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Cakewalk by Bandlab is giving me fits. Crashes a couple of times a week. And another problem - at times, working on a project with multiple VST instruments going, all the VST instruments will become unresponsive. It's like they all just freeze up - if I bring up the instrument interface, even the virtual keyboard at the bottom of the interface will not work - the virtual keys won't even virtually press. The only way to salvage the tracks with VST instruments is to launch another instance of each instrument in a new track and copy/paste the MIDI from the frozen instance into the new one. Very tedious....I can easily have 7-10 VST instruments on any given project.

 

I've seen others bring this up in the user forum, with no solutions on offer.

 

So....I think I'll pick up Live 10 for $99. My son uses it, so we can compare notes and help each other. I'll probably compose and track on Live, then port the audio files only back over to Cakewalk for mixing. The effects VSTs have no issues on Cakewalk - just the instruments. And I'm totally addicted to Cakewalk's Pro Channel for one thing. And just used to it since I've been using Cakewalk since before it even did audio.

 

Maybe I'll eventually leave Cakewalk for something like Reaper. But one new DAW at a time....

 

nat

 

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So....I think I'll pick up Live 10 for $99. My son uses it, so we can compare notes and help each other. I'll probably compose and track on Live, then port the audio files only back over to Cakewalk for mixing. The effects VSTs have no issues on Cakewalk - just the instruments. And I'm totally addicted to Cakewalk's Pro Channel for one thing. And just used to it since I've been using Cakewalk since before it even did audio.

 

Why not just ReWire Live into Cakewalk? Then you don't have to port anything...create in Reason while you mix in Cakewalk :)

 

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So....I think I'll pick up Live 10 for $99. My son uses it, so we can compare notes and help each other. I'll probably compose and track on Live, then port the audio files only back over to Cakewalk for mixing. The effects VSTs have no issues on Cakewalk - just the instruments. And I'm totally addicted to Cakewalk's Pro Channel for one thing. And just used to it since I've been using Cakewalk since before it even did audio.

 

Why not just ReWire Live into Cakewalk? Then you don't have to port anything...create in Reason while you mix in Cakewalk :)

 

Thanks for the tip - ReWire/Reason is something I've never looked into.

 

nat

 

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This wouldn't involve Reason, you'd just open Cakewalk first, then Live, and insert Live as a ReWire instrument within Cakewalk. It's really simple once you get past the relatively benign learning curve...it seems like it would HAVE to be more difficult than this, but it isn't :)

 

I wrote an article for Harmony Central about using ReWire, with Sonar serving as the example host. I think you'll find it helpful. Cakewalk has quite a good ReWire implementation, which is a good thing for your application.

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Im surprised there are not many ableton users here. Never worked with it, but that would be the one if I would switch, I think.

 

I've always wanted to like Live but I've always seemed to run into a snag with it. Since I never did much with it I've stalled out at ver. 8 but I've had it going back a couple versions before that. There was a point when I had a little time while being keyboardist in the busy band I was in that I attempted to switch over to using Live from DP but I ran into a setup problem the details of which I don't recall. Time, as always, became tight again and I defaulted back to DP which does all I need and so much more. Later when I got the gig as keyboardist for a rock show with the symphony orchestra I needed some multi-sampling. Again I thought I'd give Live a shot but alas, to get the functionality I needed I would have had to upgrade my standard version. I already had Reason which would do what I needed so I just went with that!

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Studio One

 

I recorded this album with it a couple of years ago. Haven't touched it since. Until yesterday, that is. For some reason I got the urge to re-acquaint myself with it. To which end I recorded bass and drums for one of my songs, just to see if I could remember how to do it

 

I used the built-in instruments (Impact and Presence) and auditioned various bass sounds until I encountered something called Taurus. Waaw, it sounds amazing coupled with the heavy drums I chose! Like a cross between me and Tubeway Army

 

Might just take my laptop to a rehearsal room, stick it through the PA, and sing along to it. Might be worth buying (or renting) a guitar and amp, too :idea:

 

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Studio One

 

I recorded this album with it a couple of years ago. Haven't touched it since. Until yesterday, that is. For some reason I got the urge to re-acquaint myself with it. To which end I recorded bass and drums for one of my songs, just to see if I could remember how to do it

 

I used the built-in instruments (Impact and Presence) and auditioned various bass sounds until I encountered something called Taurus. Waaw, it sounds amazing coupled with the heavy drums I chose! Like a cross between me and Tubeway Army

 

I'll have to give Taurus a try!

