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Surface Pro 4 experience. Suggest interface? Latency tips?


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I ended up (as some suggested) not even worrying about my Surface Pro question discussed at https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2995044 because I was able to pick up a Surface Pro 4 with 8 GB RAM at a really tempting price, and have been playing with it this weekend. I have to say, I love the form factor and the keyboard feel (for what it is), and wish Apple had done something like this.

 

That said, as much as I admire the hardware, I had forgotten what a nightmare setting things up in Windows is, compared to iOS or Mac. Okay, I got a little ambitious in trying out so many different VSTs, but there is just so little consistency in installation procedures and interfaces, there are so many file formats, you get asked different questions, you have to manually move files into specified folders (or tell your environment--in my case, Gig Performer--to look in different places), there's a lot of clumsy folder navigation... (Boy, the Mac spoils you in file management, between things like spotlight search and the ability to drag a file from the desktop into an app's dialog box, and the ability to sort however you want without some insistence on grouping folders above files in your alphabetical list even when you say you want no grouping, and I can't believe all these years later, you still sometimes have to actually type a path... but onward, I'm just scratching the Surface.) Continuing in the list of setup complications... I've got stuff that requires UVI Workstation, XLN stuff which has its own approach, stuff that wants Kontakt player (which I haven't gotten to yet)... things that require a physical iLok, others that are okay with a soft iLok registration... jbridge to adapt 32-bit plug-ins... a not-straight-forward ASIO4ALL configuration... even a mix of files that were compressed rar vs. zip, necessitating downloading an unrar program... and whoops if you double-click something to open it when you were supposed to be sure to extract it first... it's a lot of effort and there are so many places you can screw up, I was reminded of a reason so many hardware folk are resistant. Oh and this was a fun one... pick the option to make apps bigger, and some of the apps end up positioning important controls off-screen. Ugh. And I was using a pen to navigate the small controls on the screen, but some buttons didn't like the pen and wouldn't activate until I used my finger instead, so I had to keep switching. Anyway, in the end, I did get at least most of it working the way I want, but even with ASIO4ALL, I'm getting too much latency out of the headphone output. Yeah, I knew that was probably going to be the case, but I'd hoped it would be "close enough." (Using my Macbook headphone jack is fine... but I wanted the tablet form factor for live use, and I wanted to run a couple of less common VSTs that are Windows only.) Which brings me to my question:

 

Any advice on an interface for this? I'd like it to be as small/portable as possible, taking power via USB from the Surface (which itself will be plugged into AC). I don't need it to have any audio inputs. I'd settle for just a single USB input. After all, functionally, just the single USB port on the Surface worked fine for me. I just need something minimal and simple that will let me do what I'm already doing on the Surface itself, except without the latency. Though as long as I"m getting an interface, I wouldn't mind something with more than 2 channels of audio output, so I'm open to that option as well. What's out there?

 

I'm also open to tips on lowering latency besides just playing with buffer size (which, confusingly, can be set in both ASIO4ALL *and* GigPerformer, and neither picks up the setting you make in the other). (And p.s. -- experimenting much with ASIO4ALL settings seems to quickly make things unstable, requiring reboot to get things working right again. I guess that's the downside of depending on some years-old freeware to get the OS to do what it should have been able to do in the first place.)

 

And yes, I'm sure some of the frustrations come from a general lack of familiarity with the Windows environment, despite using it on and off since 3.1. Okay, venting mode off.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Considering the Surface is a portable computer and is equiped with an ultralow voltage Intel CPU, everything is set to consume less power than on a normal computer. That said, you'd do good to minimize CPU throttling by going into the Power Options and Advanced Power Options and select all High Performance options on AC you can. This way, the Windows will not automatically lower your CPU speed or disconnect USB ports to preserve battery. You will notice the Surface cooling fans making a bit more noise than usual, especially when the Surface is being pushed harder, but that's a small price to pay for the performance gain in my opinion. Surfaces are great machines, but they're no powerhouses, so every bit of performance you can get out of them will keep audio and latency issues away.

 

Furthermore: update your drivers and firmware and keep them up to date. Microsoft updates Surface drivers on a regular basis and although Windows drivers had a negative track record in the past, they will increase stability and performance. This is especially usefull for chipset and USB interface, as a lot of the issues surrounding latency and audio interface will come from those areas. Also, keep Windows up to date.

