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OT: I Want This Car!


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Despite the best efforts of the coal industry, coal's contribution to the grid has been falling as natural gas and renewables out-compete coal in the marketplace.
Fixed. Critique aside, I'm loving this discussion, including the chance to see where I might have some things wrong.

 

Yep, agreed, good discussion.

 

I'll fix that back for you: Renewables are now cheaper than coal. Renewables are outcompeting coal in the marketplace.

 

Our utility put out an RFP for a small percentage of renewable power production and they got so many renewable bids that came in below the cost of coal and natural gas, _including battery backup_, that it likely helped influence their decision to accelerate their planned path to 100% renewable energy.

 

According to the bias-confirming propaganda I read, :D wind plants in the USA are only competitive due to heavy government subsidies. Photovoltaics, last I checked, consume a lot of energy, spew out a lot of pollutants, and burn a lot of Chinese coal(!) in the manufacturing process, allegedly a net loss to the environment.

 

You're right, that does sound like some special interest propaganda cherry picking, projection and spin. What are the sources?

 

Fossil fuels are a net loss to the environment, let's start with that. But solar panels? Think about it. Even taking into account manufacturing it's hard to see how they could come close the the negative impacts of digging up, transporting, pumping and setting fire to fossil fuels - continuously digging, drilling and burning massive amounts every single day.

 

Fire is fun and all, but it's probably a bit safer to have it burn out there on the sun and just harvest the photons remotely as free energy for the multiple decades of a solar panel's lifespan, without all the associated pollution that an equivalent fossil fuel-based generator would spew for that entire time.

 

It's worth recognizing that government subsidies have been a staple in fossil fuel development whenever industry sources complain about the relatively small subsidies for renewables. There have been tax breaks for wind and solar development as well of course. It would be interesting to compare the amounts, and to rationally discuss at what point subsidies should terminate for various energy sources when we as a society help push beneficial technology development to enhance our security.

 

It's also worth discussing how to handle changes when markets shift. Your area in West Virginia is known for coal mining, and we have a lot of mining out here as well. As coal becomes a less desirable energy choice we need to face the impacts on the mining economy.

 

At the same time we ought to celebrate the growing renewable energy economy which is a leading job provider now in the energy field, with many more jobs than coal.

 

 

As far as I can tell, the only energy sources that are both clean and efficient are hydroelectric (pretty much tapped out, pardon the pun) and nuclear fission (which creates panic disproportionate to both its actual danger and its electrical output).

 

For the moment that leaves natural gas (pretty darned good) and coal, which due to hot burning and scrubber technology, was getting close enough to clean that (trying to avoid politics here) it had to be squashed by regulating carbon dioxide. Oh, and oil, which has so many other uses that it would be nice to not have to burn it.

 

Quoting from memory, someone (Meta again? Not sure...) mentioned the difficulty of ramping up coal-produced electricity on demand. I believe that is 180 degrees wrong, although I am happy to be corrected: If a fossil fuel plant has a couple of disused generators around, it's easy enough to increase production dynamically.

 

Oil: Many other uses, nice not to have to burn it - good point.

 

Hydro: We actually could build more dams. There are environmental costs to that, unintended consequences to consider.

 

It takes a while to fire up a typical coal plant, they're generally designed to burn steadily and are referred to as "base load" plants. Natural gas has become popular for "peaker plants." Peaker plants are more useful when balancing renewable sources, as are battery-based systems which can take on peaking duties with much faster reaction times.

 

Scientifically speaking (and this shouldn't be a political football) increasing greenhouse gases poses a demonstrated, measurable risk, and that risk spawns other security risks as recognized by the defense department and others. Prudent folks will act sooner than later to avert risks as they are identified. That's a survival trait.

 

Solar energy is greatly reduced on cloudy days; wind fails on windless days; and it's difficult (not impossible) to store hydroelectric energy except by building a massive reservoir and pumping up "spare" water into it for emergencies. So, it seems to me that for dynamic loads, fossil fuel is still more practical, at least in the short run.

 

That's how folks used to think in the industry. Things have changed. The people running our utility and other utilities have determined that it's now practical to move toward 100% renewable production over a defined number of years. The grid is large, wind blows somewhere, sun shines somewhere, wind and solar production can be predicted, there are other renewable sources, and there are ways to back it up. Yes there are challenges, just like there were challenges with previous systems. That's why we train clever scientists and engineers who are innovating and making it possible to clean up our energy production using renewable sources in practical and affordable ways. Smart.

