J. Dan Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Just blows my mind. Just watched a Frank Zappa concert with George Duke (including cosmic junk, etc). I mean the performance is mind blowing, most Zappa stuff is mind blowing to me, but I'm curious about the composing and songwriting process with such great musicians. Are these guys so good that they can just lay out a skeleton and the Magic just happens, or is there a lot of collaboration and time behind the scenes working out all these parts? Pardon my ignorance. It's just a whole other level I will never reach. Also unrelated question: the tuned percussion instrument on stage that I hear in many Zappa albums I always thought was marimba because I see many jazz trios and quartets with marimba. Seeing it on stage looks like xylophone to me. Can anybody confirm? Either way, she's amazing! Quote Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthoid Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Was this a YouTube vid? Linky? Quote When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted June 26, 2019 Author Share Posted June 26, 2019 It was on PlutoTV which is a free streaming service in my Roku TV. They have a whole category of concerts and music documentaries. Quote Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthoid Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Ah.....ok. Quote When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowboyNQ Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Dan, Zappas autobiography goes into his composing philosophy in some detail. Definitely worth a read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 I shouldn't say this but the entire book is online, free for the reading on one giant web page! Five seconds of a google search will find it (for the record, I bought it quite a few years ago). It's a fascinating and extremely entertaining read, even (and maybe especially) if you're not a "Zappa-head." In a nutshell, and to address the OP, Zappa famously rehearsed his bands to an extreme degree. I'm pretty sure that any actual soloing by anyone is improvisation but the ensemble stuff, well, you're not gonna wing that! BTW that's Ruth Underwood on tuned percussion. I'm not familiar with exactly what you saw but she's played marimba, xylophone, vibraphone & other percussion instruments with Frank. Since we're on the subject, I'll plug some friends of mine the incredible Ed Palermo big band. Ed has made it his life's work to transcribe and arrange Zappa compositions for his big band and they're a fixture on the NYC jazz scene here (or whatever is left of it! ) [video:youtube] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doerfler Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Just blows my mind. Agreed, Dan. I have posted about this before, probably in a George Duke thread, didn't bother searching for it. Every band Frank ever had was always top shelf. He was like James Brown, you make a mistake, you might get axed. The is a story where once George Duke messed up a little during the concert. Frank stopped the song, announced to the audience that George would need to get the part correct, and George had to play the part solo for the audience until Frank was satisified. Then the band continued. Dig this video. Check out George Duke from 12:00 to 20:00. As Rob posted earlier, Ruth is amazing, and then of course JLP. August 21, 1973 @ Solliden, Skansen, Stockholm, Sweden The Mothers Of Invention: FZguitar, vocals Tom Fowlerbass Bruce Fowlertrombone Jean-Luc Pontyviolin Ian Underwoodwoodwinds, synthesizer George Dukekeyboards Ruth Underwoodpercussion Ralph Humphreydrums [video:youtube] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarkus Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Ruth is on this video. [video:youtube] [video:youtube] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarkus Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 [video:youtube] Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewImprov Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Just blows my mind. Just watched a Frank Zappa concert with George Duke (including cosmic junk, etc). I mean the performance is mind blowing, most Zappa stuff is mind blowing to me, but I'm curious about the composing and songwriting process with such great musicians. Are these guys so good that they can just lay out a skeleton and the Magic just happens, or is there a lot of collaboration and time behind the scenes working out all these parts? Probably a certain amount of both. Zappa's bands were some of the best players in the world, and Zappa was pretty notorious for how much he rehearsed with them and how much he demanded of them. There's a good book about his last tour, the ill-fated 1988 tour where his band pretty much mutinied. It talks about the rehearsal process, 8+ hours a day for months in advance, working up hundreds of tunes just to have them available in case Zappa wanted to play them some night. And then he'd call unrehearsed tunes during soundcheck, and the band would scurry to get them together. Zappa was a genius. I've seen some of his hand-written scores, they are beautifully notated. And he clearly put a lot of thought into his compositions. Quote Turn up the speaker Hop, flop, squawk It's a keeper -Captain Beefheart, Ice Cream for Crow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Emm Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 I once saw Zappa live with Allan Zavod, who was mainly on piano. Frank was having coffee from an ornate mega-urn, from which you get those tiny helpings of Turkish stuff that all but eats through the cup. It was nestled in the curve of the grand piano. Allan is playing this ornate solo, hits a small clinker, cringes and displays a sh*t-eating grimace. Frank picks up his mic and says "Allan, was that youuuu...?" No re-play demanded, THAT time. Quote "Why can't they just make up something of their own?" ~ The great Richard Matheson, on the movie remakes of his book, "I Am Legend" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthoid Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 The is a story where once George Duke messed up a little during the concert. Frank stopped the song, announced to the audience that George would need to get the part correct, and George had to play the part solo for the audience until Frank was satisified. Then the band continued. Abominable behavior. I don't care who you are... it creates tension with both the the audience and performers. That's something that should only be addressed during a rehearsal or after a performance. Quote When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowboyNQ Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 The is a story where once George Duke messed up a little during the concert. Frank stopped the song, announced to the audience that George would need to get the part correct, and George had to play the part solo for the audience until Frank was satisified. Then the band continued. Abominable behavior. I don't care who you are... it creates tension with both the the audience and performers. I'm a massive Zappa fan on so many levels (and that autobiography is certainly excellent), but agree with this 100%. I've never understood the culture of musicians