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My DP experience at NYC Sam Ash (PXS 1000, ES110, P145, CP88


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So, I had some time between gigs today and went down to the Sams on 34th St to try out a couple of DPs to get a better sense of comparing portable models that have been on my radar for a long time.

 

I wanted to narrow the field between various yamahas (P125, P145, CP88 and just for sh*ts and giggles, I took a turn on the Montage 8), the newest Casio PXS-1000 and the Kawai ES110.

 

So, I will state two thing up front:

1) I am impressed (with caveats) with what Casio has done with the new PXS series and they deserve many kudos.....but, more to follow

2) I was blown away by what Yamaha gives the pianist in the P125 at that price point! Damn!

 

First, the Casio:

 

Its THE BEST SOUNDING PIANO SAMPLE CASIO HAS EVER DONE! BRAVO!!

I was truly shocked after having owned a PX5s for a short time at how far Casio has come. (First off, I played the first GP sound ONLY on all instruments except the CP88 and Montage.) This was full and rich, and a joy to hear and play.

The design and aesthetic is head and shoulders above anything Casio has done up to this point and I only have high hopes for where they will go in the future!

Really, really GREAT work, guys!

 

Now the not-so-good stuff:

 

1) the key fulcrum.....

This (imo) knocks this instrument out of consideration for me! Yes, my technique is good enough that I COULD work around it, but, why would I WANT to when there are two other instruments (P125, ES110) at almost the same price point where I wouldn't have this in the back of my mind. I had toyed with getting this as a busking instrument in the subways, but, nah......

 

Its a very Apple-ish design decision that trades aesthetic for functionality. (And I am a die-hard Apple user.) That extra slimness DOES have a wow factor, but its just not good in the long run..... I KNOW I might be in the minority, but thats ok....and I know Casio will sell boatloads of both models.

 

2)The disappearing front panel.....

It looks awesome, but, nah, I dont dig it, nor is it practical for my purposes. Again, very slick, futuristic and snazzy, but not for me.

 

Now the P125:

 

I was absolutely BOWLED OVER by the quality of sound and action Yamaha offers at this price point!!

And, what an amazing playing experience..... I could definitely use just this for a restaurant gig, solo or with a bass player.

Or as a travel or practice instrument!

Great sound from the onboard speakers, and Yamaha has some kind of optimization technology in the headphone output where it sounds like you are playing in a big room and the piano is perfectly graded! Wow!

Especially after coming from the Casio, I felt what it means to play a completely optimized action! And the sound! I still like Yamahas the best out of all DPs and they don't disappoint here!

I even liked this better, feel and sound wise than the P155! Which I NEVER expected! (Sorry, DF!)

And at 26 lbs, its super portable! Only 2 lbs more than the Casios! And the all plastic construction seemed surprisingly durable!

 

The ES110 was excellent, but I had the misfortune of playing it after the P125, so, I dont have much to say except, its excellent!

 

The CP88 was just a joy to play also. Those who criticize it for not having a million sounds or falling short of it being an all-in-one like Nord really miss the point! Its a stage PIANO!!! The sub section is SUBSERVIENT (as Blake Angelos says.

You don't need 15 pianos or electric Pianos if you have 3 or 4 good ones and you know how to use an EQ!

I think Yamaha have done a great job here, and its the right instrument FOR ME, so I will get one!

 

Lastly, the Montage:

If I needed something that would just stay at home (with rare exceptions) and would be a production centerpiece, Id get one.

I enjoyed playing it, I like the Pianos, EPs (especially the Chick Mark Vs), the synths and I like the interface. But Id never move it unless I got a second person to help or had a road crew.....

 

 

"I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.�

Robert Bosch, 1919

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Jim thanks for the run down. I will I could check out a CP88 but GC and Sam Ash only have so many in certain markets.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

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So, I had some time between gigs today and went down to the Sams on 34th St to try out a couple of DPs to get a better sense of comparing portable models that have been on my radar for a long time.

 

I wanted to narrow the field between various yamahas (P125, P145, CP88 and just for sh*ts and giggles, I took a turn on the Montage 8), the newest Casio PXS-1000 and the Kawai ES110.

 

So, I will state two thing up front:

1) I am impressed (with caveats) with what Casio has done with the new PXS series and they deserve many kudos.....but, more to follow

2) I was blown away by what Yamaha gives the pianist in the P125 at that price point! Damn!