Trumpet player by trade, but fell in love with keys too.
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Welcome to my daytime world, I enjoy chilling with OSX and MainStage in my leisure time, just works, more music, less IT. No recommendation on interface but how do you plan to get midi in from your controller with just one USB port? Maybe consider a midi plus audio interface? One box, one connection to the Surface. Also anything from a lower cost Focusrite to the better but much dearer RME will come with its own drivers. Start working on latency issues, if any, once you choose your interface and install the drivers.

 

As you will using it plugged in +1 to max power profile, yeah baby!

A misguided plumber attempting to entertain | MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P

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Congrats. Quite robust laptop.

I"d suggest the first thing to do is update all drivers and bios.

Then run a DPC latency checker and eliminate any problems.

Pick an interface that gets a thumb up from someone with a PC here who thumbs up the drivers on Windows 10.

 

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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The latest Focusrite drivers are giving me a headache on Windows 10, so I'd pass on those at the moment. When I change something in the configuration of my Focusrite audio interface and save it, the driver crashes in the background. When I start my DAW, it doesn't recognize my audio interface. Minor issue, but still.
Trumpet player by trade, but fell in love with keys too.
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Have you recently updated to 1903? There are some reported audio issues and I have a minor but weird video issue with colour hues.

A misguided plumber attempting to entertain | MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P

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They cost a little more, and maybe overkill, but I've never seen RME jerk around about drivers.

The Babyface Pro has balanced XLR io and a breakout cable for MIDI. Not bus powered though, needs its power supply. Comes with case.

 

 

Although I am sure there are plenty of cheaper audio interfaces that you can get working reliably with Win10 on a Surface Pro.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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That said, you'd do good to minimize CPU throttling by going into the Power Options and Advanced Power Options and select all High Performance options on AC you can. This way, the Windows will not automatically lower your CPU speed or disconnect USB ports to preserve battery.

I'll check that, thanks. And now that I think of it, while I've almost always had it plugged in (where I assume those settings would not make a difference?) it did not happen to be plugged in when I was checking the latency!

 

how do you plan to get midi in from your controller with just one USB port?

Well, with the built-in audio, all I needed was the one USB port to connect my controller. But yes, if the whole idea here is to avoid the built-in audio, then this external interface needs to have a USB (or MIDI) input and (at least) 2 channels of audio output. But the interfaces I quickly looked at also have (unnecessary) mic inputs, which works against keeping the box as small as possible (and perhaps working against not needing its own AC power?).

 

(Mini-rant mode back on: Yet another complication... even just switching it to play from speakers to using the headphone jack wasn't straightforward! And all the sound options have cryptic names. They can't call the choices "Built in speakers" and "Headphone output", they have to call them things like SST1 and SST2. What the heck does SST stand for, anyway?)

 

run a DPC latency checker

Thanks, I didn't know about that.

 

Have you recently updated to 1903? .

Beats me. I just said Yes to all the updates it suggested.

 

They cost a little more, and maybe overkill, but I've never seen RME jerk around about drivers.

The Babyface Pro has balanced XLR io and a breakout cable for MIDI.

Ha... $750 for that one, $500 for their cheapest model... that's more than I paid for the entire Surface Pro! ;-) Man, it should not cost as much as another computer to get the low latency the Mac gives me for nothing. I'm still hoping that some of the other tips here might get me acceptable performance with no extra interface, but I'm not counting on it. Maybe making sure I use lightweight VSTs is part of the solution. I happened to be testing with B5, which is somewhat resource intensive. I'll do my next testing with Blue3, and make sure I'm plugged into AC, and check some of the other stuff mentioned here, maybe I'll get lucky.

 

One more question for anyone who might know: Is there a way to silence all alerts? Since at the moment I'm still just using the headphone out, I really don't want to hear the various beeps and bongs mixed in with my VST output. (Why does Windows have to be so noisy? A bong to let me know I plugged in a USB device? Why? {sigh})

 

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Scott have you tried ASIO 4ALL with the internal sound card - it provides a low latency ASIO driver for generic sound cards.

http://www.asio4all.org

 

Here's a link to a DPC latency checker too, to see if the system can produce reliable audio streaming.

https://www.thesycon.de/eng/latency_check.shtml

 

Here's how they say to stop alerts and system sounds in Win10

https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/turn-notification-system-sounds-windows-10

 

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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I've found this guy to be super knowledgeable regarding using the Surface for music. He's posted extensive videos regarding configuring/setup as well as recommended hardware, software, etc.

