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We"re covering Linda Ronstadt"s version of 'Back In The USA'. I"ve spent a considerable amount of time and effort to get at least an approximation of the fabulous piano fills. Guitar player is playing over EVERY ONE of them. I more or less politely ask what the f*ck he"s doing.

 

'Oh, I found this great live version with Chuck Berry and Keith Richards with Linda Ronstadt!'

 

That"s about the most guitar-asshole statement I"ve ever heard.

Wikipedia says, "On October 16, 1987, Ronstadt joined Chuck Berry onstage at the Fox Theater in St Louis as part of a concert celebrating Berry's sixtieth birthday. According to production assistant Mark Slocombe, despite Ronstadt having rehearsed with the band playing in the key of C, Berry's guitar playing on the actual concert performance of "Back in the U.S.A." necessitated the band performing in the key of G: Slocombe â "Linda Ronstadt's such a pro, you really don't hear her strain or muff it. But ... she was so pissed off when she walked off that stage she went right through the Green Room, right out the stage door, climbed into her limo and never came back for the second show. [berry's birthday fête consisted of two concerts planned to feature identical set lists and guest performers.]" The Ronstadt/Berry performance of "Back in the U.S.A." was featured in the filmation of Berry's sixtieth birthday concert: the 1987 movie release Hail! Hail! Rock 'n' Roll, with the track being included on the soundtrack album: according to Slocombe, "they had a hard time getting [Ronstadt] to sign the release for the [performance] because she was so pissed off." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_in_the_U.S.A.

 

Here's the video of that performance:

 

These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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Wikipedia says, "On October 16, 1987, Ronstadt joined Chuck Berry onstage at the Fox Theater in St Louis as part of a concert celebrating Berry's sixtieth birthday. According to production assistant Mark Slocombe, despite Ronstadt having rehearsed with the band playing in the key of C, Berry's guitar playing on the actual concert performance of "Back in the U.S.A." necessitated the band performing in the key of G: Slocombe â "Linda Ronstadt's such a pro, you really don't hear her strain or muff it. But ... she was so pissed off when she walked off that stage she went right through the Green Room, right out the stage door, climbed into her limo and never came back for the second show. [berry's birthday fête consisted of two concerts planned to feature identical set lists and guest performers.]" The Ronstadt/Berry performance of "Back in the U.S.A." was featured in the filmation of Berry's sixtieth birthday concert: the 1987 movie release Hail! Hail! Rock 'n' Roll, with the track being included on the soundtrack album: according to Slocombe, "they had a hard time getting [Ronstadt] to sign the release for the [performance] because she was so pissed off." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_in_the_U.S.A.

 

Here's the video of that performance:

 

Wow, there is so much interesting stuff to see (or at least think you see) in that video once you know the above. That piano entrance now seems clearly to include a little hunting expedition for the right key, and the backing vox take a second to settle in, and all those looks Ronstadt shoots over to her right toward Berry now seem to have way more behind them than just musical eye contact.

 

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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Wikipedia says, "On October 16, 1987, Ronstadt joined Chuck Berry onstage at the Fox Theater in St Louis as part of a concert celebrating Berry's sixtieth birthday. According to production assistant Mark Slocombe, despite Ronstadt having rehearsed with the band playing in the key of C, Berry's guitar playing on the actual concert performance of "Back in the U.S.A." necessitated the band performing in the key of G:

The song in in that video is in Ab. Bad analog transfer? 44.1 to 48K mistake? Chuck Berry from an alternate universe?

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She's smiling through that whole thing, even gives Chuck a kiss on her way off stage. You hear Chuck say at the very beginning "G what your pitch is" or something like that. I don't know if he's calling the key or saying "Gee something something." I wonder ... could she really pull that off a whole fifth (or fourth, depending on which way you're counting) away from the key she rehearsed it in? It sounds like it fits her vocal range well. Should it have been much higher? Or lower?
These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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The song in in that video is in Ab. Bad analog transfer? 44.1 to 48K mistake? Chuck Berry from an alternate universe?
From brief looks at the guitarists' hand positions, it looks like they're playing in G. Unless they're tuned up a half step, which seems unlikely.

 

These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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It might be a messed up transfer. It's almost in Ab - just a hair flat. Possibly 44.1 audio tagged as 48K. Definitely not G! Or maybe something is screwy on my computer?