 

First, the Casio:

 

Its THE BEST SOUNDING PIANO SAMPLE CASIO HAS EVER DONE! BRAVO!!

I was truly shocked after having owned a PX5s for a short time at how far Casio has come. (First off, I played the first GP sound ONLY on all instruments except the CP88 and Montage.) This was full and rich, and a joy to hear and play.

The design and aesthetic is head and shoulders above anything Casio has done up to this point and I only have high hopes for where they will go in the future!

Really, really GREAT work, guys!

 

Now the not-so-good stuff:

 

1) the key fulcrum.....

This (imo) knocks this instrument out of consideration for me! Yes, my technique is good enough that I COULD work around it, but, why would I WANT to when there are two other instruments (P125, ES110) at almost the same price point where I wouldn't have this in the back of my mind. I had toyed with getting this as a busking instrument in the subways, but, nah......

 

Its a very Apple-ish design decision that trades aesthetic for functionality. (And I am a die-hard Apple user.) That extra slimness DOES have a wow factor, but its just not good in the long run..... I KNOW I might be in the minority, but thats ok....and I know Casio will sell boatloads of both models.

 

2)The disappearing front panel.....

It looks awesome, but, nah, I dont dig it, nor is it practical for my purposes. Again, very slick, futuristic and snazzy, but not for me.

 

Now the P125:

 

I was absolutely BOWLED OVER by the quality of sound and action Yamaha offers at this price point!!

And, what an amazing playing experience..... I could definitely use just this for a restaurant gig, solo or with a bass player.

Or as a travel or practice instrument!

Great sound from the onboard speakers, and Yamaha has some kind of optimization technology in the headphone output where it sounds like you are playing in a big room and the piano is perfectly graded! Wow!

Especially after coming from the Casio, I felt what it means to play a completely optimized action! And the sound! I still like Yamahas the best out of all DPs and they don't disappoint here!

I even liked this better, feel and sound wise than the P155! Which I NEVER expected! (Sorry, DF!)

And at 26 lbs, its super portable! Only 2 lbs more than the Casios! And the all plastic construction seemed surprisingly durable!

 

The ES110 was excellent, but I had the misfortune of playing it after the P125, so, I dont have much to say except, its excellent!

 

The CP88 was just a joy to play also. Those who criticize it for not having a million sounds or falling short of it being an all-in-one like Nord really miss the point! Its a stage PIANO!!! The sub section is SUBSERVIENT (as Blake Angelos says.

You don't need 15 pianos or electric Pianos if you have 3 or 4 good ones and you know how to use an EQ!

I think Yamaha have done a great job here, and its the right instrument FOR ME, so I will get one!

 

Lastly, the Montage:

If I needed something that would just stay at home (with rare exceptions) and would be a production centerpiece, Id get one.

I enjoyed playing it, I like the Pianos, EPs (especially the Chick Mark Vs), the synths and I like the interface. But Id never move it unless I got a second person to help or had a road crew.....

 

 

Hi, Jim. Yes, I also found the CP88 excellent all around (minus the thrown in sounds).

However, could you be confusing the P-155 and the P-515?

 

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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Hi, Jim. Yes, I also found the CP88 excellent all around (minus the thrown in sounds).

However, could you be confusing the P-155 and the P-515?

 

Elmer, great catch!

my bad, I DID mean the the P515

"I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.�

Robert Bosch, 1919

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Elmer, ive tried some MODX8 floor models and Im still undecided if itll hold up over the long run.....

 

Why?

One demo I played seemed to be a bit more broken in and that action seemed to be not only sluggish, but it also seemed as if the keyboard itself could come loose from the chassis given enough wear and tear....

"I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.�

Robert Bosch, 1919

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Elmer, I have an update re: MODX 8:

 

I went to the GC in Times Sq (as you know, any real NYer avoids that area like the plague:)) on a whim and, lo and behold, they had a Montage8 and a brand spanking new MODX8 and I went back and forth between them.

BTW, I dont know if it was the time of day, but this store was mercifully free of bratty kinds and wannabe beat-makers which was a godsend.

 

So, back to my A/B:

 

I got a pair of cans from the helpful staff and set both boards to CFX concert (I THINK thats the name of the patch), set the reverb send and returns to 10 and went to town.