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/MoltenMusicTech/videos

Soul, R&B, Pop from Los Angeles

http://philipclark.com

 

Cannonball Gerald Albright Signature Alto, Yamaha YC73, Fender Rhodes, Roland Juno-106, Yamaha MX61, Roland VR-09, MicroKorg XL, Maschine Mikro, Yamaha Reface CP, Roland MKS-50

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Scott have you tried ASIO 4ALL with the internal sound card

Yes, what I described using ASIO4ALL was only with the internal sound card (i.e. headphone output). That's why I'm asking about an interface. ;-)

 

Here's a link to a DPC latency checker too, to see if the system can produce reliable audio streaming.

https://www.thesycon.de/eng/latency_check.shtml

Thanks, I also saw that sweetwater's site suggests one called LatencyMon from Resplendence.

 

Here's how they say to stop alerts and system sounds in Win10

https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/turn-notification-system-sounds-windows-10

Yes, I had seen that, or something similar. It addresses notifications from apps, but not system sounds.

 

I've found this guy to be super knowledgeable regarding using the Surface for music. He's posted extensive videos regarding configuring/setup as well as recommended hardware, software, etc.

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/MoltenMusicTech/videos

Yeah, I found him too. One of his videos is where I found out that you have to change one of the ASIO4ALL settings away from what is essentially a 5.1 multimedia implementation by default, to simple 2 channel stereo, that was valuable. But I have to say, I find his videos annoying! They could easily be half the length and not lose any important content. The funny thing is, you can see he edits it... he just doesn't edit it nearly enough for my taste. Too much rambling. Though part of it is also that he's so DAW focussed, which is not my application at all. But yeah, I did get some useful info there.

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Hi Scott

 

A quick caveat for you (and other new Surface Pro Tablet users) - be careful with the Surface Pro keyboard!

 

The keyboard "attaches" to the computer unit magnetically. Sadly the attachment is not strong enough to be able to lift up the computer/screen unit.

 

Thus, if you forget and get up from sitting, (lets say to go have a beer in the kitchen), and try to pick up your "laptop" by the keyboard to go with you, you will find that the keyboard will stay in your hand, but the Surface Pro will be the ground/table/whereaver. Lost track of the number of times I've made this mistake.

 

Note - other than that, I love most things about the Surface Pro (had one for about 2.5 years now). Except (ironically) the form factor, due to the detachable keyboard.

 

I think the Surface Pro Notebook solves this problem, but sadly, I can't afford one :(

 

 

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The big advantage of the Surface Pro over the Notebook is that the Surface Pro has all its connectivity in the screen portion, so it really functions as a complete tablet when the keyboard is not attached, while the Notebook requires you to have the keyboard attached to have all its connectivity. Since my focus is on using it as a tablet for live performance, the Notebook would not work as well.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Yeah, I found him too. One of his videos is where I found out that you have to change one of the ASIO4ALL settings away from what is essentially a 5.1 multimedia implementation by default, to simple 2 channel stereo, that was valuable. But I have to say, I find his videos annoying! They could easily be half the length and not lose any important content. The funny thing is, you can see he edits it... he just doesn't edit it nearly enough for my taste. Too much rambling. Though part of it is also that he's so DAW focussed, which is not my application at all. But yeah, I did get some useful info there.

 

I agree about the videos they are hard to watch. (though not as annoying as trying to watch an informational YouTube video and the contributor put an annoying music track behind it you have to mute) I have no trouble with a Surface Pro 4 with a non-powered hub with a controller and the Focusrite USB sound card. It's actually the hub sold at Walmart (store not online) (after a USB3, and powered hub, did not work well)

 

The most trouble I had was with Pianoteq I wrote before about and had no solution (except not use Pianoteq with the SP4) until I lucked on to a post after researching it for quite a while with no solution. The fix was not on the Molten site AND a serious issue. Pianoteq Pro would crack, pop, CPU-error and ran terrible. The solution was to go into the Device Manager and disable the battery tracking percentage. Worked like a charm and I was able to use the Surface Pro with Pianoteq after reading the person's solution I stumbled on. The Windows 10 updates will, I believe, fix this sometime. I did notify Pianoteq tech support of the fix. When done you can turn on the battery meter anytime and it charges fine without it on. The SP4 is awesome. Mine runs any Piano sample set, full size, effortlessly. I have a few in there including Hammersmith. Ivory, Garritan etc. My SP4 is an i7 with 16G of Ram (though my previous i5 ran them fine too) with 512GB. I suspect it would run the Vienna sample set too if I made some space.