 

[EDIT] - "It's not you, it's me"

 

There is a sample rate mis-match going on somewhere in my system but it's possible there's something up with the video too. The audio extraction tools I've tried ("You Tube to mp3" and a web-based service) both choke on the link. So something is up. Anyway, it's not germane to the thread and I'm done wasting time with this although I'm curious what the cause is.

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She's smiling through that whole thing, even gives Chuck a kiss on her way off stage. You hear Chuck say at the very beginning "G what your pitch is" or something like that. I don't know if he's calling the key or saying "Gee something something." I wonder ... could she really pull that off a whole fifth (or fourth, depending on which way you're counting) away from the key she rehearsed it in? It sounds like it fits her vocal range well. Should it have been much higher? Or lower?

 

He said something like 'gee she"s so pretty.' (From memory; can"t listen again right now.)

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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Applies to cover bands:

 

 

[*]guitar player running sound from stage

 

Real MC for the win.

Muzikteechur is Lonnie, in Kittery, Maine.

 

HS music teacher: Concert Band, Marching Band, Jazz Band, Chorus, Music Theory, AP Music Theory, History of Rock, Musical Theatre, Piano, Guitar, Drama.

 

 

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The first friend you make is the sound guy.

 

Honestly, for younger folks scrolling through this forum, this is probably the most important piece of advice you can get.

 

Thanks drawback: that certainly does explain it.

 

For the rest, I don't know: IME back before I became a hermit and stopped playing penny ante jobs for what amounted to zero cash profit, 99% of the time the soundguys/gals were thrilled to test out their chops mixing keys in stereo (they seemed to, maybe half or most of the time insist on doing FOH keys in stereo â I have no idea how it sounded, but it seemed like something they enjoyed playing with). Most of the other groups in that tier were primarily guitar groups, so they were psyched to work with the Hammond and acoustic piano, especially when they saw I wasn't scrounging around begging for spare DI boxes.

 

Hey! I'm young....ish. Large portions of my condo could easily pass for a frat house in one of those movies those kids like!

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He said something like 'gee she"s so pretty.' (From memory; can"t listen again right now.)
You're right. It's something like, "Gee but she's pretty." He's not calling the key. :whistle:

 

These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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Wikipedia says...

 

Wow, there is so much interesting stuff to see (or at least think you see) in that video once you know the above. That piano entrance now seems clearly to include a little hunting expedition for the right key, and the backing vox take a second to settle in, and all those looks Ronstadt shoots over to her right toward Berry now seem to have way more behind them than just musical eye contact.

I had no idea about this and found it fascinating too.

 

What is even more interesting to me is the power of a professional performance, no matter what the challenges. Reading the comments on the YouTube video, the commenters are clearly oblivious to this backstory and are blown away by the performance. No-one in the 100 or so comments I read had picked up any hint of dissent or angst between Ronstadt and the other performers. And we know how YouTube commenters love to create a bit of controversy if they can. If Ronstadt was as annoyed as the anecdote suggests she was, credit to her for keeping this completely below the radar.

 

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Linda runs a tight ship apparently.

 

Some years ago, she did a show at the Chicago Theater. At some point during the performance, she spotted someone in the audience stifling a yawn, so she called him out between songs. "That guy over there... He's yawning!". But then, after the show there is a hallway or a bunch of doors behind the stage (they showed us when we toured the place) where the artists sign their names or write well-wishes to the fans. Linda wrote "Wake Up Chicago!!".

 

 

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4) Not prepared for practice/doing "your own version" of it when it's obvious that you just didn't take the time to learn it
This is the one that causes acid to pour into my stomach. In just about any given week, I have a number of other things I could re-prioritize if I know someone won't be able to learn their parts, not to mention the additional time wasted at rehearsal floundering through songs. I get that life circumstances can intervene and take away from personal practice time, but I have low tolerance when this is not communicated to the rest of the band within a reasonable period before rehearsal. I mean, how long does it take to fire off a text to let everyone know? An alternate/contingency plan can then be developed. Otherwise, it smacks of "my time is more important than your time" and is just pain inconsiderate/disrespectful.

I once auditioned for, and spent a few months in, a local band that toured regionally -- small potatoes, small paycheck, but "famous" by local-scene-original-band standards. [wink] At the time, it was a huge jump up for me from the semi-obscurity (again, this is by "local band" standards) I'd been playing in. It was like the coolest girl in school asked me to prom, and I remember being kind of shocked that I was the one who got the gig.

