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Kurzweil PC4 #3000126 07/24/19 07:47 PM
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hipogrito Offline OP
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Hi,

We have posted all the details about the PC4, including full Manual, at http://kurzweil.com/product/pc4/

Regards,
Fran

KC Island
Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: hipogrito] #3000139 07/24/19 09:03 PM
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Looking forward to giving the PC4 a spin. I've been looking for controller (for soft-synths) that also could back me up in the event of a computer failure. My PC3X is great, but throw that thing in a flight case and it is pretty hard to move around. The PC4's weight is right where I want it to be, but I'll want to play it to be sure the weight for action trade-off is acceptable for me. I don't love the DC jack for power (I always have a backup adapter for power, but an AC power connector feels more sturdy, in general), but that wouldn't prevent me from buying a PC4.

I know this is like Pepsi vs. Coke for many people, but I like the wheels on top of the keyboard to reduce the width. The Forte 7 is attractive to me for that reason (although I do like having all 88). We'll see how the action feels on the PC4 before I make a final decision.

Thanks for the manual - that helps answer a lot of questions.

Great job, Kurzweil!


"Inspiration is not a choice, it's got to search you out..." - Jason Falkner
Kurzweils, some oldie but goodie stuff from Yamaha/Korg, and soft-synths that I've barely explored.
Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: hipogrito] #3000151 07/24/19 10:56 PM
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Is the hammer action on the PC4 lighter or the same as the Forte?


Plan your work & work your plan.
Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: rickzjamm] #3000154 07/24/19 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rickzjamm
Is the hammer action on the PC4 lighter or the same as the Forte?

Different.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: rickzjamm] #3000156 07/24/19 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rickzjamm
Is the hammer action on the PC4 lighter or the same as the Forte?


It´s not only "different" (like Another Scott said),- it´s a different brand action ... Medelli vs Fatar.
Matter of taste,- as always ...

I myself, I´d prefer getting a PC4 w/ some balanced (non-hammer) weighted action and/or 61-key Fatar TP9S synth action like PC3/PC3K.
I´m not a big fan of "piano-hammer" actions for synth- & sample-playback workstations.

A.C.

Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: hipogrito] #3000157 07/24/19 11:29 PM
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Any guesses as to the price (U$D or compared with other models)...?


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: hipogrito] #3000161 07/24/19 11:35 PM
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Based on prices quoted elsewhere in the world and converted (which is not an assurance of accuracy), it looks like it will likely come in under $2k.


Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!
Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: hipogrito] #3000167 07/25/19 12:43 AM
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For a lightweight gigging all in one slab I was leaning towards the MODX because of price, sound, weight & hammer action but the PC4 may be the one.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: hipogrito] #3000173 07/25/19 01:58 AM
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I doubt that Kurz can match the price of the MODX. The question will be, do you need all the features of the PC4 to do what you need for your performances, and are you willing to pay for it. I expect it will be less than the Forte, Montage, Kronos - but how much less? On introduction the PC3K8 listed for $4100 with a street price around $3500.

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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: AnotherScott] #3000174 07/25/19 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by rickzjamm
Is the hammer action on the PC4 lighter or the same as the Forte?

Different.
Very different, IMO, and not in a good way. Played one at Gearfest, the action had this weird bouncy thing going on. Deal breaker. Of course, one man’s meat, YMMV, etc.

I did like some of the new pianos, but felt most of the rest of the sounds were not much of a departure from standard PC3 fare.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: rickzjamm] #3000180 07/25/19 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by rickzjamm
For a lightweight gigging all in one slab I was leaning towards the MODX because of price, sound, weight & hammer action but the PC4 may be the one.

I'd have to specifically compare the MODX interface to the PC4, but from what I know of both and their past histories, for an all-in-one, I'd prefer Kurz, because I tend to grab a lot of my sounds on the fly, and in a split environment (as you're more likely to have to make use of if you have just one board), Kurz is generally better than Yamaha at quick manipulations of sounds within your specified split regions (i.e. ease of selecting a new sound for just part of the board, adjusting its level, transposing its octave if need be).

In general, these seem like the big Kurz advantages:
* 4 engines: sample-based, FM, virtual analog, clonewheel organ (MODX has the first two)
* assignable additional outputs
* aftertouch
* sequencer (I don't care, but some do)
* double the expansion memory
* more polyphony
* more controller support (ribbon, 4 foot switches), more panel controls in general
* full 16 zone implementation... MODX is 16 overall but limits the keyboard itself to 8 (with seamless switching working only as long as you use just the first 4) and limits its MIDI controller functions to 8 channels as well (Kurz also is more flexible in letting you simultaneously trigger some of its sounds from another board)

But MODX has some nice things too... touchscreen, endless encoders, built in USB MIDI interface.

Originally Posted by Moonglow
I did like some of the new pianos, but felt most of the rest of the sounds were not much of a departure from standard PC3 fare.
Sonically, I think it's basically PC3 + Kore64 + a smaller-sample version of the Forte additions + 6-op FM synth.