 

Might just take my laptop to a rehearsal room, stick it through the PA, and sing along to it. Might be worth buying (or renting) a guitar and amp, too :idea:

 

What? You don't have a guitar and amp?!?

 

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It's actually called 'Big Taurus'

 

I got rid of all my gear a while ago. The only thing I kept was my bass guitar. No idea why. I never use it. And my laptop. I don't consider that 'gear', as such

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I went from Notator on the Atari 1040ST to Studio Vision to Digital Performer to Pro Tools.

 

Now I have Pro Tools for compatibility reasons only. My main DAWs are Reason and Live (why do people keep calling it Ableton?). I use Reason because of the tremendously elegant workflow (despite the skeuomorphic overkill) and sheer number of instruments...I even liked that it was a closed system. I use Live for composition when I'm writing in a non-linear fashion or, of course, when trying to be compatible with someone else using Live.

"For instance" is not proof.

 

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I was originally an Opcode Vision (then Studio Vision) user from getting my first computer in 1989 until Opcode was shut down in 1999. Then I made the jump to Logic, and have been there since. I know Pro Tools well enough to run a session in it, since most of the studios I freelance at use it, but I'm really most comfortable working in Logic.

Turn up the speaker

Hop, flop, squawk

It's a keeper

-Captain Beefheart, Ice Cream for Crow

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I went all-in on Live a couple years ago, including the Push (and now the Push 2). Incredible tool once you get into it.

 

For a linear DAW I still fall back to Reaper. I've tried others but really haven't found much reason to go with something else. Studio One is pretty cool but since I do more creative work in Live I don't have much need for all the bells & whistles, and the full version is $$$.

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I wrote machine code on a PDP11 in 1983 to control a Buchla 100 and an ARP 2500. I wish I could say I was still using that system, if only to see folks' expressions. :)

 

Since then, I've used Music-X and Bars&Pipes on an Amiga 500, Creator on an Atari 1040ST, Cakewalk since version 2 or so on a PC, Opcode Vision and Vision DSP (still my Lost Lenore) on a Mac, and -- after becoming a DAW reviewer for a pro audio magazine -- dabbled in Metro, Peak/Deck, Logic, Studio One, Reaper, Reason/Record (does that date me?), Tracktion/Waveform, Bitwig Studio, Numerology, Lumit... jack of all trades and master of very few, because I kept having to shift focus. Now that I'm not doing that any more, I will try to choose a single linear sequencer/recorder to get really good at, with my top candidates being Studio One, Bitwig, and Reaper as an outside contender.

 

All that said, the vast majority of my music making these days is live, direct to stereo, whether gigging out or doing live improvs on the radio, and most of my recent albums haven't even been multitracked. I play live, cut out the egregious errors, and release what's left, with imperfections left in so there's a sense of humanity in the music, and that formula's worked for me for almost 20 years now. To do that, for the past 15ish years I have relied heavily on Ableton Live. I've owned it since version 1.5, used it steadily since version 3, used it exclusively on stage since version 5, and most of my studio today is based around it.

 

Is it perfect? Hell no. The tabbed interface in a single window can be downright maddening, and the Arrangement View has never made any real sense to me. Its steadfast refusal to understand polyphonic aftertouch or MPE is making me at least consider a move elsewhere, but after so many years, it's nearly instinctive for me, and I'm still learning more about it every time I boot it up. And as Craig mentioned, it's solid as a tank and runs well on even old hardware.

 

Besides, Live uses Ableton Link, the most important advancement in digital music communication since the invention of MIDI. The first non-Ableton DAW that adds proper Link support will probably be the one I go with, if it has the other things I need it to do (hence my putting Bitwig on equal footing with Studio One at the moment)...

