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Should I buy a workstation workhorse or start with software?


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Hi!

 

The condition is⦠I'm a keyboard player of a jazz fusion / alternative rock band and need various kind of sounds (multitimbral synth, vintage keys, piano, acoustic instrument mockeryâ¦). But I also do the electronic music production (probably DnB?) and song arrangement as well.

 

I'm about to graduate from uni, and I've use school-owned studiologic digital piano for years (play with its inbuilt sound and use it as a controller for MainStage as well). I have to pick up my own keyboard now.

 

The gear / software I already have:

  • Roland INTEGRA-7. You may think it's a bit WTF to hold it if I don't own any keyboard controller and don't do much commercial composition:facepalm:. Yeah I unexpectedly got this with an extraordinary low price and I'm not sure if I should sell or keep it. IMO, It's basically a summit of 1990-2000s sounds and sounds good, got many out-of-box sounds for a keyboardist / EDM producer, but if I sell it, I could buy some squishy analog revival gear or software bundles like Ableton Live Suite or NI Komplete.
  • MacBook Pro late 2013, with Logic Pro X and MainStage. Yeah it's currently the center of my workflow but it's getting old, the battery and SSD is dying, and it's performance is somewhat mediocre (2 Cores, 8GB RAM). I'm considering to save money for buying a new one.
  • A Windows desktop. It's currently for gaming:facepalm:, got i7 8700 processor and 32GB of RAM. It could be my future production workhorse but I have to migrate to another DAW, and it's not for gigging.
  • Maschine Mikro Mk2 (comes with some Kontakt libraries and Massive). I received it as a gift.
  • Arturia V-Collection and Serum.

 

So, I got about $1200-1800 to spent on gear. Should I buy:

  • A workstation workhorse (like YAMAHA MODX7), and a budget tiny 32-49 keys MIDI keyboard (like Arturia Keystep) for production / solo / outdoor use

Or

  • Start with all-software workflow, purchase a premium controller like NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk2 and save money for software (like Ableton Live Suite or NI Komplete) and analog gear (like Korg Minilogue xd)?

 

If I choose the MODX7, Pros:

  • Overall good keyboard / synth sound for gigging, cut through the mix and easy to use, focus more on music and technique.
  • Still a somewhat good controller with knobs, sliders and good keybed (no aftertouch, meh).
  • Vintage keyboard and FM synth sounds are still competitive in production, and 8x16 parts ROMpler are interesting and useful in rehearsal / live.

 

Cons:

  • Japanese workstations are freaking overpriced and would eventually be obsolescence (YAMAHA: Yeah we've released MODX2! Worship gigging players and cover bands would definitely purchase a new one:facepalm:).
  • Most onboard sounds are useless in production because Kontakt and software VA / analog synth can do way better.

 

If I choose all-software workflow, Pros:

  • Good VA and sample-based sound libraries, could use same gear for both gigging and production.
  • MainStage and Live Suite are incredibly versatile and powerful.
  • Analog gear like Korg Minilogue xd would not become obsolescence like it's workstation cater-cousins.

 

Cons:

  • Not very handy for gigging, especially on jamming / rehearsal scenario.
  • It's a bit hard on mixing when use plug-ins from different vendor during live.

 

And⦠There may be a third way: purchase a budget digital piano / entry level workstation (like Korg Kross) for casual use / rehearsal and then go to the second way.

 

So what's your suggestion?:facepalm:

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Addendum: I thought I could use INTEGRA-7 on live performance, but it only has 64 studio sets (i.e 16 part multitimbral patch). Worst of all, you have to dive into main menu (or press button for several times) to change the studio set, and there is about 1 second lag⦠Maybe a controller with assignable (program change) foot switch could solve this? Any familiar scenario (rack module for gig)?
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If you do go Software, I'm in love with the Arturia Keylab88. It has a built-in laptop tray, which takes one piece of gear out of the equation (laptop stand/rack). And it's a very similar board to the NI Kontrol88, but about half the price, more physical controllers, and doesn't include all the proprietary bells & whistles on the Kontrol that don't work if you don't use their software (the key lights and screen readout won't work with MainStage, for instance). I've been doing the laptop thing for about 8 years now after I started hating the sound of my outdated hardware workstation. It definitely has its pros & cons, and it was a lot of work to get working smoothly, but I'm glad I did it, and would do it all again.

