When MIDI devices clash

[J. Dan]

Have a CD release show coming up, which is going to be a large venue, big production, so I was wanting to really beef up my live performance. Being a 6 piece, it's rare that I have much footprint for my rig, much less stage space to roam. But in this case, I though it would be great to bust out the keytar and the band overwhelmingly agreed. So next challenge is to actually make it work.

 

There are really 2 solos I want to do on the Keytar, which is a Roland AX7 with a wireless MIDI transmitter. So the intention is that sounds come from where they always did, just triggered by the AX7. Normal rig is Kronos with a 2nd tier A70 triggering additional sounds in the Kronos, and I added an MFB Dominion 1. One solo is normally on the Dom 1 and one is on the Kronos. Enter the AX7.

 

Let's start with the Kronos based solo....I use the ribbon and PB on the Kronos. The ribbon on AX7 is PB, it also has D-Beam which I've never used. Looking at assignable CCs for the D-Beam, only possible way to use it in place of the Kronos ribbon is to change which CC that parameter responds to which would mean a different version of the patch. Ok. Now for the Dom 1. It doesn't respond to the full resolution of PB - only 128 instead of whatever normal PB is, 3470 or something, I don't known. Point being is that it stairsteps for larger bends. Also, the AX7 only does on/off for modulation and the Dom 1 doesn't allow for a depth setting. Very controllable on the synth itself from the onboard mod ribbon, but if my choice is 0 or 100%, no dice.

 

So now I'm thinking MIDI solutions Event Processor - I think I may have one from years back in storage. But practice is Monday night for the Friday gig. Didn't anticipate these shortcomings. Just thought I'd plug in the AX7 and roll with it, so I'm a little behind the 8-ball here. Guess I'll check storage and see if I can make the band aid work within a couple hours, and if not, abandon the keytar and stay parked back in my corner.

 

 

 

Incidentally, this brings up a related issue some of you could address: as I consider possible solutions, I also have to consider that most gigs won't incorporate the keytar. I know some of you play with different rigs, but the same band, depending on the size of the show. So you plan for different shows and compact vs large rigs up front to make it seamless?

[EscapeRocks]

Hey Dan,

 

Can't help you with control of the Dominion.

 

As far as different rigs. My rig is setup so that I can either use Mainstage (or Gig Performer) or just hardware. It depends on the venue and type of show. These 95 degree outdoor festivals that are "throw and go" get the hardware only rig.

The good venue, headliner gigs, get the full Mainstage rig.

 

Also, sometimes I incorporate my keytar, sometimes not. The sounds I use from the keytar all come from the MODX. I have two versions of the two programs I use the keytar for on the MODX.

 

The difference is, hardware rig is just two board and an AX-48 stand. The Mainstage rig is the previous, plus a rack and stand, and a laptop stand.

 

My hardware rig is now a Roland DS88 and Yamaha MODX6. Each has two sets of programs. One for Mainstage and one for hardware only. They are saved on thumb drive, so I just load which ever I need.

[Tom Williams]

I've had just about everything except the AX-7 itself: AX-1, -Synth, and currently -Edge. Are you sure that the AX-7 only does on/off for modulation? I swear all three of my squishy-bars were continuous controllers -- albeit, still limited to 127 values.

[J. Dan]

I've had just about everything except the AX-7 itself: AX-1, -Synth, and currently -Edge. Are you sure that the AX-7 only does on/off for modulation? I swear all three of my squishy-bars were continuous controllers -- albeit, still limited to 127 values.

 

You might be right, but I can't seem to get it to do anything less than extreme amounts. The Dom 1 doesn't have a way to scale the depth, so on it's local ribbon, I'm maxing out at maybe 10-15% for musical results in a solo. Pushing the bar on the AX7 just slightly results in something not remotely musical.

[hardware]

I basically retired all of my keyboards so I could use a single controller and select modules to supplement PTeq, Omnisphere, Zebra2, PLAY & Kontakt.

I had the MIDI Blues before that. PX-3S, Solaris, OBX-m, PC, etc.

Had to use MIDI Solutions, McMullen QuNexus with PAT, a BCF-2000 and BOME Box with MIDI Translator Pro projects.

 

Ever since I bought the Physis K4 its been a breeze.

Take certain modules for each of the 3 different gigs I do.

 

Total automation and chain playing for rapid showroom style requirements.

I love MIDI but I prefer being able to perform and think ahead without trying to remember technical work arounds.

 

 

 

 

[J. Dan]

I really wish the centerpiece of my rig - the Kronos - was more flexible with MIDI including doing some manipulation in and out, Karma has some workarounds in some cases but it's clunky, I have always felt like Kurzweil kind of leads in that regard even though Roland has some of the best implementation on the receiving end.

[psionic11]

You never did mention your MIDI signal flow from AX7 to the others. Wireless DIN or USB into Kronos DIN or USB? Thru to Dom? Or to Dom then THRU to K?

 

If you use an iPad in your live rig, MidiFlow might be able to do some manipulation for you. But the MidiSolutions Event Processor is probably your best bet.

 

One crucial feature I miss from my X-station is MIDI merge. Kronos should have had that feature. I faked it once in KARMA using a pad GE, but the result was clunky with envelope retriggers. I ended up just getting a Mio4 anyway.

 

I believe you can have your cake and eat some of it. You've got the AX7 to Kronos portion figured out, so can go to front of stage for your solo there. For the Dominion solo, you could do some parts of the solo on the AX7, then shamble on over to the Dominion to do your PB or mod ribbon parts, then move away again.