 

Anyway, flash forward a few years, and I hadn't been in that band for some time. I was doing a recording session with that band's drummer, and I asked who else had auditioned. Turned out there was only one other guy, and as the drummer put it, "it was an easy decision because you learned the songs."

 

"Well, yeah," I said, "it was an audition. You told me what songs you wanted me to learn ahead of time. Isn't that what you do?"

 

Apparently the other guy came in and "put his own spin" on the keyboard parts, to which the drummer said "yeah, dude, you didn't put your own spin on anything, you just didn't learn 'em." It wasn't exactly a lesson for me, but a reinforcement that sometimes hard work is, in fact, noticed and appreciated!

Samuel B. Lupowitz

Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.

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A band is such a fragile thing. There are so many indicators that could be red flags. I think it's hugely important to look for a strong chemistry between people, because chemistry tends not to get better, and most of the time gets worse. Disagreements don't get resolved. Grudges take on a life of their own. Small gripes fester into gaping puss-oozing wounds. Hatchets remain unburied and in moments of desperation will be used in attempted amputations. Try to have sidebar conversations with the members, it's usually not hard to get people to open up about what bugs them.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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Yes indeed - the #1 trait I look for in a band is chemistry. How well the members get along makes the performance more enjoyable. Common interest in genres and musical competence comes after that.

That!!! So true...

Gear: Yamaha MODX8, Mojo 61, NS2 73, C. Bechstein baby grand.

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At this point in my life I will take a person who is "easy to work with and has basic competence" over "fantastic chops but poor people skills" any day of the week.

Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12

Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell

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Like most folks here, I've landed in a bunch of situations where my first instinct is to run like hell. And I have run, oh so many times.

 

At first meet-and-greet, lead singer spaced out on pills. Guitar hero breaking windows with volume. Cave man drummer doing physical therapy with his drums. Bass player doing the rasta thing proud by smoking into a coma. Alcoholic rages. Etc. They are all looking for magic keyboard person to fix their ills.

 

For some reason, I end up kissing a lot of frogs along the way. Many first contacts (until I learned to do them better) were like 30 minute speed dates. I've gotten better at qualifying folks online. Here's me and my stuff, show me you and your stuff.

 

So when I show up, I sort of know what I'm getting into.

 

Maybe I'm a masochist, but if there's stuff I like, I try to look a bit deeper. Is there native talent? Some potential? Yes, there are usually issues.

 

Is this a fixable band? Is it worth fixing? Do the members want to sound better and have more fun, or are they just lost in their weird obsessive world? Is there a band member who is engaged with marketing the band and getting gigs?

 

I am now on my third band rehab project -- and, like flipping houses, I've found it somewhat rewarding. You create value. They get a whole lot better, they bring game to gigs, and they can market themselves. Mission Accomplished. Got my fourth one on a radar screen. No ego thing here. just doing what I like to do.

 

Not every house is a flip, nor is every band worth the investment.

 

Not everyone's cup of tea, to be sure.

Want to make your band better?  Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band"

 

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Also: If there's a girl in the band who is single, it's DEATH for anyone in the band to become romantically involved w/her....

 

It's like Dad used to say about putting up barbed wire fence, "No matter how careful you are, somebody's gonna get hurt."

Live: Yamaha S70XS (#1); Roland Jupiter-80; Mackie 1202VLZ4: IEMs or Traynor K4

Home: Hammond SK Pro 73; Moog Minimoog Voyager Electric Blue; Yamaha S70XS (#2); Wurlitzer 200A

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4) Not prepared for practice/doing "your own version" of it when it's obvious that you just didn't take the time to learn it
This is the one that causes acid to pour into my stomach. In just about any given week, I have a number of other things I could re-prioritize if I know someone won't be able to learn their parts, not to mention the additional time wasted at rehearsal floundering through songs. I get that life circumstances can intervene and take away from personal practice time, but I have low tolerance when this is not communicated to the rest of the band within a reasonable period before rehearsal. I mean, how long does it take to fire off a text to let everyone know? An alternate/contingency plan can then be developed. Otherwise, it smacks of "my time is more important than your time" and is just plain inconsiderate/disrespectful.

 

This happened to a friend of mine: he had a crappy week of work and wasn't able to do his homework before rehearsal. After he got there and stumbled around for awhile, totally unprepared, one of his bandmates said, "Just so we're clear, you do not have permission to waste my time like this ever again."

