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Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #2995713 06/25/19 01:26 AM
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Cakewalk by Bandlab is giving me fits. Crashes a couple of times a week. And another problem - at times, working on a project with multiple VST instruments going, all the VST instruments will become unresponsive. It's like they all just freeze up - if I bring up the instrument interface, even the virtual keyboard at the bottom of the interface will not work - the virtual keys won't even virtually press. The only way to salvage the tracks with VST instruments is to launch another instance of each instrument in a new track and copy/paste the MIDI from the frozen instance into the new one. Very tedious....I can easily have 7-10 VST instruments on any given project.

I've seen others bring this up in the user forum, with no solutions on offer.

So....I think I'll pick up Live 10 for $99. My son uses it, so we can compare notes and help each other. I'll probably compose and track on Live, then port the audio files only back over to Cakewalk for mixing. The effects VSTs have no issues on Cakewalk - just the instruments. And I'm totally addicted to Cakewalk's Pro Channel for one thing. And just used to it since I've been using Cakewalk since before it even did audio.

Maybe I'll eventually leave Cakewalk for something like Reaper. But one new DAW at a time....

nat

Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Nowarezman] #2995725 06/25/19 03:03 AM
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Anderton Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Nowarezman
So....I think I'll pick up Live 10 for $99. My son uses it, so we can compare notes and help each other. I'll probably compose and track on Live, then port the audio files only back over to Cakewalk for mixing. The effects VSTs have no issues on Cakewalk - just the instruments. And I'm totally addicted to Cakewalk's Pro Channel for one thing. And just used to it since I've been using Cakewalk since before it even did audio.


Why not just ReWire Live into Cakewalk? Then you don't have to port anything...create in Reason while you mix in Cakewalk smile

Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #2995728 06/25/19 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Anderton
Originally Posted by Nowarezman
So....I think I'll pick up Live 10 for $99. My son uses it, so we can compare notes and help each other. I'll probably compose and track on Live, then port the audio files only back over to Cakewalk for mixing. The effects VSTs have no issues on Cakewalk - just the instruments. And I'm totally addicted to Cakewalk's Pro Channel for one thing. And just used to it since I've been using Cakewalk since before it even did audio.


Why not just ReWire Live into Cakewalk? Then you don't have to port anything...create in Reason while you mix in Cakewalk smile


Thanks for the tip - ReWire/Reason is something I've never looked into.

nat

Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #2995730 06/25/19 03:44 AM
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This wouldn't involve Reason, you'd just open Cakewalk first, then Live, and insert Live as a ReWire instrument within Cakewalk. It's really simple once you get past the relatively benign learning curve...it seems like it would HAVE to be more difficult than this, but it isn't smile

I wrote an article for Harmony Central about using ReWire, with Sonar serving as the example host. I think you'll find it helpful. Cakewalk has quite a good ReWire implementation, which is a good thing for your application.

Last edited by Anderton; 06/25/19 03:45 AM.
Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: RudyS] #2995788 06/25/19 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by RudyS


Iím surprised there are not many ableton users here. Never worked with it, but that would be the one if I would switch, I think.


I've always wanted to like Live but I've always seemed to run into a snag with it. Since I never did much with it I've stalled out at ver. 8 but I've had it going back a couple versions before that. There was a point when I had a little time while being keyboardist in the busy band I was in that I attempted to switch over to using Live from DP but I ran into a setup problem the details of which I don't recall. Time, as always, became tight again and I defaulted back to DP which does all I need and so much more. Later when I got the gig as keyboardist for a rock show with the symphony orchestra I needed some multi-sampling. Again I thought I'd give Live a shot but alas, to get the functionality I needed I would have had to upgrade my standard version. I already had Reason which would do what I needed so I just went with that!

Last edited by ggm1960; 06/25/19 03:04 PM.
Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #2998506 07/14/19 07:31 AM
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Studio One

I recorded this album with it a couple of years ago. Haven't touched it since. Until yesterday, that is. For some reason I got the urge to re-acquaint myself with it. To which end I recorded bass and drums for one of my songs, just to see if I could remember how to do it

I used the built-in instruments (Impact and Presence) and auditioned various bass sounds until I encountered something called Taurus. Waaw, it sounds amazing coupled with the heavy drums I chose! Like a cross between me and Tubeway Army

Might just take my laptop to a rehearsal room, stick it through the PA, and sing along to it. Might be worth buying (or renting) a guitar and amp, too idea


The past is gone. I'm sure it can take care of itself now.

Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: BMD] #2998543 07/14/19 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BMD
Studio One

I recorded this album with it a couple of years ago. Haven't touched it since. Until yesterday, that is. For some reason I got the urge to re-acquaint myself with it. To which end I recorded bass and drums for one of my songs, just to see if I could remember how to do it

I used the built-in instruments (Impact and Presence) and auditioned various bass sounds until I encountered something called Taurus. Waaw, it sounds amazing coupled with the heavy drums I chose! Like a cross between me and Tubeway Army


I'll have to give Taurus a try!

Quote
Might just take my laptop to a rehearsal room, stick it through the PA, and sing along to it. Might be worth buying (or renting) a guitar and amp, too idea


What? You don't have a guitar and amp?!?

Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #2998563 07/14/19 08:38 PM
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It's actually called 'Big Taurus'

I got rid of all my gear a while ago. The only thing I kept was my bass guitar. No idea why. I never use it. And my laptop. I don't consider that 'gear', as such


The past is gone. I'm sure it can take care of itself now.

Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #2998610 07/15/19 07:03 AM
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I went from Notator on the Atari 1040ST to Studio Vision to Digital Performer to Pro Tools.

Now I have Pro Tools for compatibility reasons only. My main DAWs are Reason and Live (why do people keep calling it Ableton?). I use Reason because of the tremendously elegant workflow (despite the skeuomorphic overkill) and sheer number of instruments...I even liked that it was a closed system. I use Live for composition when I'm writing in a non-linear fashion or, of course, when trying to be compatible with someone else using Live.


"For instance" is not proof.
Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #2998763 07/16/19 06:32 AM
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Do you ever ReWire Reason into Live so you can take advantage of those instruments?

Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #2998892 07/17/19 12:22 AM
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I was originally an Opcode Vision (then Studio Vision) user from getting my first computer in 1989 until Opcode was shut down in 1999. Then I made the jump to Logic, and have been there since. I know Pro Tools well enough to run a session in it, since most of the studios I freelance at use it, but I'm really most comfortable working in Logic.


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Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #2999145 07/18/19 03:59 PM
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I went all-in on Live a couple years ago, including the Push (and now the Push 2). Incredible tool once you get into it.

For a linear DAW I still fall back to Reaper. I've tried others but really haven't found much reason to go with something else. Studio One is pretty cool but since I do more creative work in Live I don't have much need for all the bells & whistles, and the full version is $$$.

Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #2999229 07/19/19 02:59 AM
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I wrote machine code on a PDP11 in 1983 to control a Buchla 100 and an ARP 2500. I wish I could say I was still using that system, if only to see folks' expressions. smile

Since then, I've used Music-X and Bars&Pipes on an Amiga 500, Creator on an Atari 1040ST, Cakewalk since version 2 or so on a PC, Opcode Vision and Vision DSP (still my Lost Lenore) on a Mac, and -- after becoming a DAW reviewer for a pro audio magazine -- dabbled in Metro, Peak/Deck, Logic, Studio One, Reaper, Reason/Record (does that date me?), Tracktion/Waveform, Bitwig Studio, Numerology, Lumit... jack of all trades and master of very few, because I kept having to shift focus. Now that I'm not doing that any more, I will try to choose a single linear sequencer/recorder to get really good at, with my top candidates being Studio One, Bitwig, and Reaper as an outside contender.

All that said, the vast majority of my music making these days is live, direct to stereo, whether gigging out or doing live improvs on the radio, and most of my recent albums haven't even been multitracked. I play live, cut out the egregious errors, and release what's left, with imperfections left in so there's a sense of humanity in the music, and that formula's worked for me for almost 20 years now. To do that, for the past 15ish years I have relied heavily on Ableton Live. I've owned it since version 1.5, used it steadily since version 3, used it exclusively on stage since version 5, and most of my studio today is based around it.

Is it perfect? Hell no. The tabbed interface in a single window can be downright maddening, and the Arrangement View has never made any real sense to me. Its steadfast refusal to understand polyphonic aftertouch or MPE is making me at least consider a move elsewhere, but after so many years, it's nearly instinctive for me, and I'm still learning more about it every time I boot it up. And as Craig mentioned, it's solid as a tank and runs well on even old hardware.