 

For my wireless bass + keys songs, I'm free to move around to and away from the keys. At one point I even attached a 2nd FCB to the first, and placed the 2nd one closer to the drums so I could make eye contact with drummer and guitarist while doing bass fills and playing MIDI notes with my feet.

 

Point is, moving around stage to play different pieces of gear is novel and entertaining to the audience. Maybe you could get an Alesis Vortex Wireless as a 2nd keytar.

[J. Dan]

Well, I pulled my MIDI Solutions Plus out of storage and have everything mostly working as needed for tonight's show.

 

(All DIN MIDI) AX-7 to WIDI wireless MIDI box, Receiving end of WIDI out to Event Processor Plus, out to A-70 IN2 (merges all incoming data with what's played on A70), Out 1 to Kronos IN, Kronos Thru to MFB Dominion 1.

 

Event processor scales Mod 0-127 down to 0-25 on channel 16 (dom 1 channel) which seems to work well. Also converts D-Beam (assigned to CC#11) to CC#16 (Kronos Ribbon) on channel 1.

 

I have 2 patches set up on the AX7 - one simply uses the Upper/Lower buttons to toggle between transmitting on channels 15 or 16. I use this to switch between a Kronos part and the Dom 1 so I can do it quickly on the fly while soloing. The other one simply transmits on channel 1 to control a solo patch on the Kronos, but also enables D-Beam.

 

Only problem I'm having is when I change between the 2 on the AX-7, it globally disables MFX on the Kronos, so I have to in and uncheck the box each time. Can't figure out why it's doing that. If I can figure out what message is causing that to happen, I can either fix it in the AX-7 or just filter it in the Event Processor box.

 

 

EDIT: Thanks to some help from the Korg Forum, I fixed the last problem. CC's 94 and 95 enable/disable the FX, so I filtered those in the Event Processor Plus as well.

[J. Dan]

Everything mostly worked like a charm. But I discovered a patch that I think D-Beam was messing with. I guess I never practiced it with the Keytar turned on and set to the patch that had D-Beam enabled. Couldn't figure out what was going on. Finally about halfway through the song, I disabled D-Beam and it worked fine. There's ALWAYS that kind of crap at the live show. You just never know until you do it onstage, lol. Overall, great show. Crowd LOVED the keytar! Wish I was using my IEM's though. Since it was a 3 band gig with house sound and I didn't have control over my own mix, I went with monitors. That meant as soon as I stepped away from my little corner of the stage, I lost all keys. As far as I know, I played great. I couldn't hear it, but it looked great! Folks in the crowd said it was good, so I'll go with that!

[psionic11]

Great to hear you got it all sussed out! If the audience says it was good, then it WAS good... (for the most part)!

 

That A70 sounds like it's a great controller, I'd probably snatch one up if I wasn't already set.

 

But... I thought you were in a symphonic metal band? I pictured an 80s crowd digging the keytar, not a metal crowd?

 

Hey, if it works, it works.

 

 

[J. Dan]

Not symphonic metal. Progressive metal. Think more Dream Theater or Sons of Apollo.

 

One song in particular, one of the guitar players and I trade off solos back and forth, so they wanted me out front with him for the visual.

 

[J. Dan]

A little more background on this gig.... With original local metal bands, it's almost always 2-3 bands splitting the bill, and usually the stage would be too cramped for me to do anything like this, so I haven't played the keytar before. This was a larger venue but still 3 bands and we were 2nd. The headliner had the drum riser and rather than set up in front of it and really cramp the stage, we put a video screen in front of the headliner's drum riser and drums, and put our drums on one side, and keys on the other side, with our 2 guitars, bass, and lead vocal along the front. It looked cool but me and the drummer were almost tucked back in the corners. It was kind of funny we kept looking over at each other across the drum riser, behind the video screen and rocking out in our own little world back there!

 

Anyway, for the solos, rather than have them come from some dark corner of the stage, they wanted me to be able to step out front. For some context, a couple pictures:

 

http://ohbrotherstl.com/7oN/Live/StageBlue.jpg

http://ohbrotherstl.com/7oN/Live/StageOrange.jpg

 

Close up of the Screen from the last pic:

 

http://ohbrotherstl.com/7oN/Live/Screen.jpg

 

So you can sort of see me keys next to the bass amp on the right and my head popping through the lights a little.

 

My friend to a little bit of cell phone video.....of course with all the caveats of cell phone audio. He's behind the mains so you're pretty much just hearing drums and one of the guitar amps (not the one that's actually soloing, unfortunately). He started the video when we were pretty much wrapping up the solos, so the video misses most of it. There's actually over a minute of us soloing back and forth. But in terms of the visual and WHY the keytar in this case, I think you can see by looking at the pictures vs what's going on in the video, the reason for the keytar.....

 

[video:youtube]PBFn1a-KaqQ

 

And finally a view from the stage showing the key rig. You can see the drum riser next to me and the BACK of the video screen that the audience saw.

 

http://ohbrotherstl.com/7oN/Live/Keys.jpg

[psionic11]

Nice pics. Big stage, lots of lights, and a lot of wedges. Stage volume must have been rocking.

 

The Haven by Full Sail here in Orlando has a pretty big stage, and they also put on metal shows pretty often.

 

Looks like you had a blast. Keep on representing keys, you usually only see them in Top 40 acts.