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Re: Best board for horn sections?
cphollis #2999137 07/18/19 03:28 PM
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Convincing brass sections - getting the sound is easy, getting the expression is HARD. Especially solo sax, getting that expression from a keyboard requires PW, aftertouch routed to modulation, a controller routed to filter cutoff, and a lot of practice. I've dialed up some pretty good solo brass on my Voyager.

My Kurzweil 1000HX has a wide variety of brass instruments with great sound quality. I have some songs here. I do miss an onboard filter though, and a good digital reverb can bring them to life. Of all the analog polysynths in my arsenal, the one I reach for brass sounds is my Alesis Andromeda. Oberheim OBX does good brass sounds but not saxophones.

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Re: Best board for horn sections?
cphollis #2999144 07/18/19 03:53 PM
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Yeah, I find it hard to get convincing brass sounds on FM too, but saxophones I can get. FM is better at saxophone sounds than analog. I’ve tried the Nord brass and I was pretty convinced it wouldn’t work in a Motown cover band. That’d be where Motif comes in. I always thought Motif had good brass sounds. I have an MX49, it may not have all the sample layers, but it works great. You usually have to layer brass though, especially in different octaves. I watched a video of a Motown cover band with no horn section and their keyboardist was using of all stuff, a K2000 and Korg M50. They sounded good.

Last edited by Music Bird; 07/18/19 03:54 PM.

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Re: Best board for horn sections?
cphollis #2999150 07/18/19 04:23 PM
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Here’s some bands with keyboard horns
Triton: https://youtu.be/le44kvidlxk
2 keyboards, 1 might be a higher end Yamaha PSR or Motif and the other is a digital piano: https://youtu.be/5VRey6DkJ-k
Same band is good for that, and they have a sax player to boot so it blends in well
https://youtu.be/SUW_h-lMFe0
https://youtu.be/jVNyCOhMOSU
Be very aware though that the Stevie Wonder medley has some keyboard harmonica too, so if that isn’t your thing, skip it. But it sounds good!


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Re: Best board for horn sections?
cphollis #2999153 07/18/19 04:37 PM
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Thanks, folks -- this is extremely helpful!!!


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Re: Best board for horn sections?
cphollis #2999185 07/18/19 09:19 PM
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So Chuck, it looks like anything except Nord. And maybe avoid Waldorf...

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Re: Best board for horn sections?
cphollis #2999189 07/18/19 09:53 PM
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I don't agree with the idea of avoiding brass section sounds. While you can get away with using organ or piano to cover some parts, it's fun, for me at least to use a brass section sound every now and again. As an example, here is a short video (very low quality) of me playing my DMC-122/Gemini and switching from organ, electric piano and brass.

Last edited by DaveMcM; 07/18/19 09:54 PM.

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Re: Best board for horn sections?
DaveMcM #2999200 07/18/19 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveMcM
I don't agree with the idea of avoiding brass section sounds. While you can get away with using organ or piano to cover some parts, it's fun, for me at least to use a brass section sound every now and again. As an example, here is a short video (very low quality) of me playing my DMC-122/Gemini and switching from organ, electric piano and brass.

As I mentioned in an earlier post you should take a serious look at the Gemini module.


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Re: Best board for horn sections?
cphollis #2999271 07/19/19 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cphollis
Not interested in soft instruments at this time. A hardware module could work though.


You have some good advice here. Regardless of the tools you use, here are some basic articulations you might wonder about. I've added comments on whether I would find the articulation useful for the situation you describe. A general guideline would be to keep things simple where possible. Good luck.

Swells - I think they are essential, either pre-programmed or (preferably) controlled with a pedal/breath controller
Falls - Essential, either velocity switched or (preferably) switched from a button/pedal,. (Avoid keyboard glissando. It sounds lame on brass sounds) helpful to have both longer and shorter falls.
Legato Samples - generally not needed, nice for orchestrated arrangements/ballads
Shakes - generally not needed, nice for TOP/Chicago style songs
Doits - generally not needed, nice for TOP/Chicago style songs

Re: Best board for horn sections?
Tusker #2999274 07/19/19 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Tusker
Swells - I think they are essential, either pre-programmed or (preferably) controlled with a pedal/breath controller
Falls - Essential, either velocity switched or (preferably) switched from a button/pedal,. (Avoid keyboard glissando. It sounds lame on brass sounds) helpful to have both longer and shorter falls.
Legato Samples - generally not needed, nice for orchestrated arrangements/ballads
Shakes - generally not needed, nice for TOP/Chicago style songs
Doits - generally not needed, nice for TOP/Chicago style songs

I think many horn section VIs have at least a few of these. Which keyboards, workstations, or modules have them? Asking out of curiosity only (and not you directly!). I'm not up on the soundsets of the latest boards.

Re: Best board for horn sections?
DaveMcM #2999278 07/19/19 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveMcM
I don't agree with the idea of avoiding brass section sounds. While you can get away with using organ or piano to cover some parts, it's fun, for me at least to use a brass section sound every now and again. As an example, here is a short video (very low quality) of me playing my DMC-122/Gemini and switching from organ, electric piano and brass.