 

My guess is that once we get rid of our irrational fear of nuclear energy (and maybe get rid of the silly treaty that prevents the creation of breeder reactors), we will be able to generate all the power we need without having to burn anything at all.

 

There are certainly proponents of newer nuclear tech as the best near term way to create power without producing greenhouse gases. There are associated risks and costs of course, as well as risks and costs associated with continuing on a path of increasing greenhouse gas emissions. If you look around you'll find a variety of proposed solutions. There's no single overall solution, the optimal strategy involves weighing and deploying multiple technologies. Fortunately there are serious thinkers and doers working to increase our options. Options are good.

 

I also agree with Adan about riding bicycles. Not always, but sometimes a bike is the best transportation tool. It's extremely efficient. And fun.

 

 

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To be clear, I'm in the UK and we have a grid more than 50% powered by green sources, however you can't rely on sunshine in the UK!!

 

Hi from the USA! So as you likely know, coal has many disadvantages. One of which is the inability for coal plants to ramp up and down significantly as demand fluctuates. Over here we are dropping coal use relatively rapidly. Natural gas plants can ramp up and down quickly and are better partners for renewables.

 

Beyond that, the big news in utility-scale solar is the use of utility-scale battery systems. Tesla is one company operating in that market.

 

Also, you have plenty of wind over there as we do here, and wind can be balanced with solar as well. We also have hydro, and there are clever systems to harness wave energy in the oceans. Solar thermal plants store energy by heating salts. There are many approaches that combine for a more sustainable future. Our utility is now planning to be 100% renewable in electricity production by 2050 and we are ahead of schedule on our previously set plans.

 

You also cannot be serious about the UK grid being capable of taking everyone switching to electric cars at once.

We are borderline now, so adding all those additional batteries to charge would crash it in an instant.

 

Heh. Good luck getting everyone to switch to electric cars in an instant. More typical is an adoption curve. The expected adoption curve for electric cars is a standard S curve. We're still near the start of that now.

 

As we've seen with other major home electrical loads, desirable new-fangled inventions are adopted over time and the grid has time to accommodate the changes. I can't speak for the UK but over here our utilities like to sell electricity, they're up for it.

 

OTOH, keep in mind the low hanging fruit of energy efficiency that pulls demand down. Incandescent light bulbs put out mostly heat vs. light and are being rapidly phased out. LED lighting is much more efficient. Old tube TVs sucked energy, newer LED flat screens suck less (not the programming though, which may still suck in many cases...). There are heat pump hot water heaters, induction cooking, heat pump/mini-split HVAC, and many other appliances with improved efficiency that are cutting the need for power. Not least is improved insulation and sealing of buildings, which can go along way toward saving energy used to heat and cool our indoor environments.

 

 

The claim that lithium is "too polluting" is vague. Compared to what? Our fossil fuel systems are hugely polluting from extraction to transporting to burning it up where we live. As useful as it's been to exploit fossil fuels to do work, at the same time fossil fuels cause many problems.

 

Keep in mind that lithium is available from multiple sources: salt flats, seawater, mining. The lithium content of a battery is a minor percentage of the battery's mass, BTW. Also, keep in mind that lithium can be reused. New batteries can be manufactured using lithium recycled from old batteries. Batteries also can have a second life after use in cars, for example as battery backup for solar systems, from single home systems to utility scale battery systems.

 

There is no single way, no magic wand to 100% renewable energy. It takes a combination of approaches to get there. Hydrogen storage of power may make sense in some applications. It won't make sense in every application.

 

If you have more electricity than you can use (as the article you reference claims about the Orkney Islands), hydrogen via electrolysis offers one way to store energy. There are other ways to store energy as well including directly into the batteries of electric cars - which is more efficient. Fuel cells for ships might be a viable niche, though. FYI there are also ferry ships coming online that use batteries, which again, is more efficient. Since there are markets for excess electricity, if you can access one or more markets it's also more efficient to sell the electricity than to use it for electrolysis.

 

If you don't have more electricity than you can use, then inefficient options (like electrolysis to generate hydrogen) are less attractive. Hydrogen also has other drawbacks as mentioned earlier. Using it to store and retrieve energy may make sense in some instances, it won't make sense in every instance.

