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Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D #2997574 07/07/19 06:23 PM
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MrVegas Offline OP
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I tried using my KBR-3D after being in storage for about 3 years. The horn does not work and I'm pretty sure the lower "rotor" is not working. I thought maybe the speed pedal was shot so I ordered a new one from Motion Sound but it still does not work. Does anybody know how to open up the unit and apply magic rituals to get it spinning again? Is there a separate fuse?


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Kronos, Yamaha MOXF8, Motion Sound KBR-3D
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Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2997576 07/07/19 06:35 PM
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Delaware Dave Offline
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A little confusing post since there is no lower rotor on the kbr3d, the lower rotor is simulated. There is a horn that spins, is that what you are talking about?


57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil PC3; GEM Equinox; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini Desktop Module; http://www.dyinbreedband.com www.facebook.com/acoustaxx/
Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2997588 07/07/19 08:50 PM
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yes, that's what I'm talking about ... I forgot that the lower speaker does not rotate


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Kronos, Yamaha MOXF8, Motion Sound KBR-3D
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Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2997589 07/07/19 08:55 PM
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Does the rotor motor appear to work, i. e., is the belt broken? Can you hear sound from the rotor even if it isn't spinning?

Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2997591 07/07/19 09:25 PM
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Does the light change on the front of the unit when you change settings? I know they have several generations of this thing but I'm pretty sure mine has a light on the front that shows the commanded speed.

Once I had this problem and it turned out to be the stupid TRS cord that connects the foot switch (honestly, those things go bad so often, they've become my first suspect in almost any system that uses them).

The foot switch is nearly bulletproof and is pretty easy to take apart and just visually check the solder connects. If it looks OK on the inside it probably is.


You want me to start this song too slow or too fast?

Forte7, Nord Stage 3, XK3c, OB-6, Arturia Collection, Mainstage, MotionSound KBR3D. A bunch of MusicMan Guitars, Line6 stuff
Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2997595 07/07/19 09:57 PM
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I am assuming that by ‘not working’ you are referring to it not spinning.

To remove the amp/horn assembly, you must remove both front speakers and disconnect the speaker wires.
Then by sight and feel, unbolt the machine bolts along the inside top of each speaker compartment. After that, go to the back of the unit and unscrew the screws that hold the back of the amp on the speaker box. You can now slightly tilt the unit back and pull the amp out.

Check that the belt is still hooked up to the motor and horn. If it is broken, replacements are easy to obtain. This is also a good time to clean the amp with some compressed air. Also, if you have an older unit with the white horn, you can upgrade it to the black horn model.

With the unit out of the box, you can plug it in and test the horn function, speed and sound before sliding it back in. Place it on two parallel supports to do this as the bottom is not flat.
.


Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK-1 + Ventilator, Korg Triton. 2 JBL Eon 510's.
Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: keyoctave] #2997607 07/07/19 11:54 PM
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ksoper Offline
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Originally Posted by keyoctave


To remove the amp/horn assembly, you must remove both front speakers and disconnect the speaker wires.
Then by sight and feel, unbolt the machine bolts along the inside top of each speaker compartment. After that, go to the back of the unit and unscrew the screws that hold the back of the amp on the speaker box. You can now slightly tilt the unit back and pull the amp out.



Be forewarned, this is not at all fun.

Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: Iconoclast] #2997615 07/08/19 01:22 AM
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MrVegas Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Iconoclast
Does the light change on the front of the unit when you change settings? I know they have several generations of this thing but I'm pretty sure mine has a light on the front that shows the commanded speed.




When I got my new pedal this week I connected it with a TS cable, not a TRS cable. I will try using a TRS tomorrow to see if it works. When I disconnect the cable from the speed pedal to the front of the amp, the "fast" speed lights up automatically, but the rotor is not spinning.


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Kronos, Yamaha MOXF8, Motion Sound KBR-3D
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Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2997626 07/08/19 03:21 AM
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What rotor? There is no rotor. Do you mean the horn?

(rotor has a very specific meaning when talking about a leslie. It refers to the wooden or styrophone drum that rotates in front of the woofer.)


Moe
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Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2997627 07/08/19 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by MrVegas
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
Does the light change on the front of the unit when you change settings? I know they have several generations of this thing but I'm pretty sure mine has a light on the front that shows the commanded speed.