Some sweet funky playing on this one! You sound like me if i was better! So with the DMC 122 you've got 2 manuals so no need to change patch to brass, you've got the upper manual already set to that, right?


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Re: Best board for horn sections?
Randelph #2999318 07/19/19 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Randelph
... So with the DMC 122 you've got 2 manuals so no need to change patch to brass, you've got the upper manual already set to that, right?


The DMC-122 stores 24 Setups. A setup consists of 7 Presets per manual. The Setup I use most of the time has on the upper manual; organ, clav, brass, string ensemble and synth leads. The upper drawbars are assigned to the VB3 for organ control. The lower manual has a couple of acoustic pianos, Rhodes, clav, brass, and synth pad and lead. The lower drawbars are assigned to reverb depth, chorus and stereo trem rate and depth and WahWha on/off.


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Re: Best board for horn sections?
DaveMcM #2999357 07/19/19 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveMcM
I don't agree with the idea of avoiding brass section sounds. While you can get away with using organ or piano to cover some parts, it's fun, for me at least to use a brass section sound every now and again. As an example, here is a short video (very low quality) of me playing my DMC-122/Gemini and switching from organ, electric piano and brass.


That totally works.

Longer explanation: As I listened, I was not thinking about whether the brass sounds were high quality or not. It was just that the concept was well thought out and well executed.

Re: Best board for horn sections?
Music Bird #2999370 07/19/19 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by The Real MC
Convincing brass sections - getting the sound is easy, getting the expression is HARD. Especially solo sax


On behalf of sax players and brass pllayers around the world, sax is not a brass instrument. cop

As you were. wink


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Re: Best board for horn sections?
Sven Golly #2999373 07/19/19 11:05 PM
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Technically it's not a horn either, but I've never heard a Blues or R&B band complimented on their woodwind section. Sounds wimpy.


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Re: Best board for horn sections?
Tusker #2999375 07/19/19 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Tusker
[

You have some good advice here. Regardless of the tools you use, here are some basic articulations you might wonder about. I've added comments on whether I would find the articulation useful for the situation you describe. A general guideline would be to keep things simple where possible. Good luck.

Swells - I think they are essential, either pre-programmed or (preferably) controlled with a pedal/breath controller
Falls - Essential, either velocity switched or (preferably) switched from a button/pedal,. (Avoid keyboard glissando. It sounds lame on brass sounds) helpful to have both longer and shorter falls.
Legato Samples - generally not needed, nice for orchestrated arrangements/ballads
Shakes - generally not needed, nice for TOP/Chicago style songs
Doits - generally not needed, nice for TOP/Chicago style songs


I like your list of the above for horns.

In my non rock original, "Signs of Greatness' I rely on horn swells and a trumpet 'attack '.section. Starting around 15 second mark:

https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994/signs-of-greatnesswav

These are Kronos factory programs and the 'programming' makes the horns more realistic.

Re: Best board for horn sections?
cphollis #2999378 07/19/19 11:35 PM
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Saxes are not brass instruments, but they are horns. Trumpet, trombone, and sax make a nice horn section. They do not make a brass section. In my band, I play keyboard and sax. When I play sax with the harp player, we are the reed section. laugh

Re: Best board for horn sections?
cphollis #2999391 07/20/19 01:59 AM
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Synth brass with the left hand, real trumpet with the right wink

No, seriously. If you add one real brass instrument to a section, it totally makes it. I was a bit out of practice when I started giggling, but I got a decent sounding plastic C-Trumpet. I just play the melody on the trumpet, and do harmony on the keys with my left hand. Since it's light, it doesn't put a lot of strain on my hands, and since it's in C I don't have to transpose on the fly. Now I often grab it for things that I've traditionally only played on keys. Only saying this because most keyboardists I know also play some brass.


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Re: Best board for horn sections?
Sven Golly #2999395 07/20/19 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Sven Golly
On behalf of sax players and brass players around the world, sax is not a brass instrument.

Originally Posted by El Lobo
Saxes are not brass instruments, but they are horns. Trumpet, trombone, and sax make a nice horn section.


On behalf of hornists around the world, nothing mentioned above is a horn. taz
Let me explain:

==============================================================

Horn

[Linked Image]
==============================================================


Sax

[Linked Image]
==============================================================


Saxhorn

[Linked Image]


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Re: Best board for horn sections?
cphollis #2999397 07/20/19 02:44 AM
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roll taz boing w00t wave snax PianoBanana


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Re: Best board for horn sections?
cphollis #2999408 07/20/19 04:31 AM
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The Kronos has very decent horns, especially with expansion pack Funk and Soul Brass EXS16. Since I have an original model, I had to buy it, but since the Kronos 2 and all later models, the sound pack is included.

Here's some sound demos:
https://shop.korg.com/Kronos/EXS-16

The Integra also has good brass. Bonus being a rack.