 

In any case, it's a fairly personal choice. It's definitely a newer workflow, so you won't get as many people who understand it (I've even seen some backlash from people who think that it's not professional). I think it also depends upon how you work. I've used computers heavily throughout my life, and setting up patches on a laptop is much more natural to me than a workstation interface. The way I see it, a modern workstation is just a really expensive computer, so it's really all the same technology (you don't need to get into the debate of digital vs analog, it's all digital). That said, it's a lot slower to setup for gigs, practicing, etc. You can't just plug it in, turn it on, and be playing in 10secs. I do miss just being able to sit down and play. Modern workstations sound amazing, and you have a lot of options between patches, even within just one system. So again, it's more about how you like to operate. Laptop's are far more powerful, you have even more control and more options, but they take more time to setup. And there's another perc: if you're learning things fast for a cover band, you can cheat by writing yourself notes on the screen. Not sure how I would have gotten my start professionally without it (other than carrying around a book of leaflets). Some will call that a CON, but I say if you can cheat, use it! Great for learning songs in a hurry.

Puck Funk! :)

 

Equipment: Laptop running lots of nerdy software, some keyboards, noise makersâ¦yada yada yadaâ¦maybe a cat?

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Here"s my advice as an old muso.

 

Start with the foundation of music today. The fundamental technology is the computer. You will be creating electronic music as well as legacy music, and using your artistry to communicate your take on what"s happening.

 

Go balls to the wall on a computer based setup.

 

You need to master this, and that knowledge will serve you for decades.

 

Workstations were a great 'transition ' tool for digital technology. Take the path toward the future!

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Workstations were a great 'transition ' tool for digital technology.

l like that perspective.

By the same token, romplers were sort of a Swiss Army knife for gigging musicians. Not particularly good at any one function, but a handy array of tools for the job at hand.

 

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

-Mark Twain

 

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What do you mean were? People use workstations all the time. It's the player not the instrument. That gets lost ALL the time when this thread pops up every six months or so.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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FWIW, the MODX7 is a good choice for doing both. With its built-in computer interface that's one less external box to fuss with when you expand into using computers, but meanwhile you've got a portable keyboard with latest/greatest sounds from Yamaha for not much money. It's also a super light board, and as a big plus, you've got a mic/line that can be used with onboard effects. It also impresses with its 2 foot switches and 2 sweep pedal inputs. Seems like the best of both worlds IF you like the keyboard action.

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[*]MacBook Pro late 2013, with Logic Pro X and MainStage. Yeah it's currently the center of my workflow but it's getting old, the battery and SSD is dying, and it's performance is somewhat mediocre (2 Cores, 8GB RAM). I'm considering to save money for buying a new one.

 

Ooh I was there a couple of years ago. I had a Macbook Pro that lasted about 7 years. Towards the end the fan stopped working, then the headphone output, then finally a board failure.

 

The idea of getting a Korg Kross workstation as a starter workstation sounds good to me. Looks like it has both a linear sequencer (210,000 MIDI events max) and a pattern sequencer (aka "step sequencer") so you can get a feel for both types.

 

I'd have suggested a Squarp Pyramid as a contender for sequencing workhorse, but it seems like you need a keyboard? Pyramid supports both linear and pattern sequencing.

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It's best to start with questions:

1. For your jazz fusion/alt-rock projects, what sounds do you need? (I'm guessing AP/Rhodes/Wurly/Clav, maybe CP70/Pianet/etc. Clonewheel? ROMpler: strings/brass/woodwind/ethnic? Analogue/VA?)

2. I would ask what sounds you need for your EDM work, but I'm not qualified to interpret your answers! Would the *sounds* in a MODX fit the bill? (A lot of the superknob demos from Yamaha seem EDMish to me)

 

Looking at your equipment:

- The Integra-7 feels like a good fusion/rock piece, but the 64-set limitation might be a problem live

- The MacBook is close to EOL.