When I got my new pedal this week I connected it with a TS cable, not a TRS cable. I will try using a TRS tomorrow to see if it works. When I disconnect the cable from the speed pedal to the front of the amp, the "fast" speed lights up automatically, but the rotor is not spinning.

That's a problem right there. It MUST be a TRS cable, does not work with a TS cable.

However, I think that even with a TS cable your horn should be spinning, you should just be unable to control the speed.


You want me to start this song too slow or too fast?

Forte7, Nord Stage 3, XK3c, OB-6, Arturia Collection, Mainstage, MotionSound KBR3D. A bunch of MusicMan Guitars, Line6 stuff
Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: keyoctave] #2997644 07/08/19 11:47 AM
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MrVegas Offline OP
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Originally Posted by keyoctave
I am assuming that by ‘not working’ you are referring to it not spinning.

To remove the amp/horn assembly, you must remove both front speakers and disconnect the speaker wires.
Then by sight and feel, unbolt the machine bolts along the inside top of each speaker compartment. After that, go to the back of the unit and unscrew the screws that hold the back of the amp on the speaker box. You can now slightly tilt the unit back and pull the amp out.

Check that the belt is still hooked up to the motor and horn. If it is broken, replacements are easy to obtain. This is also a good time to clean the amp with some compressed air. Also, if you have an older unit with the white horn, you can upgrade it to the black horn model.

With the unit out of the box, you can plug it in and test the horn function, speed and sound before sliding it back in. Place it on two parallel supports to do this as the bottom is not flat.
.


You say that the first step is to remove both front speakers. Can you be more specific? I assume you get to them through the front of the unit? There are no screws there? How do you gain access to them, is it behind the grill cloth?


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Kronos, Yamaha MOXF8, Motion Sound KBR-3D
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Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: Iconoclast] #2997649 07/08/19 01:54 PM
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Delaware Dave Offline
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Originally Posted by Iconoclast
Originally Posted by MrVegas
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
Does the light change on the front of the unit when you change settings? I know they have several generations of this thing but I'm pretty sure mine has a light on the front that shows the commanded speed.




When I got my new pedal this week I connected it with a TS cable, not a TRS cable. I will try using a TRS tomorrow to see if it works. When I disconnect the cable from the speed pedal to the front of the amp, the "fast" speed lights up automatically, but the rotor is not spinning.

That's a problem right there. It MUST be a TRS cable, does not work with a TS cable.

However, I think that even with a TS cable your horn should be spinning, you should just be unable to control the speed.

I'm not sure about the KBR3D but with my Pro 3T it DOES work with a TS cable, you just don't get Stop mode, only slow/fast, and with the cable disconnected it runs on fast. You should be able to hear the motor running, if you hear it running but the horn is not spinning then the belt broke.


57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil PC3; GEM Equinox; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini Desktop Module; http://www.dyinbreedband.com www.facebook.com/acoustaxx/
Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2997651 07/08/19 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MrVegas
You say that the first step is to remove both front speakers. Can you be more specific? I assume you get to them through the front of the unit? There are no screws there? How do you gain access to them, is it behind the grill cloth?

Motion Sound has instructions for this in the original manual, available here.
Originally Posted by ksoper
Be forewarned, this is not at all fun.

I'll second that. I love this amp, but dread maintenance. After my gig this past New Year's Eve, the bass player accidentally ripped out my AC jack, and took it home to fix himself. I received several texts the next day about how tedious and frustrating it was just to get inside the damn thing... and this bassist is an engineer by trade!


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Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2997654 07/08/19 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MrVegas
Originally Posted by keyoctave
I am assuming that by ‘not working’ you are referring to it not spinning.

To remove the amp/horn assembly, you must remove both front speakers and disconnect the speaker wires.
Then by sight and feel, unbolt the machine bolts along the inside top of each speaker compartment. After that, go to the back of the unit and unscrew the screws that hold the back of the amp on the speaker box. You can now slightly tilt the unit back and pull the amp out.

Check that the belt is still hooked up to the motor and horn. If it is broken, replacements are easy to obtain. This is also a good time to clean the amp with some compressed air. Also, if you have an older unit with the white horn, you can upgrade it to the black horn model.

With the unit out of the box, you can plug it in and test the horn function, speed and sound before sliding it back in. Place it on two parallel supports to do this as the bottom is not flat.
.