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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: AnotherScott] #3000253 07/25/19 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by Moonglow
I did like some of the new pianos, but felt most of the rest of the sounds were not much of a departure from standard PC3 fare.
Sonically, I think it's basically PC3 + Kore64 + a smaller-sample version of the Forte additions + 6-op FM synth.

I’m not sure if the unit I played at Gearfest had all of those engines fully loaded. Obviously a prototype, the octave shift was messed up; it was shifted down an octave too far, with the top octave playing nothing (especially annoying when playing piano). I tried to adjust this, to include turning the unit off/on, but to no avail. I walked away from that experience feeling it may be to Kurzweil’s advantage to not have a demo available until some of these issues get resolved. Sort of a “something is not better than nothing” type of thing.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: hipogrito] #3000432 07/26/19 05:45 PM
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I'm interested in this if I can get used to the keys. Still not showing up at any retailers though.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: ElmerJFudd] #3000447 07/26/19 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
I doubt that Kurz can match the price of the MODX. The question will be, do you need all the features of the PC4 to do what you need for your performances, and are you willing to pay for it. I expect it will be less than the Forte, Montage, Kronos - but how much less? On introduction the PC3K8 listed for $4100 with a street price around $3500.
Current promised price is "between $1500 and $2000" for the 88 Key (which is the only real product at this time -- others are in our imaginations). So yeah, looks like they'll match the MODX price pretty easily.

Regarding features, I notice that just like the PC3's recycling (with sometimes inaccurate results) of K2600 manual content, most of the PC4 musician's guide seems to match the Forte manual. Finally, regarding manuals, there is the (slightly pathetic) instruction in the PC4 manual that if you want to know about FUNs, you chould check out the K2600 manuals.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: hipogrito] #3000449 07/26/19 07:37 PM
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That would be great. Even more so if a 76k synth action comes to fruition.
But a bizarre turn of events as a PC3K8 runs for $2200 on the second hand and B stock listings.
The next Artis revision should come in at $800! smile

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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: ElmerJFudd] #3000452 07/26/19 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd

But a bizarre turn of events as a PC3K8 runs for $2200 on the second hand and B stock listings.

Discontinued model... people getting what they can while they can from whom they can! It does have the better action. I don't know if it has any other advantage over a PC4.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: Bill W] #3000456 07/26/19 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill W
I'm interested in this if I can get used to the keys. Still not showing up at any retailers though.


The keys will be the same as the Kurzweil SP6. Anticipated availability in the USA is September 2019.
More info available at my website.

I've put together a video of the 4 built-in demo songs:


Last edited by PianoManChuck; 07/26/19 08:57 PM.

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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: hipogrito] #3000463 07/26/19 09:00 PM
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Hmmm same action as SP6.
That’s a pretty light weighted action.
Bordering on a semiweight synth feel no, SP6 owners?

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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: ElmerJFudd] #3000465 07/26/19 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Hmmm same action as SP6.
That’s a pretty light weighted action.
Bordering on a semiweight synth feel no, SP6 owners?

Not at all. Its a fully weighted hammer action board. Its a Medeli K6 action.
Personally I like the Medeli action better than the Fatar actions they use in other models.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: ElmerJFudd] #3000468 07/26/19 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Hmmm same action as SP6.
That’s a pretty light weighted action.
Bordering on a semiweight synth feel no, SP6 owners?

What makes a "weighted" action feel more like a piano than a "semiweighted" is not the amount of weight, it's the presence of a hammer mechanism. Based on the KA90 that I think uses the same action, it's kind of similar to Yamaha GHS. It doesn't feel anything like a semiweighted synth action, it's still a hammer action. Or to put it differently, one might argue about how good it is for piano, but no one is going to say it's good for organ. ;-)


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: hipogrito] #3000470 07/26/19 09:30 PM
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I played a Medeli digital piano in the FP-30, P45, PX-160 price range.
Was not impressed unfortunately.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: AnotherScott] #3000471 07/26/19 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Hmmm same action as SP6.
That’s a pretty light weighted action.
Bordering on a semiweight synth feel no, SP6 owners?

What makes a "weighted" action feel more like a piano than a "semiweighted" is not the amount of weight, it's the presence of a hammer mechanism. Based on the KA90 that I think uses the same action, it's kind of similar to Yamaha GHS. It doesn't feel anything like a semiweighted synth action, it's still a hammer action. Or to put it differently, one might argue about how good it is for piano, but no one is going to say it's good for organ. ;-)

With every 'instrument' or voice you select, the key action seems to be altered (firmware?) to approximate an action closer to what one would expect for that voice. I believe Nord uses this technique as well so that their "Stage" series can be used with both Piano and Organ selections.
The bottom line is that anyone considering a PC4 should get to their local retailer and try it out for themselves - or at least try an SP6 (until the PC4 is available) to get more of a feel for the action.
Also bear in mind that there's a rather extensive selection of "key velocity" (touch sensitivity) settings ranging from heavy to light to tailor the action closer to what one is more comfortable with.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: ElmerJFudd] #3000473 07/26/19 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
I played a Medeli digital piano in the FP-30, P45, PX-160 price range.
Was not impressed unfortunately.

