid 875 used for it so I figured it still can work as a home controller (love the action). Now however I have two keys stuck at 127 velocity, this is probably just the dust/dirt in the contacts...

Anyway, despite my issue I can't help but be interested by Kurzweil, they do a lot of things right.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
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I got to spend about 2 hours with one Saturday morning and fell in love with it. Having owned several models of PC3, I was immediately comfortable navigating the PC4. The color screen really brings this powerhouse to life. The screen is smaller than I thought it would be, but crisp and very usable. The UI is slightly different in some respects, but I think the changes are for the better and take proper advantage of the additional real estate. I was prepared not to like the Medeli keybed based on comments I've been reading, but that was one of the highlights for me. It seems like a good compromise between piano and synth - very playable with a nice weight to it. Since I was at Chuck Levin's and they have pretty much one of everything on the floor, I took some time to compare the PC4's keybed to some other boards and I wouldn't rate it anywhere near the bottom of the list - it's certainly far better than the low-end Korg and Yamaha stuff. I also had no trouble triggering aftertouch, but the there's not a lot of travel between a little and a lot of it. Switching between patches and multis is pretty seamless (especially patches). As AnotherScott pointed out, the KB3 mode is a little slower to switch in/out, but it seamed faster than the PC3 and I don't see that an issue given that you can mute and unmute zones in a complex multi to work around that. I was concerned that there were only 2 switch pedal jacks, but they are TRS and with the proper splitter cable, you can plug in up to 4 pedals. One other thing that I really appreciated was the audio input jacks (both a 1/8th and L/R 1/4) - that gives you the ability to run external audio through those Kurzweil effects. And yes, it really is about 28 pounds. I'm definitely picking one up!


Korg Kronos 61 (2); Casio PX-350M; 2015 Macbook Pro and 2012 Mac Mini (Logic Pro X and Mainstage).

My Genesis Tribute Band: www.sellingfairfaxbythepound.com


Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3031374 03/03/20 04:50 AM
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Damn it Bill, now I'm gonna have to schedule another trip to Levin's. I hope they have a PC4 on the floor this coming summer. Do you know if they take trade-ins?


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Re: Kurzweil PC4
Tom Williams #3031405 03/03/20 11:29 AM
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Hey Tom - I don't know whether they take trade-ins, but I imagine they do. I'd call ahead to make sure they have it on display and in stock.

I went back yesterday and bought one. One issue I did run into last night was trying to load some of the older patches I have. It's supposed to be mostly compatible with the PC3 and PC3K but I couldn't figure out how to load some of the PC3K-specific sounds. I have all of the Art of Sound synth sounds and the PC3K versions of the sounds are mostly silent (with the exception of about 20 patches). Fortunately when I bought the patches, they also sent me the PC3 versions so I'll try those tonight.

Like its predecessors, it's also picky about USB sticks and I had to try a few before I got something to load from it. The PC4 recognized the files on some of them but it would tell me that the device isn't formatted when I tried to select/load/open them.


Korg Kronos 61 (2); Casio PX-350M; 2015 Macbook Pro and 2012 Mac Mini (Logic Pro X and Mainstage).

My Genesis Tribute Band: www.sellingfairfaxbythepound.com


Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3031760 03/05/20 01:00 PM
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Quick update - the PC3 versions of the Art of Sound patches did load and play correctly. Also, a fellow forumite suggested I try changing the extension of some of my .P3K files to .PC3 and that seemed to work as well. The PC4 is doesn't seem to load .P3K stuff directly so that might be a bug. It also doesn't seem to like to load really large backup files from my old PC3, but if I hand-select a smaller number of patches to load at a time, it does work.


Korg Kronos 61 (2); Casio PX-350M; 2015 Macbook Pro and 2012 Mac Mini (Logic Pro X and Mainstage).

My Genesis Tribute Band: www.sellingfairfaxbythepound.com


Re: Kurzweil PC4
Bill W #3031770 03/05/20 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill W
Quick update - the PC3 versions of the Art of Sound patches did load and play correctly. Also, a fellow forumite suggested I try changing the extension of some of my .P3K files to .PC3 and that seemed to work as well. The PC4 is doesn't seem to load .P3K stuff directly so that might be a bug. It also doesn't seem to like to load really large backup files from my old PC3, but if I hand-select a smaller number of patches to load at a time, it does work.

I'd report this to Kurzweil. This might be a bug....