- Your Windows PC is a desktop, so not ideal for live.Plus what would you game on?

- Maschine and Arturia - is the software Mac-only? Or would the licences transfer to Windows? They look like good EDM tools, plus some fusion/rock cross-over.

 

It's a tough call, but I think in your position I would sell the Integra, junk the MacBook (or keep it as a spare for light web surfing), and go with a Macbook or Mac Mini rig. Use a controller with some built-in sounds (I always nominate the Casio PX5 if you want 88 hammer keys) for casual rehearsals. Buy MainStage and save for Ableton Live.

 

However, if you want to spend your budget on a MODX7, that's also a very valid strategy.

 

Cheers, Mike

 

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Its not all about the gear. Its about having requirements and meeting them over the next few years.

 

1) Are you 90% practicing, exploring ?

2) or are you going to play covers etc in a band/ensemble ?

3) are you mostly a serious song writer, where 90% of your time is composing/recording ?

 

Thats my suggestion.

Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ?

My Soundcloud with many originals:

[70's Songwriter]

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I have a Roland FA-07 and used its XV-5050 predecessor for 12 years. Its sound engine is very similar to the Integra-7. For me, its main strengths are its incredibly flexible split capabilities (which you can leverage via the 16 parts in a studio set), and it collection of older synth sounds imbedded in some of it sound expansion banks. I play in a cover band, and I don't know how I would find some of the weird sounds I use without my Roland. If you intend to focus more on original compositions or on jazz, these things may not matter to you. One more positive thing about the Roland: it tends to have many sounds which sound unimpressive when you test them by yourself at home, but when you use them in a larger band, they just "work" - they fit in the mix, and get heard without getting in the way of other musicians.

 

I also own a Nord Electro. Even the my Electro 3 has better EP and Wurli sounds than anything I can get out of my Roland FA-07 (which has most of the same sounds available to it as your Integra-7). Organ sounds from my Electro 3 are much better than what my Roland can produce. The Nord keyboards (Electro and Stage) seems to have better AP sounds than a Roland FA-07 or Integra-7. The newest Nord downloadable AP sound ("White Grand") probably widens that gap, and reports from others are that it finally fixes the lack of a good mono AP sound for Nord keyboards, I can't test it myself because the White Grand AP sound cannot be used on my old Electro 3, but many Nord users have given it positive reviews.

 

Your biggest decision is whether you want to use some type of software on an external computer (MAC? iPad? Windows?) with a MIDI controller, or dedicated hardware where your electronic keyboard includes the sound generation capabilities. I am firmly in the "dedicated hardware" camp - I don't want to mess with a computer while playing music. But I have never tried the software/computer option.

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Maybe a mixture of hardware and software? Like - get a high end workstation used instead of new, fairly recent, but old enough for a good price. Get one with very good MIDI control (I use Kurzweils, can do almost anything in MIDI, can set almost any knob, switch, or slider to whatever is needed).

 

Also - on the computer (I do computer networking professionally). On your MBP, what is the maximum memory, and is it old enough that you can expand it? I'm using a 2011 MBP with quad core i7, 16GB RAM, and 1TB Crucial SSD, and it is screamingly fast (OK - I use it some for music, the main reason for it is that I can carry it to service calls regardless of whether the client is on PC, Mac, or both). MainStage for sounds, Focusrite 18i8 MIDI/audio. I also have a bunch of PCs including some pretty high end ones, but the Mac just works for audio, lots of problems making things work again whenever I added things on the PC. Frankly, I'm using iPad with those apps a lot, as an add-in to the PC3, or with a small controller for casuals where I want to carry the absolute least stuff possible. iPad apps are way low priced compared to PC or Mac apps (although they frequently don't have all the functionality. The other really cool thing with the iPad is that it is a lot easier to control if something needs adjusting, with the touch-screen.

 

One big reason for all the above: In the middle of the gig, if something goes wrong with the computer stuff or tablet stuff; you can almost instantly switch to the internal sounds of the workstation (I'm assuming here that you've done a bit of practice to figure out which patches would work for the gig) - so you've got a backup plan when things go wrong.

Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's

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There are so many wonderful responses on this thread! Very happy to see positive things instead of instant dumping.

 

I do think it is important to know what genre, because as someone above said, if you're doing jazz or very basic rock and with a full band, there's no reason to go all out. Most jazzers I know (even fusion guys) have one "keyboard" board (piano, rhodes, organ), and one small synth for doing all the Zuwinul-ish leads if they're doing fusion. I'm currently in this weird hybrid stage right now, gigging with my Laptop rig + Mojo61. Mojo handles my organ and electric piano, Keylab88 handles my acoustic piano synths and rompler stuff. It really works, but it's probably a little bit of a strange division of duties, just worked out that way. My next piece would be an analog synth. I do miss having hands on 1:1 controls (not even workstations are good for that).

 

Anyway, keep the good ideas coming!

Puck Funk! :)

 

Equipment: Laptop running lots of nerdy software, some keyboards, noise makersâ¦yada yada yadaâ¦maybe a cat?

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It's a bit complicated. The main reason I don't rely on INTEGRA-7 during gig is: it's too hard to change patch rapidly. This is somewhat indeed cause there are something like "little glitchy layered lead / vibraphone lasts for 2 bars" in our songs. BTW, these kind of patches would just drain out 64 studio sets quickly.

 

Seems it's possible to send program change message or change MIDI channel from controller, but it's still painful to use and not every controller features these things.

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The answer to all questions is Hammond organ. ;)

And I thought it was Nord Lead.

 

The main reason I don't rely on INTEGRA-7 during gig is: it's too hard to change patch rapidly...

Seems it's possible to send program change message or change MIDI channel from controller, but it's still painful to use and not every controller features these things.

Yes, the key to using the Integra live (for situations with lot of patch changes) is to choose a controller that features those things, i.e. the ability to instantly change which MIDI channel(s) you are transmitting on and/or the ability to instantly send Program Changes that will change the sounds on those channels individually (as opposed to changing Studio Sets). If you choose the right controller, it doesn't need to be painful at all, and te 64 Studio Set limit becomes a non-issue.

 

Another option could be to use an iPad to do these things (activate different MIDI channels, snd Program Changes), which frees you up to use almost anything as a controller, provided you have a good place to put the iPad for suitably easy fast access to its touchscreen buttons. (And at that point, you also potentially have additional sounds at your disposal as well, from the iPad itself.) Depending on how much you need to see on the screen at once and which control app suits your needs, you might even get by with a smaller-than-iPad iPhone/iPod Touch, which may give you more placement flexibility.

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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My thing is, get something with a good feeling keybed, even if it is used with lesser sounds. I suspect the MODX7 has a slightly better keybed than the 6. I would probably sell the Integra7 and get Komplete for studio use. You want to be able to render mixes without recording in multiple audio passes from a hardware synth. Computers on stage; I wouldn"t do it, unless you have the budget for redundant systems, sturdy pro power etc. All the computer problems I have ever had flash through my mind, and I don"t want to face that in the middle of a song. Don"t worry about what is going to come out, only that what you get fits your needs, feels good, and you got a decent deal on it.
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It's a bit complicated. The main reason I don't rely on INTEGRA-7 during gig is: it's too hard to change patch rapidly. This is somewhat indeed cause there are something like "little glitchy layered lead / vibraphone lasts for 2 bars" in our songs. BTW, these kind of patches would just drain out 64 studio sets quickly.

 

Seems it's possible to send program change message or change MIDI channel from controller, but it's still painful to use and not every controller features these things.

 

Dang, I didn't realize the Integra-7 is that slow at patch changes.

 

I like the idea of selling the Integra-7 and using the money towards replacing it with the equivalent Roland workstation keyboard, unless the workstation is also slow as hell on patch changes.

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There's always been some confusion over whether the Yamaha MODX series are true workstations or not.

 

Do you want to be able to edit MIDI notes? Do you want to be able to loop a couple of bars of so that it will be easier to sequence drum parts? Do you want to be able to copy/paste data from track to track?

 

If any of the above questions make sense to you, you should read this thread before buying a MODX, thinking it's a workstation.

