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Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Synthoid] #2994606 06/18/19 10:53 AM
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Losendoskeys Offline
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LOVE cars, especially this Renault concept.
We have 9.

Don't fool yourself into thinking electric cars are green, they aren't.
Have you seen where the batteries come from?

It's also highly unlikely the distribution network could ever deal with everyone plugging in their cars.

Can't beat a good old V8 - even an American one!


Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
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Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Synthoid] #2994607 06/18/19 11:01 AM
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Synthoid Offline OP
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You have Nine cars?

[Linked Image]


Last edited by Synthoid; 06/18/19 11:01 AM.

When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray.
Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Synthoid] #2994633 06/18/19 01:35 PM
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Losendoskeys Offline
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Originally Posted by Synthoid
You have Nine cars?

[Linked Image]


Can';t believe an American person is surprised at someone owning nine cars! laugh
I'm afraid we (me and SWMBO) ARE petrol heads.......here's one of them!
[Linked Image]IMG_1120 by Alan Pearson, on Flickr


Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Losendoskeys] #2994684 06/18/19 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Losendoskeys
LOVE cars, especially this Renault concept..........

Can't beat a good old V8 - even an American one!


I am irrationally drawn to Hemi Dodge stuff. I have heard bad reports on Dodge.. but love the Dodge Charger of today.
My friend wants to sell me an old Durango with Hemi in it.. but 11mpg .. oh well.

OT , well not that OT, my Kia is a late model 4 cylinder GDI engine. I assume it is true that GDI leaves nasty deposits. One guy Scotty Kilmer says go with an Oil Catch Can for GDI.
Any opinions on this catch can on a warrantied Kia.. where there are so many computers, maybe putting a catch can, might be a catch 22? Catch my drift? My other friend says the computers on cars today are so sensitive to modification of any sort, a catch can might be a problem.

Last edited by I-missRichardTee; 06/18/19 06:21 PM.

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We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement
Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Synthoid] #2994689 06/18/19 06:30 PM
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My wife and I like European cars and have owned very modest models of high end brands. I tend to hold onto cars for 100,000 miles, so every time I trade up, it feels like I'm in the future. We were looking for a replacement for my wife's X5, and we happened to test drive a Mazda CX9 for fun. When that thing added torque to the steering wheel and moved me back into my lane when I intentionally drifted onto the shoulder at 80 mph, I was sold.

It can also hold a lot synths.


"For instance" is not proof.
Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Synthoid] #2994711 06/18/19 07:57 PM
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Easy to see why car enthusiasts will stick with gas until they pry the steering wheel from their cold dead fingers. Gas cars give you more to tinker with, for one. My wife and I are too busy for that. Way too busy. The beauty of owning an electric car is how much you don't have to tinker with it, or think about it at all beyond plugging it in at night.

Most of the environmental harm associated with an electric car is "baked in" with the battery production. By contrast, the environmental harm associate with a gas car occurs in proportion to its use. Drive both cars far enough and those lines will cross and the electric become better than the gas. What's "far enough"? That requires an engineering analyses with lots of assumption built in.


Crumar Seven, Crumar Mojo 61, Korg Vox Continental, Yamaha CP73.

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Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Synthoid] #2994721 06/18/19 08:18 PM
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Many sources seem to point toward the li-on batteries becoming more recyclable as more businesses find it profitable. I’ve read that currently only a small portion is being recycled, but it’s heading in the right direction. They’re also being re-used. After about 7-10 years, they’re basically spent for car use, but perfectly suitable for other uses, often being used as backup power in commercial applications, even hospitals. As much as I’ve been a gas burning car/motorcycle enthusiast most of my life, I will be moving over with our next car. Electrics aren’t ideal, but I’ve come to believe we can’t keep burning fossil fuels. The older I get, the greener I’ve tried to be.