 

I have no desire to carry tanks of hydrogen in my car. Love my electric car. Batteries work fine.

 

 

 

 

The US is way behind - only 3% of our energy is produced by coal.

As Trump is a climate change denier (it exists, it's just not all our fault!) then that will hamper the US I expect.

 

I stick with my prediction that fuel cells will be the solution instead of electric cars - see you back here in 10 years time to discuss!

 

As for lithium, you need to read this:

 

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact

 

 

Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
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I have a car guy question.. who is the beautiful thing in the Renault video?

 

Thing????

 

:rolleyes::facepalm:

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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I noticed many vehicle owners, esp in my local area, dontgiveashit about environmental concerns. The complaining always kicks off with +$4 gas, for example.

 

 

I am among the don't bother me about environment hype, types. Here's why. I remember ages ago, when cars had the potential to get better gas mileage.. I remember this thru different stages... Smaller cars way back when... a car running on H2O... I met a guy for Georgia who told me about this.

AFTER these old recollections, the SUV came into vogue. Excessive Speed bumps, , excessive red lights. excessive stop signs. These things are debatable, but the larger perspective is... I was born into the combustion engine era, I am WHOLLY NOT responsible for what the fat cats decide to do with my, our, transportation needs. Had I been born in another era, I would be horse and buggy. I completely reject those in power telling me about my responsibility in regard to transportation. Many of you all, have bought into it, NOT I.

 

I will tell you, though what does upset me, in the broader context of responsibility .... waste management.. Filling garbage cans, based on excessive packaging of various articles... really bugs me. But again, this goes back to govt level.. If one crazy bastard decides to poison his wife, do the rest of us have to endure Tylenol proofing on an endless amount of packaging?

 

Same idea with speed bumps ( which cause pollutants with brake pads and fuel ) , because some teenager misbehaves, we all have to endure far too many speed bumps which waste fuel, and pollute.

 

I do not buy the narrative about MY responsibility... I resent being hoodwinked... and maybe minus the resentment part, you should too.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I have a car guy question.. who is the beautiful thing in the Renault video?

 

Thing????

 

:rolleyes::facepalm:

 

You are so politically correct. I guess for a mod, it's a requirement. You never heard the idea of a "pretty young thing" , I guess? lol.

 

Ok Mr PC, it is your duty bound duty, to serve we members here... you know like me. I had a question about batteries, that you completely ignored... now, that was unkind.. it hurt my feelings... and I know that feelings, are numero uno with PC mods like you ( Sven, being a goofy exception, oh yeah)... so what about my battery question..??

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I am among the don't bother me about environment hype, types.

 

 

I gather from your frequent posting here that you're at least 60 years old and you've never mentioned having children. If that's about right, then one could argue that you were in the luckiest generation. You enjoyed the fruits of industrialization and mega-transportation while being minimally affected by the consequences. So perhaps it's reasonable for you not to care.

 

I have children, so I can't not care. I have to figure out the facts as best I can, and triangulate from those facts towards a solution. It's not easy. Just figuring out which sources of information is not easy, and in fact it's getting harder because there are so many more sources than there used to be. But I owe it to my children (and, I would argue, to other people's children) to make the effort, and to err on the side of caution. That means if some people say there's a problem and other people say there isn't, and I can't despite best efforts know which side is right, I owe it to my children to assume that there at least might be a problem.

 

I believe in what I like like to call . . . well, I'm not sure what to call it. How about coincidental synergies. For example, an electric car isn't just better for the environment, it's also better for your lifestyle. At least, it is for our lifestyle. Now I know that's not true for everybody, but it's true for a lot of people, and a lot of those people for whom it would be true don't yet realize it. They're still driving gas cars just because they always have, or because they think it's more macho, or a bunch of other reasons that don't stand up under scrutiny. It's a free country, you can do what you want. But the world is changing. To me, there's something genuinely exciting about changing with it.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

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I am among the don't bother me about environment hype, types.

 

 

I gather from your frequent posting here that you're at least 60 years old and you've never mentioned having children. If that's about right, then one could argue that you were in the luckiest generation. You enjoyed the fruits of industrialization and mega-transportation while being minimally affected by the consequences. So perhaps it's reasonable for you not to care.