 

Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, golly gosh) :D

Musician, Author, Editor, Educator, Impresario, Online Radio Guy, Cut-Rate Polymath, and Kindly Pedant

Editor-in-Chief, Bjooks ~ Author of SYNTH GEMS 1

 

clicky!:  more about me ~ my radio station (and my fam) ~ my local tribe ~ my day job ~ my bookmy music

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I've never really considered Ableton Live as a DAW, I consider it more a musical instrument disguised as software. I am very much into the right tool for the right job, and I would not use anything other than Ableton Live for live performance. In the studio, when Studio One switched over to version 4, I felt it had such compelling features for songwriting that it was worth switching.

 

When I talk with many people about using more than one DAW, often the reaction is "but I really don't want to have to learn another program." I remind them that because they've been using a DAW, they know how to do 90% of what a DAW does. All they really have to learn are the differences. I don't find it that difficult to switch among DAWs, but the caveat is that you need to use them consistently.

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When I talk with many people about using more than one DAW, often the reaction is "but I really don't want to have to learn another program." I remind them that because they've been using a DAW, they know how to do 90% of what a DAW does. All they really have to learn are the differences. I don't find it that difficult to switch among DAWs, but the caveat is that you need to use them consistently.

I think some people still find computers to be scary. I've heard people say similar things about word-processing programs, spreadsheets, etc. I don't know if it's true for "the kids" (aka millennials), but for older generations I've seen it a bit.

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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I think some people still find computers to be scary.

 

That's because they are! Software companies beat themselves up that they don't make it easier for beginners, but I tell them the main user-hostile element is the computer, more than the software.

 

When I was consulting for Sony years ago, I was asked if I could write up a simple process for getting files from Acid on to one of their MP3 players. "It should only take you about three steps, you should be able to knock it off in an afternoon."

 

I turned in a document with 23 steps, and they were NOT happy. "We told you to keep it simple!" I asked which steps could be removed, and said I'd remove them. None of the steps could be removed, and most of them dealt with things you had to do in Windows (like how to navigate to where you wanted to export the file).

 

At NAMM, I was talking to a music store owner who bemoaned the fact that people would buy interfaces from him, but they'd sit in the closet because people found computers too daunting. TASCAM tried to solve the learning hump with their Track Factory, which had a Windows computer pre-configured for music, and dedicated to only that task, with SONAR pre-loaded on it. Unfortunately, this was just before Cakewalk went under, so we'll never know whether the concept was valid or not.

 

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Good points, Craig. But what I find funny or interesting is that people are afraid of the things, as if their computer is connected to NORAD and might blow up the planet if they do something wrong.

 

I get it though. This is why iOS is so popular. If an app can do something, it's there, not behind a ton of menus or submenus or whatever. And because each app is generally isolated, there's no risk you'll brick your device by trying one app and poking around in it. What a concept!

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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Good points, Craig. But what I find funny or interesting is that people are afraid of the things, as if their computer is connected to NORAD and might blow up the planet if they do something wrong.!

 

To someone who depends on a computer to make their music better than it really is, losing a track can be, to them, a similar catastrophe.

 

And some people, when using a computer with an application like Twitter, practically CAN blow up the planet.

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I think some people still find computers to be scary.

 

And/or extremely time consuming. I've been away from my older MBP/Presonus SL1642/Digital Performer and other software/plugin recording system for a couple years and recently tried to rekindle that relationship. There's no point in even starting unless you've got several uninterrupted hours to get things updated, renew leases, restore/find old passwords let alone try to remember how the hardware and software operates!

 

I have newer gear that I could/should be using but I'd been clinging onto that setup because it was the last 17" MBP and had the expresscard slot for the UAD Solo Laptop thingie.

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Cubase for many many years. Serves my purpose so I never really had a reason to change.
Montage 7, Mojo 61, PC-3, XK-3c Pro, Kronos 88, Hammond SK-1, Motif XF- 7, Hammond SK-2, Roland FR-1, FR-18, Hammond B3 - Blond, Hammond BV -Cherry
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I think some people still find computers to be scary.

 

And/or extremely time consuming. I've been away from my older MBP/Presonus SL1642/Digital Performer and other software/plugin recording system for a couple years and recently tried to rekindle that relationship. There's no point in even starting unless you've got several uninterrupted hours to get things updated, renew leases, restore/find old passwords let alone try to remember how the hardware and software operates!