You say that the first step is to remove both front speakers. Can you be more specific? I assume you get to them through the front of the unit? There are no screws there? How do you gain access to them, is it behind the grill cloth?



Which model of the KBR-3D do you have? The older one with the painted finish and black grills or the later models with the truck bed type finish and grey color grills?

First, lay the amp on its back then remove the grill. The older models have two separate covers that are held in place by Velcro. You just need to pry behind them and pull them off. The newer ones grill is held in place by screws on the front of the grill. With the speakers exposed, remove the screws in the speaker frame surround holding the speaker to the cabinet. You can then pry up the speaker, disconnect the wires behind them (make note of the wire polarity) and lift them out. The reason it’s better doing this with the cabinet laying on its back is because when you remove the last speaker screw with the cabinet upright, the speaker will want to fall out, possibly causing damage to them. At this point sit the cabinet upright and start removing the amp mounting bolts/screws as outlined above.

It is a time consuming job doing this. Shows just how will built the MS stuff is!
I had mine for many years, even separating the top amp section from the bottom cabinet making two separate sections. My festival system consisted of the top part sitting on top of two JBL 15” PA cabinets. That system screamed!



Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK-1 + Ventilator, Korg Triton. 2 JBL Eon 510's.
Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2997659 07/08/19 02:52 PM
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You guys are amazing ... thanks for all the help!


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Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2997680 07/08/19 05:26 PM
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If you've got a voltmeter, i'd check that there is power going to the motor. Back when i owned an original PRO-3 i had the same problem, and (IIRC) ended up replacing the output transistor on the motor drive board.

For whatever that's worth,
- Jimbo


"It's called an expression pedal for a reason: It's not a volume pedal." -- Dr. Lonnie Smith
Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2997692 07/08/19 07:29 PM
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I had an original version KBR-3d that on one of it's 1st gigs flared somewhere on the amp...I could actually see it burn through the upper Horn grill and fry, the smoke and smell next and a dead amp.I went through the PA..Almost a brand new amp!
I called MS and they said, "well man yeah you got us".... we inverted a few diodes in the assembly incorrectly before we caught it in the production line nd that's what that was....I was sort of relived because the voltage at this room was know to fluctuate with an Ice compressor in the back room and I thought I just fried it.

And over the phone John, is that the owner's name, I thinks so...anyway nice guy ... he said you will have to pull the 'shelf out' and send it back to us I think they reimbursed me for the Freight back to them also at no charge for the fix or return..he gave me instructions on how to do it over the phone.. ..the shelf holds the amp, the top horn and motors and the outputs and the belt and crossover too I believe...and the mics!

So if you need to solve most problems with a KBR, new ver. or old that's what you have to do....
If I remember - all the screws on the back in the upper rear portion of the amp (8 or so) and 4 - 6 below the shelf also have to be removed
the 4-6 on the bottom are the hard ones....you will need to take out the 2 10" speakers to get to them

Once the rear and bottom screws are removed properly the whole 'Shelf' just slides out the back... and if it's the belt that went you will know right away...you will see a split belt just laying there ( I had 2 go)!

They sell replacement belts still I believe for the KBR's....talk to them or go to the website

I had to send the whole 'shelf' back to Salt Lake City where they replaced the diode. They returned it and I gigged it forever and no problem except for belts!

I had 2 belts go on me and by that point is was easy for me to take it apart again and remove the 'shelf' to replace the belts.....

Once the shelf is out just be really careful.... all the electronics and pullies and outputs are exposed on the 'shelf'
I had to wrap it up really carefully to get it back to Salt Lake city...

I suggest you think about doing that.(pulling the shelf out) if your handy...it's probably just a belt.... hot to cold....cold to hot screws with the belt plastic or nylon and they get brittle and split and snap... especially with a lot of speed shifts. and gigging in NYC with the winters.
Happens....kind of normal actually if you have ever gigged real Leslies for any amount of time...belts go all the time and rubber tires!

It was a good amp, I gigged the shit out of it.... but I love 12" speakers for piano! Th organ section was fine for me....I bought a Pro T after many years of use to go with 12" separate PA speakers!

I'm betting it's the belt from the sounds of your thread! But it could be the fast/slow horn motor also… I have replaced one horn driver also when they had the better replacements a few years on, forgot about that one...


lb


Last edited by Legatoboy; 07/08/19 07:42 PM.