 

I have children, so I can't not care. I have to figure out the facts as best I can, and triangulate from those facts towards a solution. It's not easy. Just figuring out which sources of information is not easy, and in fact it's getting harder because there are so many more sources than there used to be. But I owe it to my children (and, I would argue, to other people's children) to make the effort, and to err on the side of caution. That means if some people say there's a problem and other people say there isn't, and I can't despite best efforts know which side is right, I owe it to my children to assume that there at least might be a problem.

 

I believe in what I like like to call . . . well, I'm not sure what to call it. How about coincidental synergies. For example, an electric car isn't just better for the environment, it's also better for your lifestyle. At least, it is for our lifestyle. Now I know that's not true for everybody, but it's true for a lot of people, and a lot of those people for whom it would be true don't yet realize it. They're still driving gas cars just because they always have, or because they think it's more macho, or a bunch of other reasons that don't stand up under scrutiny. It's a free country, you can do what you want. But the world is changing. To me, there's something genuinely exciting about changing with it.

 

I am not clear what you are saying... and I have no issue with that.. But yes, No kids. Change is inevitable, it is not unique.. to your group.. it will always change whether we like the change or have anything to do with those changes. Change in and of itself, is not necessarily good or bad. maybe you view speed bumps as good... maybe they are... but they go against pollution concerns. What is more important, a kid not speeding and hitting another kid, or air pollution ? DOE KNOW, nor care. It is entirely out of my hands, and yours.

 

Solution??? Solution to what end? Less pain... I am all for it! But that gets really complicated, doesn't it?

Electric Cars... none of my business... they will either happen ( destroying gas cars) or not... none of my business, or anyone here.

I like electric cars... btw my Dad, spoke of steam cars, and electric cars... apparently, nothing new. As I said it's those in power who make these decisions... industry giants, not us.

Loved my friends electric Fiat, terrific car.

 

edit: In my mind anyway, you implied a division between older and younger ( then 60 )

Well that is obviously not the only way to divide up the world of humanity. Another way, is very relevant, traditionalists, and modernists, even post modernists. What I am saying is people see this world and "solutions" very very differently,, not just old folks and young ones. It's a big diverse ( not gender, religions and ethnicity, but psychologically diverse) world.. and the younger need to understand the traditional types are young just like them, and are not going anywhere.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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...what I enjoy the most about them is watching videos of unprepared idiots hitting the gas and spinning one into a light pole.

Back in the 1990's there was a race called the "Cannonball Run" which invited people to bring their supercars from around the world to test their speed and mettle on the remote highways of Australia's Northern Territory.

 

The race was marred by tragedy when a Japanese dentist with disproportionate quantities of money and skill drove his Ferrari into a checkpoint, killing two race officials, his co-driver and himself.

 

The race was intended to be a regular event, but ended up being staged only once.

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I am a total car nut, and to me the Tesla Model 3 is the coolest car out there. Its an iPhone, and all other cars are Blackberries at best (more like Motorola feature phones, most of them).

 

Ever since test driving a tiny and lowly Fiat electric.. I have liked electric cars. The other day I was admiring a sax players electric car from Kia. He said it was great, except one had to be much more thoughtful about when and where you are refueling. It sounded like it was an issue for him.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I am a total car nut, and to me the Tesla Model 3 is the coolest car out there.

 

I like the design... with the exception of the dash. Too spartan, and that huge screen just hanging there looks fragile. :idk

 

 

Model-3-wood-dash-stain-1-e1525529111224-450x270.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray.
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I am a total car nut, and to me the Tesla Model 3 is the coolest car out there.

 

I like the design... with the exception of the dash. Too spartan, and that huge screen just hanging there looks fragile. :idk

 

 

Yeah, a few more physical/tactile controls would be nice and maybe less distracting. But from the chatter online I surmise it's not a problem for most owners.

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I like the design... with the exception of the dash. Too spartan, and that huge screen just hanging there looks fragile. :idk

 

 

Yeah, a few more physical/tactile controls would be nice and maybe less distracting. But from the chatter online I surmise it's not a problem for most owners.

Im guessing the reason is it allows os updates to the car as time goes, but that, to me, is problems waiting to happen. Not just with bugs being worked out in updates, but driver attention. One of our cars is a Z3 roadster. Classic dash layout, no unnecessary frills. Nothing to distract you from the task at hand. Hands on driving!