Besides, Live uses Ableton Link, the most important advancement in digital music communication since the invention of MIDI. The first non-Ableton DAW that adds proper Link support will probably be the one I go with, if it has the other things I need it to do (hence my putting Bitwig on equal footing with Studio One at the moment)...


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Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #2999245 07/19/19 05:47 AM
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I've never really considered Ableton Live as a DAW, I consider it more a musical instrument disguised as software. I am very much into the right tool for the right job, and I would not use anything other than Ableton Live for live performance. In the studio, when Studio One switched over to version 4, I felt it had such compelling features for songwriting that it was worth switching.

When I talk with many people about using more than one DAW, often the reaction is "but I really don't want to have to learn another program." I remind them that because they've been using a DAW, they know how to do 90% of what a DAW does. All they really have to learn are the differences. I don't find it that difficult to switch among DAWs, but the caveat is that you need to use them consistently.

Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #2999252 07/19/19 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Anderton
When I talk with many people about using more than one DAW, often the reaction is "but I really don't want to have to learn another program." I remind them that because they've been using a DAW, they know how to do 90% of what a DAW does. All they really have to learn are the differences. I don't find it that difficult to switch among DAWs, but the caveat is that you need to use them consistently.

I think some people still find computers to be scary. I've heard people say similar things about word-processing programs, spreadsheets, etc. I don't know if it's true for "the kids" (aka millennials), but for older generations I've seen it a bit.


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Joe Muscara] #2999630 07/21/19 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Muscara
I think some people still find computers to be scary.


That's because they are! Software companies beat themselves up that they don't make it easier for beginners, but I tell them the main user-hostile element is the computer, more than the software.

When I was consulting for Sony years ago, I was asked if I could write up a simple process for getting files from Acid on to one of their MP3 players. "It should only take you about three steps, you should be able to knock it off in an afternoon."

I turned in a document with 23 steps, and they were NOT happy. "We told you to keep it simple!" I asked which steps could be removed, and said I'd remove them. None of the steps could be removed, and most of them dealt with things you had to do in Windows (like how to navigate to where you wanted to export the file).

At NAMM, I was talking to a music store owner who bemoaned the fact that people would buy interfaces from him, but they'd sit in the closet because people found computers too daunting. TASCAM tried to solve the learning hump with their Track Factory, which had a Windows computer pre-configured for music, and dedicated to only that task, with SONAR pre-loaded on it. Unfortunately, this was just before Cakewalk went under, so we'll never know whether the concept was valid or not.

Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #2999697 07/22/19 09:46 AM
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Good points, Craig. But what I find funny or interesting is that people are afraid of the things, as if their computer is connected to NORAD and might blow up the planet if they do something wrong.

I get it though. This is why iOS is so popular. If an app can do something, it's there, not behind a ton of menus or submenus or whatever. And because each app is generally isolated, there's no risk you'll brick your device by trying one app and poking around in it. What a concept!


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Joe Muscara] #2999700 07/22/19 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe Muscara
Good points, Craig. But what I find funny or interesting is that people are afraid of the things, as if their computer is connected to NORAD and might blow up the planet if they do something wrong.!


To someone who depends on a computer to make their music better than it really is, losing a track can be, to them, a similar catastrophe.

And some people, when using a computer with an application like Twitter, practically CAN blow up the planet.

Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Joe Muscara] #2999751 07/22/19 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Muscara

I think some people still find computers to be scary.


And/or extremely time consuming. I've been away from my older MBP/Presonus SL1642/Digital Performer and other software/plugin recording system for a couple years and recently tried to rekindle that relationship. There's no point in even starting unless you've got several uninterrupted hours to get things updated, renew leases, restore/find old passwords let alone try to remember how the hardware and software operates!

I have newer gear that I could/should be using but I'd been clinging onto that setup because it was the last 17" MBP and had the expresscard slot for the UAD Solo Laptop thingie.

Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #2999944 07/23/19 04:32 PM
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Cubase for many many years. Serves my purpose so I never really had a reason to change.


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Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Greg Mein] #2999948 07/23/19 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ggm1960
Originally Posted by Joe Muscara

I think some people still find computers to be scary.