First time I heard about the GSi Gemini module.
If you click on Preset Lists (lower left), you can audition its brass: http://www.gsidsp.com/
I'd still prefer an Integra over a Gemini.

Re: Best board for horn sections?
EricBarker #2999409 07/20/19 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by EricBarker
Synth brass with the left hand, real trumpet with the right wink

No, seriously. If you add one real brass instrument to a section, it totally makes it. I was a bit out of practice when I started giggling, but I got a decent sounding plastic C-Trumpet. I just play the melody on the trumpet, and do harmony on the keys with my left hand. Since it's light, it doesn't put a lot of strain on my hands, and since it's in C I don't have to transpose on the fly. Now I often grab it for things that I've traditionally only played on keys. Only saying this because most keyboardists I know also play some brass.


Nice, that's pretty ingenious playing 2 instruments at once. Harder to do with a trombone, since you need both hands.

Speaking of brass instruments and giggling:

https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/putting-musical-instruments-in-pants-instagram/

Re: Best board for horn sections?
psionic11 #2999412 07/20/19 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by psionic11
Nice, that's pretty ingenious playing 2 instruments at once. Harder to do with a trombone, since you need both hands.
That's true, I guess it would have to be Trumpet. Though if you play bone or F Horn, you can pick up simple trumpet playing in a day, it's all very translatable.

Speaking of brass in pants, I do have one song where I switch off back to two-handed piano for a short passage, and I temporarily hold the trumpet between my legs... in hindsight, that must look extremely awkward from the floor.


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Re: Best board for horn sections?
Tom Williams #2999417 07/20/19 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Williams
Originally Posted by Sven Golly
On behalf of sax players and brass players around the world, sax is not a brass instrument.

Originally Posted by El Lobo
Saxes are not brass instruments, but they are horns. Trumpet, trombone, and sax make a nice horn section.


On behalf of hornists around the world, nothing mentioned above is a horn. :taz

Words are defined by their common usage. Everybody understands that a trumpet, trombone, and a couple of saxes is a horn section. You can't un-do common usage by a vote of 1.

Re: Best board for horn sections?
El Lobo #2999419 07/20/19 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by El Lobo
Words are defined by their common usage. Everybody understands that a trumpet, trombone, and a couple of saxes is a horn section. You can't un-do common usage by a vote of 1.
Thank you! Linguistic prescriptivism never wins.


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Re: Best board for horn sections?
cphollis #2999430 07/20/19 10:12 AM
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Agree - logic doesn't count. Sax (made of brass) is not a member of the brass family. Flute (made of various metals) is a member of the woodwind family.

Cheers, Mike.


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Re: Best board for horn sections?
El Lobo #2999435 07/20/19 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by El Lobo
Everybody understands that a trumpet, trombone, and a couple of saxes is a horn section.

A point of agreement: Chicago and BS&T notwithstanding, I've always preferred horn band instrumentation to be one trumpet, one 'bone, and two saxes. It provides many more voicing options.
Quote
You can't un-do common usage by a vote of 1.

Awww -- I was hoping that a jumping tasmanian devil would induce everyone to agree with me.


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Re: Best board for horn sections?
Sven Golly #2999438 07/20/19 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sven Golly
Originally Posted by The Real MC
Convincing brass sections - getting the sound is easy, getting the expression is HARD. Especially solo sax


On behalf of sax players and brass pllayers around the world, sax is not a brass instrument. cop




Yes, all sax players and brass players. A very worthy cause. I appreciate them, their skills.

But what about keyboard players who never took lessons ? Underappreciated and a most worthy cause IMO.

And this is a key board forum, correct ? I try not to nit pick wink

I would guess home schooled key board players is not the only worthy cause wink

Re: Best board for horn sections?
Moonglow #2999441 07/20/19 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonglow
OP was kind enough to share his samples with everyone. Haven’t installed it yet, but definitely on my to-do list.



I am interested in these samples. A link to the other forum you mentioned or a contact to the guy who shares them would be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by TomKittel; 07/20/19 01:14 PM.
Re: Best board for horn sections?
cphollis #2999448 07/20/19 01:32 PM
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All the big three plus Kurz have good enough samples. I've built some good big sections on the Kronos but Yamaha does the best articulations for the stuff I play.


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Re: Best board for horn sections?
TomKittel #2999455 07/20/19 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by TomKittel
Originally Posted by Moonglow
OP was kind enough to share his samples with everyone. Haven’t installed it yet, but definitely on my to-do list.



I am interested in these samples. A link to the other forum you mentioned or a contact to the guy who shares them would be greatly appreciated.
Tom, I responded to your PM. Below is the link for anyone else who is interested, it’s a few posts down in the thread.

Click Here

I haven’t got around to installing them in my Kronos. The project will probably will take some time; I haven’t done that sort of thing in a while. Hopefully they will sound as stellar as that video and are reasonably “playable.” If anyone installs them please advise as to any problems encountered!





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