Did you just walk up to it and play it? Or did you go to the section where you can adjust the key velocity (touch sensitivity) to a harder or lighter touch depending on your preference?
Most people walk up to any keyboard, try it, and make a decision as to whether they like it or not based on what they just experienced. Most people (unfortunately) don't know about changing the touch sensitivity, and they should ask the sales person for help with that. You'd be surprised what a simple change in that setting can make.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: hipogrito] #3000474 07/26/19 09:38 PM
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Sat in my local shop with all of them side by side and move one to the next. Back and forth, forth and back.
Critiquing what I like and don’t like about each.

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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: ElmerJFudd] #3000476 07/26/19 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Sat in my local shop with all of them side by side and move one to the next. Back and forth, forth and back.
Critiquing what I like and don’t like about each.

If you get a chance to do that again, try changing the touch sensitivity setting on each (all boards have that... its just a matter of getting to the section where you can make that adjustment) and see if you still have the same opinion of the board(s) you played.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: PianoManChuck] #3000480 07/26/19 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
I played a Medeli digital piano in the FP-30, P45, PX-160 price range.
Was not impressed unfortunately.

Sometimes the same action can play better in a different board.

Originally Posted by PianoManChuck
With every 'instrument' or voice you select, the key action seems to be altered (firmware?) to approximate an action closer to what one would expect for that voice. I believe Nord uses this technique as well so that their "Stage" series can be used with both Piano and Organ selections.

The Stage HA (not HP or SW) models are hammer actions that are above average for organ as hammer actions go, but still not nearly as good for organ as the non-hammer actions.

Also, the only thing that is altered based on the instrument/voice you select is that organ uses the high trigger point, an option only available for voices that do not need to sense velocity. (The same adjustment is available on their non-hammer actions.) But that alone is not enough to make a hammer action not-terrible for organ. The amount of force needed to trigger the note, the speed of the key return, how sharp or curved the side edge of the keys are are all factors.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: hipogrito] #3000481 07/26/19 10:08 PM
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The Medeli sling engine didn’t help at all. And the build was flimsy.
Maybe the Kurz sounds are just what the actual needs.
I’ll refrain from commenting on that until I’ve played one.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: hipogrito] #3000489 07/26/19 10:43 PM
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I have had an SP6 for about 18 months. I also have a Yamaha CP4, whose action I do prefer to the Kurzweil. However, I find myself using the Kurzweil more and more for big band gigs and small pop gigs. I recently tried to tailor (for several days!) the Yamaha to give me the sonic flexibility I enjoy with the Kurzweil in one pop group, used it for one gig, and reverted to the Kurzweil after that, much to the relief of my band mates. Compared to the CP4, the biggest difference in action is that I can’t get the dynamic range I’d like to have for APs. I put a MIDI monitor on the Kurzweil and had a hard time setting the sensitivity to where I could smoothly and repeatedly go from 0 to 127, as I can with the CP4. However, in a non jazz setting, that more limited sensitivity range on the Kurzweil keybed acts like a (desirable) subtle compression. And I find the high trigger for organs works quite well. I’ve resigned myself to putting up with the compromised keybed for the great Kurzweil sound.


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Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: hipogrito] #3000502 07/27/19 02:23 AM
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I recently acquired a Kurzweil SP6 that has the Medeli K6 action - reported to be the same keybed model that is in the new PC4.
My understanding is that the K6 is not the Medeli keybed used in previous models.

This keybed action is not 'lightweight'. It is a weighted keybed, that I find has a very pleasant action.
I compare this to also having a Privia PX-5s and a Kawai Grand. I have no trouble switching between the three with regards to 'piano action'. The Medeli keybed in the SP6 seems to be a little faster that that in the Px-5s (as is preferred for Organ, etc.). In the past I have also owned (and let go of) several other keyboards (Roland RD-800, Korg SV-1, a Roland FP series, and others)

In the case of the SP6/Medeli K6, I'm finding that Kurzweil has, in their included 10 velocity curves, provided adequate options to adjust touch for an appropriate sensitivity whether playing acoustic piano samples, organ, or a variety of other sounds.

Re: Kurzweil PC4 [Re: Jaspla] #3000509 07/27/19 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Jaspla
In the past I have also owned (and let go of) several other keyboards (Roland RD-800, Korg SV-1, a Roland FP series, and others)

I'd be curious to know how you compare the feel of playing EPs on the SV1 vs. the SP6.

Originally Posted by Jaspla
In the case of the SP6/Medeli K6, I'm finding that Kurzweil has, in their included 10 velocity curves, provided adequate options to adjust touch for an appropriate sensitivity whether playing acoustic piano samples, organ, or a variety of other sounds.

Can you save a particular velocity curve with a particular sound?



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