 

I have newer gear that I could/should be using but I'd been clinging onto that setup because it was the last 17" MBP and had the expresscard slot for the UAD Solo Laptop thingie.

 

Apparently TASCAM's Model 24 is selling very well, better than expected. That might be a statement of its own.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Finally I'm going to bail on Cakewalk. Jeez, I was a Cakewalk user when it was MIDI-only....but I'm just too tired of crashing over and over and over.

 

This is not an entirely rational decision - it's rather like deciding you've finally had enough in a 25-year long relationship. All I can see is for the future is all I've seen in the past over and over.

 

My latest miseries are just more of the same - all of a sudden, I crash in a project that I've been working on crash-free for weeks. I go through the motions - freeze the VSTs one by one, eventually get running again until WHAM out of nowhere - do the whole bit over again.

 

Problems with Sonar/Cakewalk have persisted computer to computer, OS to OS, year to year, release to release. I love the program or I wouldn't have stayed with it so long. But I can't remember the last time I worked on a project start to finish without a whole series of crashes.

 

I think it's a geriatric dinosaur of a program after all these decades of development. It needs re-writing from the ground up. Too many patches on patches on patches keeping old inefficient routines going. Oh, it's full of great stuff, no question. But I'm cooking hard in my music kitchen with serious time limitations and I just can't have my stove blowing up at these frequent intervals.

 

So I downloaded Reaper. I can't believe the code is so tiny! Microscopic! Up and running in 30. Cakewalk, in the bin in the alley I plan to never revisit.

 

nat

 

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I have a ton of older projects in Cakewalk, and lately I've been re-visiting them. I am finding that Cakewalk by BandLab is more stable than Sonar was, however, I'm holding off on the July update until there's an all-clear.

 

I've been using Studio One's Song page for new projects for over a year, and finding it very sleek (I've been using the Project page for mastering since version 1.0, so it's not like I'm new to the program). It's not crash-proof, but so far that has involved plug-ins. For example, sometimes Helix Native crashes it, sometimes not. I keep trying to figure out what puts it in the "sometimes not" column. It seems (no conclusions yet) that inserting it on a track that already includes audio is the solution. But the issue also seems graphics card-related, because the crash is preceded by a failure to draw the GUI.

 

The more closed the ecosystem, the more stable the DAW. I think this is why Reason is stable, and also, Ableton Live (although that seems to be "closed" because of user preference, not technical limitations). The more a program tries to do - particularly under Windows - the greater the risk.

 

 

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The more closed the ecosystem, the more stable the DAW. I think this is why Reason is stable, and also, Ableton Live (although that seems to be "closed" because of user preference, not technical limitations). The more a program tries to do - particularly under Windows - the greater the risk.

 

So very true - that closed vs. open thing is the old Apple vs. PC paradigm at least from back in the day. I've always preferred the open approach to a certain point...don't mind spending saturday afternoon under the hood. I read electronics textbooks, I build my PCs, I program my synths, I actually read manuals, and I find the etymologies of words endlessly interesting. My geekness is apparent to all who know me for better or worse.

 

But the computer world is gradually moving away from this old-school geekistic approach. Not that there are not a lot of people who don't want to be deep into the details of some pursuit or other - but, for example, an acoustic guitar player would typically rather deep dive into chords and modes and right-hand technique rather than adjusting truss rods, filing frets, and fixing cracked tops. So with computers - people want tools that get stuff done. No problem if the tools are complex or even fiddly, but it's a problem if they are simply breaking down and halting production all the time. A bug here and there is too be expected. But there's a point...

 

I almost opted for Ableton Live, but it's a bit too pricey for the regular package. I might DL the $99 version with the 16-track limit just to play with it and see what makes it squeek and spin.

 

So far, Reaper is impressive. And so very tweakable! And it could just be my imagination, but I could almost say it sounds better.

 

[video:youtube]

 

nat

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 3 months later...

OK, I am perusing the prevous posts so I don't post repeats of covered topics, plus learning stuffs. Post above me is from August so not too bad... :-D

 

I started with MOTU AudioDesk, I had a G4 Powerbook and bought a MOTU 896. I then moved up to DP, version 3 I think. I dabbled with it, hated the interface. It reminded me of Macromedia Freehand, there were all these different palattes, looked like hippies designed them without ever talking to each other.