Live: Yamaha S70XS (#1); Roland Jupiter-80; Mackie 1202VLZ4: IEMs or Traynor K4

Home: Hammond SK Pro 73; Moog Minimoog Voyager Electric Blue; Yamaha S70XS (#2); Wurlitzer 200A

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A band is such a fragile thing. There are so many indicators that could be red flags. I think it's hugely important to look for a strong chemistry between people, because chemistry tends not to get better, and most of the time gets worse. Disagreements don't get resolved. Grudges take on a life of their own. Small gripes fester into gaping puss-oozing wounds. Hatchets remain unburied and in moments of desperation will be used in attempted amputations. Try to have sidebar conversations with the members, it's usually not hard to get people to open up about what bugs them.

 

 

We have chemistry, that's not the problem but is a huge detriment as people then think they can get involved or tell you about their problems as they wish. I have two girls in the band. It's great as women and guys both like it and it's a unique situation. It also requires different techniques to handle things that come up. They can be lazy about things. Bands can work, but as someone says it's fragile. I have had two membership changes in 8 years, so far so good. The reason for grudges is poor communication. I know 4 or 5 guys in town that don't get a long anymore because of passive-aggressive things that happened 30 years ago. I see a lot of bands around town and once I know the members I take inventory on them. I do that in case someday I have to work with them. Other musician friends of mine will forewarn me of things also.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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A band is such a fragile thing. There are so many indicators that could be red flags. I think it's hugely important to look for a strong chemistry between people, because chemistry tends not to get better, and most of the time gets worse. Disagreements don't get resolved. Grudges take on a life of their own. Small gripes fester into gaping puss-oozing wounds. Hatchets remain unburied and in moments of desperation will be used in attempted amputations. Try to have sidebar conversations with the members, it's usually not hard to get people to open up about what bugs them.

 

 

We have chemistry, that's not the problem but is a huge detriment as people then think they can get involved or tell you about their problems as they wish. I have two girls in the band. It's great as women and guys both like it and it's a unique situation. It also requires different techniques to handle things that come up. They can be lazy about things. Bands can work but as someone says it's fragile. I have had two membership changes in 8 years, so far so good. The reason for grudges is poor communication. I know 4 or 5 guys that don't get a long because of passive-aggressive things that happened 30 years ago around here. I can see any band and once I know the members I can usually pinpoint the problems. Friends of mine will point it out to me but Usually I can tell.

 

Our area has a grapevine. If a musician has bad people or teamwork skills, word gets around.

 

The band I am playing in now has been around since 1992 when the female lead singer founded it, and the band has a big draw. A lot of musicians want to play in that band. Having done this for so long, she can quickly feel during an audition when something is not right.

 

I landed the keyboard chair in that band through a mutual musician friend because of my (in)famy on that grapevine :laugh:

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I am now on my third band rehab project -- and, like flipping houses, I've found it somewhat rewarding. You create value. They get a whole lot better, they bring game to gigs

 

Well, maybe right now, but once you whip'em into Mustang Sally shape no doubt they'll be bringing in some cash. How much venison can one eat?

____________________________________
Rod

Here for the gear.

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Kudos to all you guys for pulling it through. After relocating to an entirely different region (and raising kids), I find most bands offer several of these flags. Which is fine; I still had occasional gigs, and sometimes they even paid. All flags have exceptions, I suppose.

 

That being said, I've read all the posts here (and on the previous thread for the same topic, four months ago) and it's been instructive. Not that I hadn't already come to many of the same conclusions, but because I've been in SO MANY of the situations described, even though I'm not even a regular gigger. I've immediately dropped projects (even of my own starting) for some of these reasons, then wondered if I wasn't being too picky. Some deal-breakers:

 

- drummer hitting drum next to my ear as I'm leaning over to make pedal/amp adjustment. Asked him not to do that. He did it again, thinking it was funny.

- Guitarist plays standing behind his amp, so he can "hear the room mix". The amp is pointed at me. I moved my setup next session; he rotated his amp so it still pointed at me.

- Lead singer switches to my note when I come in on vocal harmony.

- Guitarist noodles at full volume during rehearsal, preventing anybody talking.

- Bandleader/drummer plays only max volume -- except one Eagles tune -- in a small rehearsal room. On that tune alone, I can clearly hear the vocals. Then it's back to business.

- Audition for trio that wanted to expand; the rehearsal room had no actual space for me, so I had to set up in the hall outside.

- Band members talk about what they'll do when they make it big, while smoking pot before rehearsal begins.

 

 

It's not the gear, it's the player ... but hey, look -- new gear!

 

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I hate to pull the "old guy" card, but it works here, as follows.