I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Lady Gaia] #2994733 06/18/19 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Gaia


That can be a deal-breaker, but it depends on how and why you do road trips. If you’re looking to put in as many miles as possible as fast as possible, like if you run the same route all the time, then electric definitely has serious drawbacks and is likely out of the running. If you don’t mind a slightly more leisurely pace and stop for a coffee or a meal a couple of times, though? It’s a different story.

Most people think of recharging as hanging out at a gas station for half an hour, only it’s not like that at all. We’ve driven up and down the West Coast numerous times from Vancouver BC to San Diego and they’ve been some of the most enjoyable road trips ever. You stop at a supercharger, plug in, and wander off to find a diner or a Starbucks. You can keep an eye on the charging process or get notified when it’s time to return, refreshed, and get on your way. It’s not for everyone, but it works well for us.


This is good to know, so thanks. You're right, our use case is very specific. We drive back and forth between Mass and Florida with our three dogs several times a year. It's a well-engineered exercise around departure times, traffic re-routes and fuel/biology stops. However, our few leisure trips tend to be in very remote places, so still potentially a concern.

And to the poster who was shocked that I had nine cars at one time, it was just a phase I had to get through. I am hardly unique. SWMBO (had to google it) was totally along for the ride. Just like I'm going through a gear phase right now. May it never end.


Life is too short to be playing bad music.

Keys: NP2, NS3C
Home: Bosie 200, Yam AG N3
Amps: FA 12acs, RCF TT08as, QSC K.2s, EVOX J8, SSv3
Stuff: Stay stands, Key Largo, Vent II, X-Air 18
Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Adan] #2994734 06/18/19 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Adan
Easy to see why car enthusiasts will stick with gas until they pry the steering wheel from their cold dead fingers. Gas cars give you more to tinker with, for one. My wife and I are too busy for that. Way too busy. The beauty of owning an electric car is how much you don't have to tinker with it, or think about it at all beyond plugging it in at night.

Most of the environmental harm associated with an electric car is "baked in" with the battery production. By contrast, the environmental harm associate with a gas car occurs in proportion to its use. Drive both cars far enough and those lines will cross and the electric become better than the gas. What's "far enough"? That requires an engineering analyses with lots of assumption built in.



I noticed many vehicle owners, esp in my local area, dontgiveashit about environmental concerns. The complaining always kicks off with +$4 gas, for example.

I like my minimalist, small foot print , high utility car ownership. cheap cheap.

I am at the stage of life, where I have no need to impress anyone with my ride. I still enjoy my car's CD player.
On the other hand, I will show off my yard/garden in a heart beat. thats creativity and toil at work.

And yes, I have an audio cassette collection, I treasure.

Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: cphollis] #2994780 06/19/19 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by cphollis
And to the poster who was shocked that I had nine cars at one time, it was just a phase I had to get through. I am hardly unique.


Well, I don't know anyone personally who had that many at one time. Maybe 4 or 5 tops. Must be a regional thing.


When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray.
Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Synthoid] #2994783 06/19/19 03:06 AM
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My gig car is a 2003 Ram 1500. I'll be putting a cover on the bed again soon, but for now if the weather is threatening (It's Florida, it's ALWAYS threatening) I can get everything in the cab.

My other car is a 2010 Kia Soul. I can get it all in there too, I just have to set the piano case partially on the arm rest between the seats because the case is so long. I just can't get my hand truck in it.

My dream car is 56 Vette, but I know that's impractical. When I was a kid I had to ride in the back seat of a Corvette. Yes, I know, there IS NO back seat. I was just stuffed in behind the seats. The only time I've ridden in one.

Since my truck is a crew cab, we just think of it as a family car with a huge trunk.


"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.
So God helped him and created woman.

Now everybody's got the blues."