Boy, what a difference with the MODX!

This was the best case scenario I could have hoped for......I knew the MONTAGE8 was gonna be great, but it was used as a yardstick against the MODX8.

The MODX8 performed like a champ. I had none of the issues previously experienced with other copies. The only weird spot was when I got to the bottom of the MODX8 keybed. Of course I knew it wouldn't be as solid as the Montage, but it still felt weird and slightly unsettling to me.

 

Was it weird enough to knock it out of consideration? Not quite. I may get it from Sweetwater and test it out for a month.

Its engine is appealing to me in many ways, enough to seriously consider a Montage somewhere down the line.....

To be continued.....

"I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.�

Robert Bosch, 1919

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How does the MOD8 Piano and Rhodes and key action response compare to the CP4?

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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How does the MOD8 Piano and Rhodes and key action response compare to the CP4?

 

Frankly, the CP4 action is hard to beat.

 

Im not quite sure of your overall question, Jazz+, do you mean how is the quality and optimization of hardware and software as relates to AP and Rhodes on the MODX8 as compared to the CP4?

 

If thats what you mean, Id say the CP4 is a bit more fluid as it doesnt have the hard bottom that the MODX8 has.

 

For the record, I am gonna go back again within the week to do another testing.

"I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.�

Robert Bosch, 1919

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So, I had some time between gigs today and went down to the Sams on 34th St to try out a couple of DPs to get a better sense of comparing portable models that have been on my radar for a long time.

 

 

 

Now the P125:

 

I was absolutely BOWLED OVER by the quality of sound and action Yamaha offers at this price point!!

And, what an amazing playing experience..... I could definitely use just this for a restaurant gig, solo or with a bass player.

Or as a travel or practice instrument!

Great sound from the onboard speakers, and Yamaha has some kind of optimization technology in the headphone output where it sounds like you are playing in a big room and the piano is perfectly graded! Wow!

Especially after coming from the Casio, I felt what it means to play a completely optimized action! And the sound! I still like Yamahas the best out of all DPs and they don't disappoint here!

I even liked this better, feel and sound wise than the P155! Which I NEVER expected! (Sorry, DF!)

And at 26 lbs, its super portable! Only 2 lbs more than the Casios! And the all plastic construction seemed surprisingly durable!

 

The ES110 was excellent, but I had the misfortune of playing it after the P125, so, I dont have much to say except, its excellent!

 

 

Hi Jim, the Sam Ash near Penn Station has always been an excellent place to try pianos out- I find more so than GC although the one on 14th street is decent compared to the times square one.

Sam Ash was the only place for me to try the ES8 out and I immediately got one a few months later. They said they had a P515 from time to time but I have yet to see one nor a Grandstage in a store.

 

I had originally ordered a ES110 as my portable (traded in Juno Gi/PX130 and Korg SP280) and had 2 bad units and wasn't impressed with the speakers nor bass sounds. In between the first ES110 exchange I heard the P125 and was totally WOWED by it.

The sound that came out of the speakers was CLEAR the mid range and bass notes sounded musical. I owned a P95 and a 105 breifly and this was defintely and upgrade (even superior over the P115)

 

I ended up getting the Yamaha case- note the piano at 6 and half inches high will not fit in most keyboard cases. The sound projects well out of the speakers in a small room- and I am going to hook it up to my Electrovoice ZXA-90 someday.

 

After playing the P125 I would probably buy a P515 as a home unit without even trying one out. I am that convinced. I also find the P125 Rhodes to be decent for the $500 range. I don't do any edits but sometimes switch the piano sounds- I don't think it has any tone edits like some of the other boards but of course reverb can be edited.

 

After my second bad ES110 I decided on the P125 and have had it for almost a year.

I'm glad you mentioned it because on the other board there seems to be too much love for the 1000 and 3000 and I don't think they hold up to the 125 in every area. No question 1000/3000 action is a little more realistic but I find the P125 more natural.

 

 

Korg is coming out with the B2 but in my opinion (and I am a HUGE Korg fan, owned the Triton LE, have the Krome , had the SG Prox piano module which was my favorite item ever) the Natural Hammer Action is terrible - and won't serve their pianos well. SP280 had nice speakers and a nice sound, but NH was dreadful.

 

 

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Lars, thanks for your perspective!