 

I called it a "Swiss Army Knife" DAW and that is something I keep an eye out for as I prefer to avoid that type of interface. I DON"T wan to see all of my possible options all at once!!!!

 

FWIW, (semi OT), I started using Adobe Photoshop at version 1.07 and as a graphic designer I had to be able to switch from Illustrator to Corel Draw to Freehand and also from Quark to Pagemaker/InDesign. Point being, I've learned my share of GUI.

 

Between that and the fairly lifeless sound of the 896 (probably more the outputs than the inputs), I never got much done. I did upgrade DP, all the way to version 5.

 

Then, I bought a Mackie Onyx interface, I liked it better than the 896 so I sold that. The Mackie came with a free version of Tracktion 3. I installed that and took to it immediately. I found the interface much less cryptic and more efficient. I stayed with Tracktion, moved up to Waveform and am using Waveform 10. By now I am very comfortable with using it. I am almost always both the engineer and the artist and I find too many engineering tasks make the artist go away.

 

The main thing I like about Tracktion/Waveform is that it "cleans up after itself". If I want to look at options for an input, I click on it and all options appear in the box at the bottom center of the screen. When I am done with that and want to look at a clip, a plugin, whatever, I click on the next thing and the options in the bottom center are refreshed to the new ones. So it puts the old one away and brings up the new one. Much less clutter!!!

 

I went from the Powerbook to a used 2008 Mac Pro, last year I wanted to get latency down and picked up a 2014 Mac Book Pro. This year I got a Presonus Quantum so now I run Thunderbolt 2 and it is really fast.

 

I am happy with my new toys and plan on staying here with Waveform. If/when the internet upgrades itself out of my stuffs I plan on getting something else just for the web and leave this be as long as it lasts. Next recording evolution is to reduce the clutter, lots of plugins I probably don't need or won't use. I'll upgrade Waveform as long as I am allowed to, they add to the feature set without compromising the efficiency of the basic layout. i don't miss DP at all.

 

I gave Studio One (Artist) a spin when I got the Fishman Triple Play and opened it again recently when I got a copy included with the Quantum. I could learn to use it but see no reason to do so at this point.

Maybe I am just tired of learning interfaces!!!!!

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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I am almost always both the engineer and the artist and I find too many engineering tasks make the artist go away.

 

As you probably know, there's a valid physical reason behind this, because of how the brain processes information. I've been aware of this for some time, so I like programs where I can customize the interface to some degree. For example, I have a standard set of console strip colors for different instruments. When there's a ton of tracks, I can pick out the bass track in seconds because it's brown.

 

Studio One has a macro creation feature that I find tremendously helpful. Of course there are macro creating programs for Windows and Mac, but having one in the program is just that much easier. Being able to hit a key and do a string of operations keeps the artist part focused.

 

Or take something like an Arranger track. This was always something that Sonar lacked, so if you wanted to move song sections around it involved careful copying/cutting, pasting, and moving. The Arranger track in Cubase and Studio One makes the process soooo easy.

 

These are the kind of interface elements that really matter to me: will they help me to work fast? In my experience up to this point, the two best programs for songwriting speed are Ableton Live and Studio One, although each one is optimized differently - Live for loops, Studio One for linear/non-linear composition.

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Reason 11 (R.I.P. ReWire, long live Reason in a VST)

 

That is my primary, I also keep current on about 5 different DAWs to maintain compatibility with friends, although it's been over a year since any collaboration. I need to rethink that.

"For instance" is not proof.

 

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My MIDI computer of 25+ years finally died and I replaced it with an iMac running Logic Pro. That was two years ago. Elder care with my parents has kept me too busy. Haven't had time to learn Logic and my studio is currently not functioning due to key components awaiting repair on the bench.