 

In my local retiree-centric market, you tend to play with folks who don't have a day job, and are past much of the drama of career, raising a family, keeping their marriage healthy, etc. They are sort of who they are at face value, and reasonably well sorted out. As a result, it doesn't take a lot of effort to figure out what the deal is.

 

There is zero drugs or alcohol in any of my three bands. Well, maybe some medicinal cannabis on occasion if the arthritis is flaring up, or they're working through chemo. But no one is wasted. Until after the gig, that is :) What you have to watch for is people who are "aging out", e.g. starting to slowly lose their faculties as a result of the inevitable. Not pretty. And we all hope to avoid it, but ...

 

Some quick personal math? I'm turning 60 soon. I have observed locally that once people get into their mid 70s, the live performance thing seems to be pretty difficult for them, despite their best efforts. So, what, 75 as an outside limit? Yes, there are counter-examples, just going by the population I happen to know. That would put me midway through my late bloomer musical career, as I got serious about playing live about 15 years ago. And boy did I suck back when.

 

May I continue to improve as rapidly as I have in the past ...

 

The great thing is that the female distraction thing is almost non-existent in this cadre. It's sort of liberating. For example, I tend to hang with this 59-year-old single woman in my bands who can sing her brains out, and is certainly not hard on the eyes. I love doing music with her, as she's native talent. She considers me her go-to keys dude, and I'm good with that. She runs a successful real estate brokerage business, so very independent. Everyone treats her like a cool sister, so zero drama. Besides, most of the guys are happily married and prefer to stay that way.

 

Myself included, thank you.

 

Musically speaking, you show up to a new gig, and all the cards are instantly on the table -- even if they're trying to market themselves to you. It doesn't take more than a few tunes to figure out what's going on. More often than not, I pass. But I do make the effort. Decent keys dudes are rare around here.

 

The things I care about: Do you all have some reasonable talent? Are you willing to work hard to sound better? Is there someone who gets gigs and manages band business, as that's not my thing? I'm sort of open minded on the material, really. Whatever sells. I'm not proud that way. Besides, who would want to listen to a bunch of my fav 70's prog rock pieces? Not a bunch of folks at a retiree club on a Saturday night.

 

Anyway, my "red flag" list is now probably different than most, as a result. When I show up to bands with younger folks, all of the commentary -- and more -- is applicable.

Want to make your band better?  Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band"

 

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Kudos to all you guys for pulling it through. After relocating to an entirely different region (and raising kids), I find most bands offer several of these flags. Which is fine; I still had occasional gigs, and sometimes they even paid. All flags have exceptions, I suppose.

 

That being said, I've read all the posts here (and on the previous thread for the same topic, four months ago) and it's been instructive. Not that I hadn't already come to many of the same conclusions, but because I've been in SO MANY of the situations described, even though I'm not even a regular gigger. I've immediately dropped projects (even of my own starting) for some of these reasons, then wondered if I wasn't being too picky. Some deal-breakers:

 

- drummer hitting drum next to my ear as I'm leaning over to make pedal/amp adjustment. Asked him not to do that. He did it again, thinking it was funny.

- Guitarist plays standing behind his amp, so he can "hear the room mix". The amp is pointed at me. I moved my setup next session; he rotated his amp so it still pointed at me.

- Lead singer switches to my note when I come in on vocal harmony.

- Guitarist noodles at full volume during rehearsal, preventing anybody talking.

- Bandleader/drummer plays only max volume -- except one Eagles tune -- in a small rehearsal room. On that tune alone, I can clearly hear the vocals. Then it's back to business.

- Audition for trio that wanted to expand; the rehearsal room had no actual space for me, so I had to set up in the hall outside.

- Band members talk about what they'll do when they make it big, while smoking pot before rehearsal begins.

 

 

 

That's kid shit who do you play with? How old are these guys?

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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My big red flag is someone who has too many red flags! :D

 

*runs away*

 

As far as age, unfortunately some of the most childish, immature musicians I have encountered have been the oldest ones....the ones set in their ways because they used to be someone, and don't want to change. Which is ludicrous to begin with when we are talking about part-time weekend warrior musicians (my level).

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As far as age, unfortunately some of the most childish, immature musicians I have encountered have been the oldest ones....the ones set in their ways because they used to be someone, and don't want to change. Which is ludicrous to begin with when we are talking about part-time weekend warrior musicians (my level).

Been there!

 

Samuel B. Lupowitz

Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.

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