 

You have confirmed what Ive heard about Excellent concepts but poor QC, especially in the MP7, less so in the ES110.....and its unfortunate, as Ive considered Kawai many times but have never pulled the trigger.

 

Yeah, Korg really has a problem with their actions......From SV1 to SP280, up to but not including latest Kronos. Ill never buy Korg again until they upgrade to an RH4.....I know, never say never!

 

I agree Yamaha have a real winner in the P125 and I, too am considering a P515 as a home practice instrument.

 

BTW, do Yamaha have a specific case for the P125? I didn't see one at Sweetwater....

 

Lastly, Sam 34 DOES have a P515 on the floor now!

 

"I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.�

Robert Bosch, 1919

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Good good.

Also a side note, if you enjoyed the P-125 and Montage, I suspect you would also like the MODX8.

 

Elmer, I have an update on my MODX8 test run, as well as more decisions on other Yamahas:

 

I went back again to both Times Sq GC and Sam 34, and I realized BOTH places had their MODX8s on a slightly tilted second tier. So, I altered my attack as best I could, changing my arms and wrists to play normally at a raked angle and stayed super close to the keys, except when using a slightly sharper attack to get to 127.

 

Even with those changes, I noticed a slight bottom on the action of both boards. But not enough to disqualify the MODX8 yet.

I realized that what Ill have to is take a 30-45 day trial run with one, and Ill have to play it on MY K&M Omega stand to see how it holds up over prolonged acid tests. If it passes muster, it may be my new gigging board for around town.

 

If not, Ive decided to go with a CP73. Why the 73 instead of the 88, you may ask?

 

As much as I love the 88, one of my tests was to lift it both from its stand and from the ground by myself. That made my decision final.

Its just too much to schlep around town, plus Im gonna use it as a fake Rhodes/Wurly/Clav and I dont need 88 for THAT, as much as I like the CP88 playing experience. My new carry limit is 30-35 lbs.

 

Thats one reason Im switching from Kronos 73, much as I LOVE the sounds!

 

Plus, I really find I am becoming more specific, yet ultimately agnostic as time goes on. Im staying with the classics(VV/Rhodes, Vibanet/Clav, Wurli, Hammond, Moogs) as well as with instruments that provide a specific function:

Namely

 

1)a Stay-at-Home Workstation/Production Station (Montage8/Kronos8)

 

2)and the best and most Inspiring emulation of timeless instruments I can find, but the emulations have to be durable enough to last 6-8 years and then cycle out.

 

"I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.�

Robert Bosch, 1919

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I went back again to both Times Sq GC and Sam 34, and I realized BOTH places had their MODX8s on a slightly tilted second tier. So, I altered my attack as best I could, changing my arms and wrists to play normally at a raked angle and stayed super close to the keys

That won't eliminate the effect of the board being tilted, so you're still not giving you an idea of how the keys really play. It's not your angle relative to the keys that needs to be adjusted, it's the keys' angle relative to gravity. Unlike a non-hammer action, hammer actions depend on gravity to manage the mechanics. The more off-from-horizontal a hammer action is, the less properly functional it is, until you get to a point where it is not playable at all... and this phenomenon cannot be compensated for by altering your angle of attack, because gravity still comes from the same place.

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Yes, Scott, ultimately you ARE correct, but, I wanted to get the closest experience I could, closer to a buying decision....

 

but your point is answered in THIS statement:

 

 

I realized that what Ill have to is take a 30-45 day trial run with one, and Ill have to play it on MY K&M Omega stand to see how it holds up over prolonged acid tests. If it passes muster, it may be my new gigging board for around town.

 

Ill also add what I implied: UNDER TRUE PLAYING CONDITIONS

"I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.�

Robert Bosch, 1919

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I love the Sam Ash on 34th. Great store.

Packed with pro and better home digital pianos in addition to the cheap stuff. And they get pro boards on consignment. Great brass, woodwind, string section and they stock sheet music and lesson methods. Guitar and Bass offerings to rival GC. Cant find a reason to stop into GC at all when theres a Sam Ash like that one so close unless I know for sure theres a specific board I want to play and theyre the only one with it on the floor.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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Question for LarsHarner. What was bad with each of the ES110 units that you received?

 

One key either had a bad contact and the note would cut off while playing it.

 

On the second one D3 would rub with E3- this would lead to a click and no sound from E3 from what I remember.