57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil PC3; GEM Equinox; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini Desktop Module;
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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3040735 04/26/20 08:47 PM
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Okay, I’m in. Got a great price, about $1500 new, so couldn’t resist. Thanks for your thoughts, guys. Above all, I was convinced when I read how AnotherScott loves his PC4. In my experience, A/Scott shares the most useful keyboard advice in the entire forum Universe.

Last edited by Fleer; 04/27/20 01:24 AM.
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Re: Kurzweil PC4
Fleer #3041103 04/28/20 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Fleer
Okay, I’m in. Got a great price, about $1500 new, so couldn’t resist. Thanks for your thoughts, guys. Above all, I was convinced when I read how AnotherScott loves his PC4. In my experience, A/Scott shares the most useful keyboard advice in the entire forum Universe.

That's a great price. I'm really enjoying my PC4. If it's not a big no-go on this forum, can I ask where you ordered it from.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3041113 04/29/20 12:00 AM
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Sure, no prob, Felis, I’m quite grateful for the many insights you shared on the Kurzweil PC4.
You and A/Scott even convinced me to get the PC4 instead of Yamaha’s MODX8.
So I kept an eye out for sales in the US and Europe, but most prices remained around $/€1999.
Then last week Muziker, a large Eastern European chain, ran a special sale on a lot of stuff. In the Stage Piano section I found the PC4, described as a “Controller” and priced new at €1424 with more than 10 available.
And for purchases above €999 they added an Orange Crush Mini amp (usually around $70). But I had to be quick, as the sale would only run another day (last Sunday).
I then checked the Kurzweil International Distributors list and saw that Muziker is not only an official Kurzweil reseller, but even a country distributor. So I caved. Two days later (today) I received notice that DPD will deliver both items in three days, free of charge. Not bad at all.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3041131 04/29/20 02:10 AM
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PC4 peeps - hope you're all staying safe, healthy and sane! Got some quarantine goodies for ya: the delayed synth from Fly Like An Eagle and the Rhodes from Frampton Comes Alive. My gift to you!
Just shoot me an email. weiserdav@gmail.com

Quick demos:
https://www.facebook.com/david.weiser.73/videos/10218947881020404/
https://www.facebook.com/david.weiser.73/videos/10218947887380563/

Last edited by Dave Weiser; 04/29/20 02:10 AM.
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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3041136 04/29/20 02:34 AM
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Wow Dave, that’s sweet. Wish I already had mine.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
Fleer #3041154 04/29/20 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Fleer
Wow Dave, that’s sweet. Wish I already had mine.

If we weren't on lockdown I'd say come up to Haverhill for a visit and you can play mine! Once the world is done blowing up, you're welcome to drop by sometime.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3041165 04/29/20 05:27 AM
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Damn Dave, this are insanely spot on. Would they work on an Artis 7?

Nice work...:)

Re: Kurzweil PC4
zxcvbnm098 #3041172 04/29/20 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by zxcvbnm098
Would they work on an Artis 7?

Nice work...:)

Or on a Forte?


Home: Yamaha N2, Kurzweil PC3X, Roland SE02, Alpha Juno 1/2, JX8P, Matrix 1000, DAW Studio One, Pianoteq, VB3 and too many VST instruments
Stage: Forte 7, Nord Stage 3, KP500S or RCF TT08a
Re: Kurzweil PC4
TomKittel #3041196 04/29/20 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by TomKittel
Originally Posted by zxcvbnm098
Would they work on an Artis 7?

Nice work...:)

Or on a Forte?

They will not work on an Artis. The synth will work on Forte with a current OS. The EPs will not work in Forte because the EP samples are different. But if you have my custom Forte set, there are already Eps in there that cover this stuff pretty well.

Anyone with a Forte, PC4 or SP6 can feel free to hit me up and I'll send my custom set free of charge, the private reserve stuff that I usually give to my customers.
weiserdav@gmail.com

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3041670 05/02/20 02:48 AM
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Cheers, Dave Weiser, you’re a generous man. Should have ordered my PC4 from you.

On another topic, I’m wondering how many competitors include 32-bit DACs for dynamic range. And as far as I know, PC4 is the only Kurzweil that has them. Not even Forte does. Then again, Yamaha’s flagship Genos sports 32-bit DACs.

Last edited by Fleer; 05/02/20 03:22 AM.
Re: Kurzweil PC4
Fleer #3041746 05/02/20 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Fleer
Cheers, Dave Weiser, you’re a generous man. Should have ordered my PC4 from you.