And/or extremely time consuming. I've been away from my older MBP/Presonus SL1642/Digital Performer and other software/plugin recording system for a couple years and recently tried to rekindle that relationship. There's no point in even starting unless you've got several uninterrupted hours to get things updated, renew leases, restore/find old passwords let alone try to remember how the hardware and software operates!

I have newer gear that I could/should be using but I'd been clinging onto that setup because it was the last 17" MBP and had the expresscard slot for the UAD Solo Laptop thingie.


Apparently TASCAM's Model 24 is selling very well, better than expected. That might be a statement of its own.

Last edited by Anderton; 07/23/19 05:13 PM.
Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #3001689 08/03/19 07:32 PM
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Finally I'm going to bail on Cakewalk. Jeez, I was a Cakewalk user when it was MIDI-only....but I'm just too tired of crashing over and over and over.

This is not an entirely rational decision - it's rather like deciding you've finally had enough in a 25-year long relationship. All I can see is for the future is all I've seen in the past over and over.

My latest miseries are just more of the same - all of a sudden, I crash in a project that I've been working on crash-free for weeks. I go through the motions - freeze the VSTs one by one, eventually get running again until WHAM out of nowhere - do the whole bit over again.

Problems with Sonar/Cakewalk have persisted computer to computer, OS to OS, year to year, release to release. I love the program or I wouldn't have stayed with it so long. But I can't remember the last time I worked on a project start to finish without a whole series of crashes.

I think it's a geriatric dinosaur of a program after all these decades of development. It needs re-writing from the ground up. Too many patches on patches on patches keeping old inefficient routines going. Oh, it's full of great stuff, no question. But I'm cooking hard in my music kitchen with serious time limitations and I just can't have my stove blowing up at these frequent intervals.

So I downloaded Reaper. I can't believe the code is so tiny! Microscopic! Up and running in 30. Cakewalk, in the bin in the alley I plan to never revisit.

nat

Last edited by Nowarezman; 08/03/19 07:33 PM.
Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #3001721 08/04/19 03:39 AM
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I have a ton of older projects in Cakewalk, and lately I've been re-visiting them. I am finding that Cakewalk by BandLab is more stable than Sonar was, however, I'm holding off on the July update until there's an all-clear.

I've been using Studio One's Song page for new projects for over a year, and finding it very sleek (I've been using the Project page for mastering since version 1.0, so it's not like I'm new to the program). It's not crash-proof, but so far that has involved plug-ins. For example, sometimes Helix Native crashes it, sometimes not. I keep trying to figure out what puts it in the "sometimes not" column. It seems (no conclusions yet) that inserting it on a track that already includes audio is the solution. But the issue also seems graphics card-related, because the crash is preceded by a failure to draw the GUI.

The more closed the ecosystem, the more stable the DAW. I think this is why Reason is stable, and also, Ableton Live (although that seems to be "closed" because of user preference, not technical limitations). The more a program tries to do - particularly under Windows - the greater the risk.

Re: DAW Roll Call [Re: Anderton] #3001764 08/04/19 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Anderton

The more closed the ecosystem, the more stable the DAW. I think this is why Reason is stable, and also, Ableton Live (although that seems to be "closed" because of user preference, not technical limitations). The more a program tries to do - particularly under Windows - the greater the risk.


So very true - that closed vs. open thing is the old Apple vs. PC paradigm at least from back in the day. I've always preferred the open approach to a certain point...don't mind spending saturday afternoon under the hood. I read electronics textbooks, I build my PCs, I program my synths, I actually read manuals, and I find the etymologies of words endlessly interesting. My geekness is apparent to all who know me for better or worse.

But the computer world is gradually moving away from this old-school geekistic approach. Not that there are not a lot of people who don't want to be deep into the details of some pursuit or other - but, for example, an acoustic guitar player would typically rather deep dive into chords and modes and right-hand technique rather than adjusting truss rods, filing frets, and fixing cracked tops. So with computers - people want tools that get stuff done. No problem if the tools are complex or even fiddly, but it's a problem if they are simply breaking down and halting production all the time. A bug here and there is too be expected. But there's a point...

I almost opted for Ableton Live, but it's a bit too pricey for the regular package. I might DL the $99 version with the 16-track limit just to play with it and see what makes it squeek and spin.

So far, Reaper is impressive. And so very tweakable! And it could just be my imagination, but I could almost say it sounds better.



nat






Last edited by Nowarezman; 08/04/19 08:11 PM.
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