 

I went 25+ years on a circa 1990 WFW311 computer running Cakewalk Pro Audio 4.5, only used it for MIDI. Yeah it's ancient but until it died the computer never crashed. MIDI latency was never a problem either (MIDI interface was MusicQuest MQX32M). It even ran MMC with my HD24 flawlessly. Not bad for early 90s computer technology. If it ain't broke... (it did eventually)

 

That whole time I was completely OTB and didn't need plugins or sampling. Have to translate all my Cakewalk sequences into MIDI files to import into Logic, but not as harrowing as if they had embedded samples.

 

Now I'm looking at learning an entirely new system once I get my studio up and running again. I have some business travel coming up and will use the downtime to learn Logic on my MacBook Pro.

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I am almost always both the engineer and the artist and I find too many engineering tasks make the artist go away.

 

As you probably know, there's a valid physical reason behind this, because of how the brain processes information. I've been aware of this for some time, so I like programs where I can customize the interface to some degree. For example, I have a standard set of console strip colors for different instruments. When there's a ton of tracks, I can pick out the bass track in seconds because it's brown.

 

Studio One has a macro creation feature that I find tremendously helpful. Of course there are macro creating programs for Windows and Mac, but having one in the program is just that much easier. Being able to hit a key and do a string of operations keeps the artist part focused.

 

Or take something like an Arranger track. This was always something that Sonar lacked, so if you wanted to move song sections around it involved careful copying/cutting, pasting, and moving. The Arranger track in Cubase and Studio One makes the process soooo easy.

 

These are the kind of interface elements that really matter to me: will they help me to work fast? In my experience up to this point, the two best programs for songwriting speed are Ableton Live and Studio One, although each one is optimized differently - Live for loops, Studio One for linear/non-linear composition.

 

Thanks Craig, some good thoughts in there.

As a left-handed person who certainly exhibited autistic tendencies when I was very young (and eventually "outgrew" most of them), I am well aware of the battle between the Engineer and the Artist. We need both of them but we have to set priorities and cleverly accomodate the primary focal point.

 

I am still learning all the cool things Waveform can do, it is a process. There are lots of well-thought-out features, some of them I haven't got a use for, yet. I may never use many of them, that's fine as they stay out of my way unless I want them.

 

I'm with you on streamlining the engineering process to the extent possible. It is easy to create a template for a recording session, I had one that worked well before I started pondering tempo changes. I need to experiment with the Tempo Stretching feature on finished tracks before I try anything else. If that sounds fine and works well then my template should be good to go for my purposes. My primary interest is in accurately mapping out gradual changes in tempo. That is something intuitive when you are playing with other musicians, you can all cue off each other's movements and adjust instantly on the fly. For now, having others play at sessions is a "Won the lottery" sort of prospect. Running blind, all I've got going for me is 50 years of my own playing, I'm pretty familiar by now! :- D

 

I've kept outboard gear for processing inputs to a minimum to spare the Engineer from excessive fiddling about, jury is still out on the FMR RNP/RNC combo but I will be testing that again now that I have a couple of new mics.

 

At this point, I am working on favoring the Artist when tracking. I am not as concerend about that while mixing, I found myself in a congruent zone when doing all the remixes for Metapop, the Artist and the Engineer were both engaged. But I wasn't trying to play or sing at that point.

 

Also making progress on reducing external noise in my room.

Too many projects, not enough time - the human condition.

Cheers,

Kuru

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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Mad props, Kuru. You're the first person I have ever met who (a) uses Waveform (b) likes and prefers it © doesn't work for Tracktion.

 

Over the years, Tracktion / Waveform has gotten a probably-undeserved bad rap from the community. I have looked at it time and again starting with version 1, and probably (due to my magazine review work) have installers for every version up to 9, maybe even 10, laying around here and there. No matter how I tried, I just could never get into it.

 

It's a lot more comprehensible now that they've added some more conventional ways to do stuff, but the way the early versions worked really broke my head... very space efficient on small monitors but very alien to me. I never got past that. I'd love to hear more about how you use it and what appeals to you about it!

 

mike

 

Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, golly gosh) :D

Musician, Author, Editor, Educator, Impresario, Online Radio Guy, Cut-Rate Polymath, and Kindly Pedant

Editor-in-Chief, Bjooks ~ Author of SYNTH GEMS 1

 

clicky!:  more about me ~ my radio station (and my fam) ~ my local tribe ~ my day job ~ my bookmy music

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