 

Meanwhile, Apple continues, infinitum, to make a high-end tablet with a phone operating system. (This is Cook's 'Apple', imo - we would see different products if Jobs was still around. Now they will delay 5G on the phones for 2019 and the touch-bar thing instead of a touch-screen is ridiculous as Apple falls behind)

KUDOS! Microsoft for the SP4 and later models

 

WH

 

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Have you recently updated to 1903? .

Beats me. I just said Yes to all the updates it suggested

Start > Settings > Update and Security > View Update History

OR

Start > Settings > System > About

 

Like OSX more than one way to get the same answer.

 

One more question for anyone who might know: Is there a way to silence all alerts? Since at the moment I'm still just using the headphone out, I really don't want to hear the various beeps and bongs mixed in with my VST output. (Why does Windows have to be so noisy? A bong to let me know I plugged in a USB device? Why? {sigh})

Start > Settings > System > Sound > Advanced Sound Options > System sounds - set to "0" or mute..

 

Once you get familiar with the layout the Ui is ALMOST as good as OSX.

A misguided plumber attempting to entertain | MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P

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Yeah, I found him too. One of his videos is where I found out that you have to change one of the ASIO4ALL settings away from what is essentially a 5.1 multimedia implementation by default, to simple 2 channel stereo, that was valuable. But I have to say, I find his videos annoying! They could easily be half the length and not lose any important content. The funny thing is, you can see he edits it... he just doesn't edit it nearly enough for my taste. Too much rambling. Though part of it is also that he's so DAW focussed, which is not my application at all. But yeah, I did get some useful info there.

 

I agree about the videos they are hard to watch. (though not as annoying as trying to watch an informational YouTube video and the contributor put an annoying music track behind it you have to mute) I have no trouble with a Surface Pro 4 with a non-powered hub with a controller and the Focusrite USB sound card. It's actually the hub sold at Walmart (store not online) (after a USB3, and powered hub, did not work well)

 

The most trouble I had was with Pianoteq I wrote before about and had no solution (except not use Pianoteq with the SP4) until I lucked on to a post after researching it for quite a while with no solution. The fix was not on the Molten site AND a serious issue. Pianoteq Pro would crack, pop, CPU-error and ran terrible. The solution was to go into the Device Manager and disable the battery tracking percentage. Worked like a charm and I was able to use the Surface Pro with Pianoteq after reading the person's solution I stumbled on. The Windows 10 updates will, I believe, fix this sometime. I did notify Pianoteq tech support of the fix. When done you can turn on the battery meter anytime and it charges fine without it on. The SP4 is awesome. Mine runs any Piano sample set, full size, effortlessly. I have a few in there including Hammersmith. Ivory, Garritan etc. My SP4 is an i7 with 16G of Ram (though my previous i5 ran them fine too) with 512GB. I suspect it would run the Vienna sample set too if I made some space.

 

Meanwhile, Apple continues, infinitum, to make a high-end tablet with a phone operating system. (This is Cook's 'Apple', imo - we would see different products if Jobs was still around. Now they will delay 5G on the phones for 2019 and the touch-bar thing instead of a touch-screen is ridiculous as Apple falls behind)

KUDOS! Microsoft for the SP4 and later models

 

WH

 

Side Note:

And yet there are so many developers that have brought every feature you can think of to the iOS platform despite the mobile OS. And eventually having some things put into the OS - including support for AU3. Most recently they have decided to break off with an iPad OS - which will have functions not meant for the phones. And the horsepower on the most recent iPad Pro is impressive - if not still skimpy on RAM. Although this model is too expensive for my needs, personally.