SP6, CP-50, FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, XK-3, CX-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122
Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2998220 07/11/19 09:00 PM
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Well, I'm officially sh*tting bricks right now. The belt arrived and I took the screws out of the first speaker and pried it up a little. There are four speaker leads. The first one pulled off very easily. The second one does not want to budge! I am afraid I'm going to f*ck this thing up. Any advice on techniques to get this done without ruining my KBR-3D???


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Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2998228 07/11/19 10:29 PM
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Happened once to me with an audio speaker. I cut the wires then soldered the wires back together. Just remember which wire is positive and which is negative when resoldering else the speaker will be out of phase if the wires are soldered 'backwards'.


57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil PC3; GEM Equinox; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini Desktop Module; http://www.dyinbreedband.com www.facebook.com/acoustaxx/
Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2998268 07/12/19 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by MrVegas
! I am afraid I'm going to f*ck this thing up. Any advice on techniques to get this done without ruining my KBR-3D???


you are pretty close to me geographically. Send me a PM if you want and we can get together and do this. cool


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2998380 07/12/19 09:46 PM
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Well, I got it done! With a caveat. The speaker terminals were very sluggish but eventually got them removed. The amp slid out surprisingly easily after all the screws were removed. There was a little plastic piece on the top with three tiny screws that also had to be removed ... it seemed like it was something to keep the shaft / spindle on the rotary horn kept in place. It was really easy to place the belt on the two pulleys. That's all the good news.

Now I have an issue. When in "fast" mode, the horn spins up quickly and works great. But when I select "slow" mode, the top rotor almost comes to a complete stop. Actually, the horn takes about 20 plus seconds to go around once!!!! I wonder if the new belt is just taut because it's new but I'm kinda bummed at how it is behaving after all the work to get the belt on. Any ideas on my latest dilemma?


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Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2998508 07/14/19 10:28 AM
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The pots that control fast speed, slow speed, and acceleration rate are inside the amp on the circuit board. Is it posssible that you accidentally adjusted the one for horn slow speed during the process?

That’s my only guess; if it’s a mechanical issue, there are much greater minds than me lurking on the forum.


Samuel B. Lupowitz
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Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2998509 07/14/19 11:08 AM
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Yeah, I forgot how hard it was to remove and disconnect the leads, one of mine was tight also, you reminded me!
But you got it done! I have no idea why your ramp up time issue is happening though...

if it seems to tight … I don't know....did you install it correctly... been a while ...from what I can recall
I believe the belt install is fairly straight forward, just slip it around the rotor thread groove! on one end and the motor's capstan on the other..!?

Last edited by Legatoboy; 07/14/19 11:09 AM.

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Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2998631 07/15/19 01:29 PM
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The new belt will be a little tighter causing the horn to slow down. You need to adjust the slow speed pot on the circuit board to provide more voltage to the horn motor so it spins faster in slow mode. Unfortunately, this means you have to take the amp back out. It is best to test out the amp before you place it back in the cabinet any time you pull it out for what ever reason.

Since the bottom is not flat, you need to put two pieces of wood (like a 2x2) under each side edge to support it. You can then plug it in and use it as is. It will sound weird without the low end. I would suggest that you hook some temporary extension wire from the wires that hookup to the speakers so you can properly hear and be able to adjust the high and low speeds to the top and bottom (as well as acceleration for each) to your liking. The horn will spin just fine out of the box, so don’t worry about it flying off some where when you test it out....lol.

If you want to take the time, try to listen to some quality recordings made of a real Leslie on a good pair of speakers/headphones. Listen to how the top and bottom rotation speeds differ from each other when speeding up and slowing down. Try to emulate that with the KBR using the adjustment pots. The effort will payoff with a more realistic sounding speaker. When I had mine, I set it on top of a my 147 and adjusted it till it sounded quite close. And yes, there is a plastic cap on top of the cabinet that supports the top of the rotor that has 3 screws. I forgot to mention that (my bad).


Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK-1 + Ventilator, Korg Triton. 2 JBL Eon 510's.
Re: Horn won't turn on Motion Sound KBR-3D [Re: MrVegas] #2998641 07/15/19 02:25 PM
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The horn should spin at 48 rpm's in slow speed, so 12 rotations every 15 seconds. If you get it close to this then you are good.


57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil PC3; GEM Equinox; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini Desktop Module; http://www.dyinbreedband.com www.facebook.com/acoustaxx/

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