Willie Dixon




Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: stillearning] #2994803 06/19/19 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by stillearning
Many sources seem to point toward the li-on batteries becoming more recyclable as more businesses find it profitable. I’ve read that currently only a small portion is being recycled, but it’s heading in the right direction. They’re also being re-used. After about 7-10 years, they’re basically spent for car use, but perfectly suitable for other uses, often being used as backup power in commercial applications, even hospitals. As much as I’ve been a gas burning car/motorcycle enthusiast most of my life, I will be moving over with our next car. Electrics aren’t ideal, but I’ve come to believe we can’t keep burning fossil fuels. The older I get, the greener I’ve tried to be.


Fuel cells in cars will soon overtake electric cars - they are a poor substitute for petrol cars anyway in terms of the environment.


Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: cphollis] #2994804 06/19/19 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by cphollis
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia


That can be a deal-breaker, but it depends on how and why you do road trips. If you’re looking to put in as many miles as possible as fast as possible, like if you run the same route all the time, then electric definitely has serious drawbacks and is likely out of the running. If you don’t mind a slightly more leisurely pace and stop for a coffee or a meal a couple of times, though? It’s a different story.

Most people think of recharging as hanging out at a gas station for half an hour, only it’s not like that at all. We’ve driven up and down the West Coast numerous times from Vancouver BC to San Diego and they’ve been some of the most enjoyable road trips ever. You stop at a supercharger, plug in, and wander off to find a diner or a Starbucks. You can keep an eye on the charging process or get notified when it’s time to return, refreshed, and get on your way. It’s not for everyone, but it works well for us.


This is good to know, so thanks. You're right, our use case is very specific. We drive back and forth between Mass and Florida with our three dogs several times a year. It's a well-engineered exercise around departure times, traffic re-routes and fuel/biology stops. However, our few leisure trips tend to be in very remote places, so still potentially a concern.

And to the poster who was shocked that I had nine cars at one time, it was just a phase I had to get through. I am hardly unique. SWMBO (had to google it) was totally along for the ride. Just like I'm going through a gear phase right now. May it never end.

Amen to that.
And you're not unigue, theres me!


Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Losendoskeys] #2994805 06/19/19 10:58 AM
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Well I guess it depends on your circumstances, a friend of mine recently purchased a Hyundai Ioniq plugin hybrid. After 5,000 klms he has used about 10 litres of gas. He has his own solar power with battery storage and is a net seller of kilowatts into the grid, after charging his car and powering all his own home energy needs. So I guess in his case a net emissions win. I am still an old school V8 powered emitter, but look forward to the day when the economics add up to to drive around in an EV in ludicrous mode powered by solar energy from the roof on my house. As for the number of cars owned, it is a red herring, I own more than one but only get to drive one at a time, mainly determined by the UV exposure during the day or air temp at night.


MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P
"Music is a journey. We are all at a different stage in that journey." James Morrison, Australian trumpet legend
Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Losendoskeys] #2994856 06/19/19 05:29 PM
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I've always had a passion for cars and motorcycles. But if you're concerned about the environment (not saying you should be, but . . . yeah, should be), you have to acknowledge that using a 4,000 lbs vehicle to move 200 lbs of cargo is far from ideal. I drive a car when it's necessary, but I've mostly turned to bicycles, and in particular electric bikes, as a situational replacement. With my cargo ebike, I can take both my kids to school and pick up groceries on the way home. My commuter ebike can get me to work literally faster than my car because I'm bypassing traffic, and is way more fun. Granted, these strategies won't work as well in Minnesota in January. The point is not total replacement, the point is having different arrows in your transportation quiver to suit each situation, and hopefully not be moving tons of weight when you don't need to.


Crumar Seven, Crumar Mojo 61, Korg Vox Continental, Yamaha CP73.

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Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Losendoskeys] #2995034 06/20/19 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Williams

remember, if you drive an electric car east of the Mississippi, it is probably running on coal.


Good thing electric cars are already cleaner than comparable gas/diesel cars even when running on today's grid energy mix. Already we use less than 100% coal, and depending on the area, generally a lot less.

That's how it is right now. Looking down the road, gas/diesel cars run dirtier as they age. Whereas electric cars run cleaner and cleaner as the area grid becomes cleaner.