We also have a couple of newer cars, including a late model Subaru Forester which I need to haul keys. Love the drivetrain, steering, handling... even the mpg is not bad for an SUV. The dash GUI? SUCKS! Dangerous to do anything while driving. Even adjusting the climate control. The owners manual reads like a novel. Thats been translated through several languages before it got to English. Recently test drove a Chevy Bolt electric. Liked the car, and the dash GUI is tolerable. Well be looking at electric for our next car, possibly a Tesla 3 or S. But only if the GUI is sane. I really dont want a computer monitor on my dashboard.

I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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I have a car guy question.. who is the beautiful thing in the Renault video?

 

Thing????

 

:rolleyes::facepalm:

 

You are so politically correct. I guess for a mod, it's a requirement. You never heard the idea of a "pretty young thing" , I guess? lol.

 

Ok Mr PC, it is your duty bound duty, to serve we members here... you know like me. I had a question about batteries, that you completely ignored... now, that was unkind.. it hurt my feelings... and I know that feelings, are numero uno with PC mods like you ( Sven, being a goofy exception, oh yeah)... so what about my battery question..??

Oh look, someone using the "politically correct" routine to whine about being called out.

 

My reply to you has nothing to do with me being a mod, and everything having to do with being a man in the 21st Century. Maybe someday you will join us

 

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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Musicians speculating of the validity of Electric vehicles charged by electricity generated from Natural Gas or Coal is a great topic.

 

Climate Deniers must live in Vegas.

 

I see climate change every season in every year. How can you deny its snowing outside, or its so hot the snow covered peaks are melted by August.

 

Even in Vegas its really nice for 5 months but the climate changes.

 

In China its hard to tell if the climate changes. Im use to Macau but XingDao is so foggy from Coal bring burned to charge all of those electric cars its really hard to tell if the climate is changing.

Thankfully my girl is here in the states now enjoying climate change in Lake Tahoe. She loves the secluded beaches and beautiful trails.

 

Well see how she feels in October when the climate changes.

If she says no, the climate hasnt changed, Ill know shes a climate denier.

 

 

 

Magnus C350 + FMR RNP + Realistic Unisphere Mic
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Is the girl included?

 

:laugh:

 

[video:youtube]

 

SO your choice of video has nothing to do with sex appeal and its well estblished connection to selling? But dare I say Pretty Young Thing, and we get all sensitive about the getting richer by the minute, pure as driven snow sales blondie.

Your logic fails me, in any century.

 

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I drive a 12-year-old Camry Hybrid. Not sure how many miles on it because I never think about that. I think it's over 125,000. It's been the most reliable and lowest maintenance car I've ever owned. My next car will be an electric subcompact that they don't make yet, a Volvo or a BMW or a Mercedes or an Audi -- whichever one is easiest for my aged body to get in and out of and which has the largest cargo area with the rear seat down.

 

I just wanted to "pull your coat" to those cars you mentioned...

This 51 years experience mechanic has 2.4 million subscribers. He is a big advocate of saving money and as a consequence his favorite car for reliability is Toyota/ Lexus, followed by Honda, Ford F150 and a few others

None of the cars you anticipate are on his reliable - over- 100000 miles - list. Matter of a number of them are money pits after a few years.... beware!

He also is not that excited by most electric cars, maybe Prius, but check him out, please, he has that vibe of authenticity; not so common these days.. Authenticity and ability, that is.

https://m.youtube.com/user/scottykilmer/videos?

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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... My next car will be an electric subcompact that they don't make yet, a Volvo or a BMW or a Mercedes or an Audi -- whichever one is easiest for my aged body to get in and out of and which has the largest cargo area with the rear seat down.

 

I just wanted to "pull your coat" to those cars you mentioned.

This 51 years experience mechanic has 2.4 million subscribers. He is a big advocate of saving money and as a consequence his favorite car for reliability is Toyota/ Lexus, followed by Honda, Ford F150 and a few others

None of the cars you anticipate are on his reliable - over- 100000 miles - list. Matter of a number of them are money pits after a few years.... beware!

Let me pull your coat a little. NONE of those cars I mentioned are even made yet or available in the US, except possibly the Audi e-tron. None of them has traveled 1000 miles, let alone 100,000 miles. Reliability of all of these is therefore unknown. Anticipating reliability based on earlier gas engine models is comparing apples and automobiles, to coin a phrase. ;) Comparing the reliability of only electric vehicles would make more sense. Comparing reliability of existing cars to ones that don't exist yet seems difficult at best.

 

These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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