throwing each other under the bus when playing live, whether they're god-tier players like Zappa's various crews, or a local bar band. Does not send a great message to the audience, who I suspect 99.9% of the time would otherwise not have noticed the error. I equate it with sports people haranguing team mates on the field for mistakes - no one intentionally stuffs up, and they certainly don't do it to make you look bad. Pork-choppery just brings discredit to oneself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardware Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 Not to take away from the Masters but a pretty incredible tribute and some good talent. Quote Magnus C350 + FMR RNP + Realistic Unisphere Mic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PianoMan51 Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 The is a story where once George Duke messed up a little during the concert. Frank stopped the song, announced to the audience that George would need to get the part correct, and George had to play the part solo for the audience until Frank was satisified. Then the band continued. Abominable behavior. I don't care who you are... it creates tension with both the the audience and performers. That's something that should only be addressed during a rehearsal or after a performance. Makes me think of the horrible bus tapes of Paul Anka and Buddy Rich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cedar Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 I shouldn't say this but the entire book is online, free for the reading on one giant web page! Five seconds of a google search will find it (for the record, I bought it quite a few years ago). It's a fascinating and extremely entertaining read, even (and maybe especially) if you're not a "Zappa-head." In a nutshell, and to address the OP, Zappa famously rehearsed his bands to an extreme degree. I'm pretty sure that any actual soloing by anyone is improvisation but the ensemble stuff, well, you're not gonna wing that! BTW that's Ruth Underwood on tuned percussion. I'm not familiar with exactly what you saw but she's played marimba, xylophone, vibraphone & other percussion instruments with Frank. Since we're on the subject, I'll plug some friends of mine the incredible Ed Palermo big band. Ed has made it his life's work to transcribe and arrange Zappa compositions for his big band and they're a fixture on the NYC jazz scene here (or whatever is left of it! ) [video:youtube] Excellent! Can you identify some of the players? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 I always got the impression that concerts were a means to get Frank's music recorded. His music was so complex and hard that it was impossible to record in a studio, so he would take his bands on the road to get the music tight, and record everything so he could get the basic tracks cut live. Quote Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarkus Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 [video:youtube] Frank, you are sorely missed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarkus Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 [video:youtube] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam McDermott Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 Speaking of George with Zappa, I still get chills listening to Uncle Remus off of Apostrophe. It has been my soundcheck song on many occasions. Speaking of George but NOT with Zappa, George's playing on The Black Messiah with Cannonball had a profound impact on me. Quote "...and that TV channel at the hotel that's, like, ABOUT the hotel?" Yamaha CP 73 / Numa Organ 2 / Korg Prologue 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 Excellent! Can you identify some of the players? Well this video is ten years old and the resolution is not great. I see Paul Adamy on bass, who I worked with for many years in a band called NiteSprite (started with Dave Weckl back in the 70s, playing original jazz-fusion). The current personnel list is here. Just got back from eating some great Indian food in London with Cliff Lyons, Ed's alto player. We work together in the Average White Band and we're here for a few shows. I'm not sure he's in this video though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cedar Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 You were in NiteSprite?! I remember listening to you guys! Fun material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 You were in NiteSprite?! I remember listening to you guys! Fun material. Yea, I was in a few editions of the band through the years. Most of my time it was a wedding band! I did play a bit with them in an early incarnation when they did original fusion material. My first week with the band was Weckl's last he had just gotten the call to join Paul Simon, the gig that launched his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardware Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 Excellent! Can you identify some of the players? Well this video is ten years old and the resolution is not great. I see Paul Adamy on bass, who I worked with for many years in a band called NiteSprite (started with Dave Weckl back in the 70s, playing original jazz-fusion). The current personnel list is here. Just got back from eating some great Indian food in London with Cliff Lyons, Ed's alto player. We work together in the Average White Band and we're here for a few shows. I'm not sure he's in this video though. Small world, I use to get tossed gigs from Jay and Weckyl way back when. Havent seen the Wheck since Pattitucci and Corea re run in Reno 20+ years ago. Him and Jay did a gig a few years back and I never caught up with them. Lucky for me when they left for NewYork from StLouis years back I got their Bassist Dean. Teentown blindfolded, A Remark You Made in the dark, balls on accurate player. Cheerz Quote Magnus C350 + FMR RNP + Realistic Unisphere Mic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 And I was Jay Oliver's replacement in NiteSprite. Small world indeed. When I was playing with Liza Minnelli we had a stop in St. Louis and I went over to Jay's house. He was a zen master of sequencing drums, doing his own sampling on an Emu (Drumulator? I forget), then programming individual hits on a Yam QX1 sequencer, the one you had to type in editing commands. His programmed drum tracks sounded like Weckl! The record he did with the PM guys and Jimmy Buffet was killer. Haven't seen or heard about him in years, I think he's in L.A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewImprov Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 This has become on of my favorite live Zappa recordings recently. Andre Lewis is on keys, playing a lot of Hammond, which is unusual in Zappas catalog. Its a kind of odd, transitional band, its Terry Bozzios first tour, but has Roy Estrada returning on bass. Its a smaller band, so theres more chance to stretch out. Lewis sounds great here, and Zappa delivers some of my favorite solos Ive heard from him. [video:youtube]https://youtu.be/O7IlG3qalYo Quote Turn up the speaker Hop, flop, squawk It's a keeper -Captain Beefheart, Ice Cream for Crow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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