 

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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Yep, I use an old Surface Pro 3 i7 for particular gigs, shedding, DAW work, etc.

example: testing B5 V2 on the SP3 with XK3 as controller via ASIO4ALL.

Limitation involved vs my desktops but the Surface works well after some setup and streamlining.

 

[video:youtube]i6OAlKfDYTQ

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I have no trouble with a Surface Pro 4 with a non-powered hub with a controller and the Focusrite USB sound card.

Okay, I was finding this pretty discouraging. I was hoping for clean (no octopus) ergonomic simplicity, like with the iPad... where if I want to, I can just run the keyboard into the lightning connector (with some minimal cabling) and audio out the headphone jack, done, no extra boxes. The higher latency on the Surface (even with new "improved" wasapi or with asio4all) made that impossible, so I was resigned to one more box, a small interface, but as Markay alluded to early on ("how do you plan to get midi in from your controller with just one USB port?!") and you've indicated again here, even that might not be enough, it looks like I'd need a hub too! I didn't realize that all these "audio interfaces" were literally just audio interfaces, and weren't set up to handle the MIDI as well. And I guess the interface manufacturers figure you probably have more than one USB port, so they don't care about "replacing" the one they're taking up, it's usually not the issue it is on the Surface. Bottom line, most interfaces (at least in the moderate price range) have audio inputs (which I don't care about), but no MIDI inputs (whether USB or DIN). Bugger! I realized that what I was really looking for was the equivalent of a Korg PlugKey style device for Surface Pro, to simply handle MIDI In and audio out, but it didn't seem to exist. But I persevered... and I found two possibilities.

 

There's the M-Audio M-track 2x2M... MIDI In, audio out, hoorah! It still has audio ins that I don't care about, and it weighs 2 lbs (heavier than the Surface Pro itself), and it's silly big for my needs (6' x 7.8", and 2.8' high). But at $150, it's acceptably priced. And then there was, of all things, the Alesis Control Hub, which in fact I had in a box somewhere, unused and forgotten about. No audio in (yay), small and light (yay), and even already paid for (yay). Could this possibly work? Hooked it up, fiddled with settings for ASIO4ALL and Gig Performer, and voila, perfectly acceptable latency! And if you don't happen to already own one, it's just $79. I feel like I just discovered chocolate!

 

I've also realized, if you have an iPad/iPhone, this is a much better device than a PlugKey. Like a Plugkey, you have MIDI IN, stereo lines outs, headphone jack, and a volume control. But better, the main outs and the headphone out each have their own volume control (which also means you can easily shut the volume to the mains while you're checking something with phones), and it has a MIDI OUT so you can also take advantage of apps that do things like send MIDI Program Changes back out to your hardware. It doesn't have the charging port, but since the PlugKey is lightning and the Alesis is not, you'd need to buy Apple's CCK to connect the Alesis to the iPad anyway, and as long as you get the right one, that gives you your charging port. Plus, since it's not hard-wired to lightning, unlike the Plugkey, you can use the same interface on your PC/Mac (or newer iOS device without another adapter). Alesis + CCK = $118. I'd say that's a better deal that $105 for the PlugKey, considering its advantages. (Though I see some places are marking down the PlugKey, I wonder if it's being phased out in favor of perhaps a non-lightning specific version.)

 

One more perk of the Alesis... you can connect a single or dual footswitch, which can toggle (alternately send values 0 or 127) on CC#14 (and CC#15 if you use dual switch) on MIDI channel 1. Quirky little feature. But it could come in handy, perhaps for something like dedicating a footswitch to toggle the rotary effect on your VST organ, without having to repurpose or monopolize the use of an existing pedal. Kind of like having a bonus free one of these $50 Audiofront MIDI Expression adapters, though not as flexible as those are. Still, it could be useful.

 

This is Cook's 'Apple', imo - we would see different products if Jobs was still around.

O/T but while I admire Jobs' marketing and aesthetic brilliance, I was not a fan of his "my way or the highway" philosophy, and while I agree things would be different if he were still around, I would not assume they would necessarily be better. For example, from what I recall, he was adamant about offering the iPad in only one size, a decision that I think was undone to our benefit with his passing. The iPad Mini and the 12.9" Pro are both very nice options to have. But one could also speculate about what "revolutionary" devices only he could have brought to market, too.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I adore my surface. I had a surface pro 4 but it developed a screen flicker - which regrettable is a known fault. As a result they replaced it (free of charge) with the new surface pro 2018, much to my delight. :) I was very pleased with the customer service.