 

In both cases, it made the piano unusable- this wasn't a case of key spacing, or heights etc...

 

My Es8 is the finest piano I have owned, and while I liked the concept of the ES110 it just didn't work out- I didn't find the bass area great either- this is something I am picky about as I play less classical now and more rock and blues.

 

After 2 bad units- I wasn't going to risk a third - I found the P125 better suited for me despite preferring the ES110's action.

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I went back again to both Times Sq GC and Sam 34, and I realized BOTH places had their MODX8s on a slightly tilted second tier. So, I altered my attack as best I could, changing my arms and wrists to play normally at a raked angle and stayed super close to the keys

That won't eliminate the effect of the board being tilted, so you're still not giving you an idea of how the keys really play. It's not your angle relative to the keys that needs to be adjusted, it's the keys' angle relative to gravity. Unlike a non-hammer action, hammer actions depend on gravity to manage the mechanics. The more off-from-horizontal a hammer action is, the less properly functional it is, until you get to a point where it is not playable at all... and this phenomenon cannot be compensated for by altering your angle of attack, because gravity still comes from the same place.

This really annoyed me about GC- I posted this earlier- here they were the only place at the time with the 1000/3000 and had them up high and with NO pedal!! Luckily SAM had them at a normal height.

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Lars, thanks for your perspective!

 

You have confirmed what Ive heard about Excellent concepts but poor QC, especially in the MP7, less so in the ES110.....and its unfortunate, as Ive considered Kawai many times but have never pulled the trigger.

 

Yeah, Korg really has a problem with their actions......From SV1 to SP280, up to but not including latest Kronos. Ill never buy Korg again until they upgrade to an RH4.....I know, never say never!

 

I agree Yamaha have a real winner in the P125 and I, too am considering a P515 as a home practice instrument.

 

BTW, do Yamaha have a specific case for the P125? I didn't see one at Sweetwater....

 

Lastly, Sam 34 DOES have a P515 on the floor now!

 

I'm going to try the B2- 15 watts from each speaker would be decent in that price range. The SP280 had around 20 watts in each and was quite powerful- but the action was always clicky from the get go and week despite acousitc pianos I liked. I traded it in finally for perhaps $200 6 years later.

 

B&H Photo had the Yamaha case- I had them send it to me its called the SC-KB850- its on backorder though. But the front compartment holds the music rest. It doesn't have wheels so the weight is only 3 pounds or so- different than the road runner I used for my privia.

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If not, Ive decided to go with a CP73. Why the 73 instead of the 88, you may ask?

 

 

Wow, didn't see that coming. I mean, it's not even in the title!

 

I'm quite happy with my CP73. When I originally played the 73 and 88 side by side, I had a strong preference for the 88 for APs, and a slight preference for the 73 for EPs. I went with the 73 for portability and because EPs are my primary sounds when gigging. But I don't have much space in my home, so the 73 has also been my primary practice board. Over time I've come to be quite content playing APs on it. The action is not nearly as piano-like as the 88, but the responsiveness and finger to ear connection are superb and, when you free it from the shadow of it's big brother and take it on it's own terms, it's proves to be very playable even for APs.

 

That's in contrast to the experience I had with the Grandstage 73, where I grew more and more frustrated over time with the action for AP purposes. With the CP73, I've adapted to it and feel it's fine.

 

By the way JIm, I'll be in NYC the nights of July 7-9 My wife and I are leaving the kids with their GPs in Buffalo and escaping to our favorite city. Would love to see you if you're playing any interesting gigs, especially if it's downtown alt-jazzy.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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Hey Adan, thats great to hear youll be in NYC the 7-9. I don't have anything booked those 3 days but, Im free for a meetup on the 8th after 9 if that works for you. Would love to meet you in person. PM me.

 

BTW, its interesting that weve come to similar conclusions re: Korg and Yamaha actions. As you, Ive gotten tired and frustrated with Korgs actions for APs....

I still like the Kronos, but it couldnt be my only AP source....sonically or action-wise

 

"I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.�

Robert Bosch, 1919

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BTW, do Yamaha have a specific case for the P125? I didn't see one at Sweetwater....

 

 

 

 

The P-125 will fit snugly into a Casio PX 5S case. If you can find a lightly used one, even better.

 

Thanks, ewall!

 

"I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.�

Robert Bosch, 1919

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