On another topic, I’m wondering how many competitors include 32-bit DACs for dynamic range. And as far as I know, PC4 is the only Kurzweil that has them. Not even Forte does. Then again, Yamaha’s flagship Genos sports 32-bit DACs.

PC4 and SP6 both have 'em, and they also have slammin' good balanced outputs. Rare to see either of those items in that price range ($1995 and $1495).

The Forte's converters and analog outs are damned good though - I'll eat a bug if anyone can distinguish between PC4's and the Forte's DACs.

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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3041834 05/03/20 04:23 PM
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If they would make a PC4 - 76 I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3042070 05/05/20 12:33 AM
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I wonder why Kurzweil can be so expensive in the US. I’m seeing Forte at $5000 almost everywhere, while European pricing is almost half that.

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3042071 05/05/20 01:05 AM
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Pricing in the US for Kawai, Korg and Yamaha is usually pretty good. Nord tends to be high here compared to selling price in EU.

But things are all bizarre right now. The US dollar is trading at .92 Euro right now. A PC4 from Thommann is $1799 excluding VAT. It sells for $1999 US here.


Live: Casio PX-560, Roland VR-700
Home: Rebuilt 1910 Chickering 5'2", Fender Rhodes MKI 88k, Yamaha S90ES
Re: Kurzweil PC4
Dave Weiser #3042102 05/05/20 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Weiser
PC4 peeps - hope you're all staying safe, healthy and sane! Got some quarantine goodies for ya: the delayed synth from Fly Like An Eagle and the Rhodes from Frampton Comes Alive. My gift to you!
Just shoot me an email. weiserdav@gmail.com

Quick demos:
https://www.facebook.com/david.weiser.73/videos/10218947881020404/
https://www.facebook.com/david.weiser.73/videos/10218947887380563/

Many thanks for your rich “getting started kit”: it is a treasure of patches that demonstrate either the power of PC4 either your generosity.


VR-09, PX5S, VB3, MrRay, Gemini, K2500R, XStation
Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3042157 05/05/20 04:32 PM
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Question for Dave Weiser if I may. Do Kurzweil still have an R&D department in Boston? If so, is a visit possible?

Re: Kurzweil PC4
kenheeter #3042182 05/05/20 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by kenheeter
If they would make a PC4 - 76 I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

I second that...

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Re: Kurzweil PC4
ElmerJFudd #3042195 05/05/20 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Pricing in the US for Kawai, Korg and Yamaha is usually pretty good. Nord tends to be high here compared to selling price in EU.

But things are all bizarre right now. The US dollar is trading at .92 Euro right now. A PC4 from Thommann is $1799 excluding VAT. It sells for $1999 US here.

That is interesting and an explanation on the $200 gap would be useful. It might be a Kurzweil tactic vs " Country A vs Country B ".

Re: Kurzweil PC4
Fleer #3042217 05/05/20 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Fleer
Question for Dave Weiser if I may. Do Kurzweil still have an R&D department in Boston? If so, is a visit possible?

That's where I worked for 13 years! Got out for good behavior. razz It's in Waltham, where I lived until moving up to Haverhill last year. It's technically called YCRDI - Young Chang Research & Development Institute. When we would get asked all kinds of crazy requests from the sales guys and HQ we would joke that it stood for "You Can't Really Do It".

I no longer work there, and the guys are absolutely swamped with work, so not sure if I could swing a tour. I do a have a nice selection of Kurz boards in my studio here, including a prototype VA-1 that works!
https://www.facebook.com/david.weiser.73/videos/10218594162097652/
Come by anytime (when the world is done blowing up)!

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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3042218 05/05/20 11:37 PM
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Thanks Dave, will do when these awkward times have passed!

Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3042233 05/06/20 12:25 AM
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Yeah, I succumbed and got one too Fleer! I have had issues with Kurz's way of doing effects routing and saving in the past, but I think this 'board MIGHT just be the one "all-rounder" I've been looking for, so maybe I will spend a bit more time on learning it. Time will tell of course haha!


The trouble with doing the job correctly first time, is no-one will ever know just how difficult it was.
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Re: Kurzweil PC4
hipogrito #3042237 05/06/20 12:49 AM
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Yay! Great to hear, miden.
I’ve been reading up on Kurz from when Ray Kurzweil started with Stevie Wonder and launched the K250. And the K2000. And the K2661. And the PC3. It’s such an amazing company and I love the fact they’re still doing R&D out of Waltham, MA.
When my PC4 arrives tomorrow, I’ll be all over it.

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