 

https://yamahamusicians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11682

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It's a bit complicated. The main reason I don't rely on INTEGRA-7 during gig is: it's too hard to change patch rapidly. This is somewhat indeed cause there are something like "little glitchy layered lead / vibraphone lasts for 2 bars" in our songs. BTW, these kind of patches would just drain out 64 studio sets quickly.

 

Seems it's possible to send program change message or change MIDI channel from controller, but it's still painful to use and not every controller features these things.

 

Dang, I didn't realize the Integra-7 is that slow at patch changes.

 

I like the idea of selling the Integra-7 and using the money towards replacing it with the equivalent Roland workstation keyboard, unless the workstation is also slow as hell on patch changes.

I don't think I've seen anyone say the Integra is slow at patch changes, much less slow as hell. I may be wrong, but I think the reason Shibeta says "it's too hard to change patch rapidly" is because of the ergonomics of operating its front panel in a live situation (as with any rack module, though some more than others). You don't want to be fumbling with a rack unit's panel every two bars, as he explains he sometimes needs to do. Which is why, again, it's best to mate the Integra with a controller that provides its own easily accessible buttons that you can assign to call up the sounds you want.

 

As for "replacing {Integra} with the equivalent Roland workstation keyboard"... there isn't one. The current Roland workstation is the FA, and it's missing a lot of what's in the Integra.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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As for "replacing {Integra} with the equivalent Roland workstation keyboard"... there isn't one. The current Roland workstation is the FA, and it's missing a lot of what's in the Integra.

 

Somebody else on the thread seems to think such a Roland workstation exists. I just assumed he was correct. I don't mind taking the heat from you over that, can't be worse than the heat outdoors right now.

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Do both. Get the Workstation first. It's your controller. Maybe a used Kurz or a Artis-7. If your software ever crashes you still have good sounds on tap. Then get your soft rig.

 

You will need a controller anyway. The quality live controller market is very anemic. Might as well get a Workstation. The best controllers excluding the Physis are flagship workstations.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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As for "replacing {Integra} with the equivalent Roland workstation keyboard"... there isn't one. The current Roland workstation is the FA, and it's missing a lot of what's in the Integra.
Although the FA series have things that aren't in the Integra. Specifically for the OP:

- Easier patch changes

- More than 64 Studio sets (although you observed that this issue goes away with the right controller)

- Built-in sequencer

- Sampler and 16 pads (ideal for EDM I would have thought?)

 

I still come back to the questions I asked originally:

1. For your jazz fusion/alt-rock projects, what sounds do you need? (I'm guessing AP/Rhodes/Wurly/Clav, maybe CP70/Pianet/etc. Clonewheel? ROMpler: strings/brass/woodwind/ethnic? Analogue/VA?)

2. I would ask what sounds you need for your EDM work, but I'm not qualified to interpret your answers! Would the *sounds* in a MODX fit the bill? (A lot of the superknob demos from Yamaha seem EDMish to me)

Replace 2 with "Do the sounds in the Integra fit the EDM bill? If so, which ones - they might not be in a Roland FA"

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

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Jazz Fusion and Alt-Rock covers a HUGE repertoire of sounds. The original fusion guys were innovators, and I think to really be viable (and not archaic) today, you should come at it with a similar trailblazing mentality. No doubt Zowinul and Corea would be playing Linnstruments and Seaboards if they were starting out today (probably the ONE thing that "LaLa Land" movie got right). I recently wrote a latin fusion tune that used a very harmonically bizarre keyboard patch as it's centerpiece. Now, if you're not doing originals and just being a working museum band, then any monosynth should do the trick. Alt-rock never required much complexity in its heyday, which was the golden age of simple romplers: Proteus to Trinity. Those two genres are almost as different as you can get though. You may want to go software just to cover your bases.

 

BONUS: if you've ever thought of going MPE, really the only practical way of doing that is software... VERY limited MPE-compatible hardware. Many people complain about the Seaboard not having an internal engine, but for me it was easy as pie, I already had a laptop onstage ready to go.

Puck Funk! :)

 

Equipment: Laptop running lots of nerdy software, some keyboards, noise makersâ¦yada yada yadaâ¦maybe a cat?

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