 

I use it with a focusrite scarlett and cubase. It is a delight to use for music projects: a true portable studio which I can work on in the garden on hot days.....I also love being able to rip off the keyboard and read music from it at my piano or on a gig. I have bought one of those tiny, ultra cheap little hubs which turn your one USB port into four. It gets a lot of use. I also have the surface dock in my music room which allows for lots of connections.

 

Yes it is fiddly to setup and get used to, but once it is going it is beautiful. And to swap to a new one is very easy (if you have everything backed up). I like the way that all files and things are easily accessible in windows and are simple to copy onto another device. I think the surface design is close to perfect and hope they stick with it.

"Turn your fingers into a dust rag and keep them keys clean!" ;) Bluzeyone
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Knuckles, are you running a VST host on your Surface Pro 4 2018 for live performance/playing?

Have you been able to get low latency performance with your Scarlett in this scenario?

What VSTs are you using?

 

Thanks!

 

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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I have bought one of those tiny, ultra cheap little hubs which turn your one USB port into four.

As you may have seen in my previous post, I thought I was all set without needing a hub at all... until I realized that I might want to use some of the VSTs that require a hard iLok, requiring another USB port. Gotcha! I did see that there are some hubs that essentially "snap onto the side" of the Surface, no dangling pieces, it effectively just becomes part of the tablet itself, which is cool. I'm worried about whether they'll work with a protective case on the tablet, though. I ordered this case from Youtec. I could imagine having to modify it to work with these "attachable" hubs... and I don't know if the side plastic around the ports is "rubbery enough" that it could be easily altered.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I adore my surface. I had a surface pro 4 but it developed a screen flicker - which regrettable is a known fault. As a result they replaced it (free of charge) with the new surface pro 2018, much to my delight. :) I was very pleased with the customer service.

 

I use it with a focusrite scarlett and cubase. It is a delight to use for music projects: a true portable studio which I can work on in the garden on hot days.....I also love being able to rip off the keyboard and read music from it at my piano or on a gig. I have bought one of those tiny, ultra cheap little hubs which turn your one USB port into four. It gets a lot of use. I also have the surface dock in my music room which allows for lots of connections.

 

Yes it is fiddly to setup and get used to, but once it is going it is beautiful. And to swap to a new one is very easy (if you have everything backed up). I like the way that all files and things are easily accessible in windows and are simple to copy onto another device. I think the surface design is close to perfect and hope they stick with it.

 

 

Yeah, gotta hand it to them. MS is providing one of the best portable options out there currently with the surface models.

*and Apple's changed, they've been a joke for years now. They swapped their core user base for...iPhone crap. SMH.

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Okay, I was finding this pretty discouraging. I was hoping for clean (no octopus) ergonomic simplicity, like with the iPad... where if I want to, I can just run the keyboard into the lightning connector (with some minimal cabling) and audio out the headphone jack, done, no extra boxes. The higher latency on the Surface (even with new "improved" wasapi or with asio4all) made that impossible, so I was resigned to one more box, a small interface, but as Markay alluded to early on ("how do you plan to get midi in from your controller with just one USB port?!") and you've indicated again here, even that might not be enough, it looks like I'd need a hub too! I didn't realize that all these "audio interfaces" were literally just audio interfaces, and weren't set up to handle the MIDI as well. And I guess the interface manufacturers figure you probably have more than one USB port, so they don't care about "replacing" the one they're taking up, it's usually not the issue it is on the Surface. Bottom line, most interfaces (at least in the moderate price range) have audio inputs (which I don't care about), but no MIDI inputs (whether USB or DIN). Bugger! I realized that what I was really looking for was the equivalent of a Korg PlugKey style device for Surface Pro, to simply handle MIDI In and audio out, but it didn't seem to exist. But I persevered... and I found two possibilities.

 

There's the M-Audio M-track 2x2M... MIDI In, audio out, hoorah! It still has audio ins that I don't care about, and it weighs 2 lbs (heavier than the Surface Pro itself), and it's silly big for my needs (6' x 7.8", and 2.8' high). But at $150, it's acceptably priced. And then there was, of all things, the Alesis Control Hub, which in fact I had in a box somewhere, unused and forgotten about. No audio in (yay), small and light (yay), and even already paid for (yay). Could this possibly work? Hooked it up, fiddled with settings for ASIO4ALL and Gig Performer, and voila, perfectly acceptable latency! And if you don't happen to already own one, it's just $79. I feel like I just discovered chocolate!

 

You don't need an audio interface, you can use the headphone jack out (ASIO4ALL) and a usb midi into the surface for the simplistic setup. No latency issues here.

The interface route can offer features you may need/want (vol control, mic or 1/4in stereo I/O , 5-pin DIN midi, etc.).

 

A simple, small 4+ port USB3 (powered or unpowered) will allow for multi usb midi controllers, and/or a hard drive.

 

An even better route is to use the Surface Dock. All in one unit for port expansion, audio mini jack, and provides ample power for USB devices, hard drives, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-PD9-00003-Surface-Dock/dp/B0163HP38W/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=surface+dock&qid=1564351687&s=gateway&sr=8-3

 

also there's this (for 5-pin DIN midi)

https://www.amazon.com/midiplus-Tbox2X2-USB-MIDI-Interfaces/dp/B00WU6F4M6/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=midiplus+tbox+2x2&qid=1564351653&s=gateway&sr=8-1

 

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You don't need an audio interface, you can use the headphone jack out (ASIO4ALL) and a usb midi into the surface for the simplistic setup. No latency issues here.

Interesting. That's exactly what I tried, and couldn't get acceptable latency. The Alesis interface fixed it. I'd experiment further, but since I already own the Alesis anyway, I"m not motivated. ;-)

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Yep, I use an old Surface Pro 3 i7 for particular gigs, shedding, DAW work, etc.

example: testing B5 V2 on the SP3 with XK3 as controller via ASIO4ALL.

Limitation involved vs my desktops but the Surface works well after some setup and streamlining.

 

 

I have read that the Surface Pro 3 (I had one not long ago but did not test it for audio apps, I used the SP4) is reportedly, fairly issue-free with just about any audio program free of glitches as long as the CPU can handle the app and there is enough space, conversely, the SP4 on up has to be corrected/tweaked in some situations. You have the i7 which is the better SP3 tablet to use..

 

WH

 

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My SP4 has the i5, so that could be a factor...

 

No, although RAM amount is important, the i5 is just as functional. If you're having issues as you've described me thinks you have some learning to do to wrangling VST/Daw system streamlining and setup.

This is not a slight btw, just observation based on replies from you so far on all this.

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Even better - build an NUC PC (to run any/all VST's). That would be the better investment.

I want the tablet form factor. And I got the Surface at a great price, all ready to go, and well supported. (Well, as ready to go and as supported as any Windows PC can be.)

 

If you're having issues as you've described me thinks you have some learning to do to wrangling VST/Daw system streamlining and setup.

I have no issues, now that I added the interface. Whether I could have gotten acceptable latency out of the onboard audio, I don't know, but since I have no issues, I'm not sufficiently motivated to find out.

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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  • 2 weeks later...
Knuckles, are you running a VST host on your Surface Pro 4 2018 for live performance/playing?

Have you been able to get low latency performance with your Scarlett in this scenario?

What VSTs are you using?

 

Thanks!

Hi Elmer. Apologies to the extreme delay in replying....busy summer. :-)

I never use my computer for live performance (except to read music from sometimes) so I am afraid I can't really help much with your question. I am far from being an expert - or even decently competent in the use of midi etc. , but my approach towards latency is usually one of the following::

 

1. Attempt to get rid of it through using a small buffer size.

2. Not turn on the little monitoring symbol on the track to be recorded. This eliminates latency entirely for certain recordings.

3. Put up with it if it is an easy midi recording...or play the track entirely by feel without hearing what I am doing.

4. Listen to the keys directly through headphones and play the backing through speakers.

 

I expect there are better ways of dealing with it........... But It is not always a problem ....it seems to depend on various other factors ....

 

My vsts are mostly the ones which come with Cubase as well as a drum one which came with my little finger drumming machine. :-)

"Turn your fingers into a dust rag and keep them keys clean!" ;) Bluzeyone
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