Despite the best efforts of the coal industry, coal's contribution to the grid has been falling as natural gas and renewables out-compete coal in the marketplace. Electric cars are not only cleaner today but will continue to improve over time, the opposite of gas/diesel cars.

Some folks fuel electric cars from their own solar systems and run on sunshine. Whereas, try putting an oil refinery on your roof - it won't work and you wouldn't want to live under one if it did...

All that aside, as a driver of electric and gas vehicles, I prefer electric. Electric cars are more fun.

Even the current non-Tesla cars have smoother application of power and torque, quieter ride and lack of stinky fumes. There are a variety of electric vehicles on the market (and more coming) - take a test drive if you can, and see what you think.

We've been driving electric for 90+% of our trips for more than five years, all around the metro area here. It's been a great experience. No oil changes, no tune-ups, no stinky gas stations, no fumes in the garage when we preheat the car on a cold winter's day. Always fully charged every morning and ready for the day.

We do appreciate our gas (hybrid) as a stand-in for long distance trips until we can afford a long range Tesla or equivalent pure-electric road-tripping' car. In the mean time, we use our gas car sparingly as it's more expensive to run and more of a time soak with oil changes, gas stations, and other maintenance, I appreciate it for now, but won't miss it when it's gone.

Originally Posted by Losendoskeys
Originally Posted by stillearning
Many sources seem to point toward the li-on batteries becoming more recyclable as more businesses find it profitable. I’ve read that currently only a small portion is being recycled, but it’s heading in the right direction. They’re also being re-used. After about 7-10 years, they’re basically spent for car use, but perfectly suitable for other uses, often being used as backup power in commercial applications, even hospitals. As much as I’ve been a gas burning car/motorcycle enthusiast most of my life, I will be moving over with our next car. Electrics aren’t ideal, but I’ve come to believe we can’t keep burning fossil fuels. The older I get, the greener I’ve tried to be.

Fuel cells in cars will soon overtake electric cars - they are a poor substitute for petrol cars anyway in terms of the environment.


Actually, looking at the data, electric cars ARE a great replacement for petrol cars in terms of the environment. Cleaner now, even cleaner over time. Despite a variety of industry-funded disinformation on the inter webs, the data shows that electric motors are far more efficient than gas/diesel engines. Electric motors create no pollution locally and less pollution overall, even taking current energy sources into account and even taking into account manufacturing of electric cars and batteries vs. gas/diesel cars, engines, exhaust systems, transmissions and the associated refining and transportation of fossil fuels. Consider also that there significantly fewer moving parts in an electric vehicle and no exhaust system needed. Even brakes have less wear in an electric car due to regenerative braking that adds energy back the battery instead of burning it off into brake pads.

As for fuel cells, they may find a home in aviation. Possibly in over the road trucking. They're not doing great for cars so far. They take us back to filling stations and expensive fill-ups.

It's a lot more efficient to put the power directly into batteries than to create hydrogen from electrolysis out of water, or from natural gas where most of it comes from now. Once you have hydrogen you have to deal with the smallest molecule on the periodic table, harder to contain and transport. The impact of leaked hydrogen on atmospheric chemistry is also worth looking into as we consider its use in fuel cells.

As the range of battery-based cars continues to increase, fuel cells look less and less like a viable solution. Tesla already has a Model S with 370 mile range, and 400 miles has been mentioned as coming soon. The current model 3 at 310 mile range is a compelling distance car today. Its fast charging ability and the comprehensive and growing Tesla supercharger network makes it even better. Look for the Model Y next year if you want the added utility of a hatch. Up front cost has been the main barrier and it's been heading down, while total cost of operation is already competitive with other alternatives.

As more electric models and options are added, as range increases, as battery and charging tech improves, electric cars are becoming viable for more and more drivers. It's been really cool to see the electric car industry taking off!

Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Losendoskeys] #2995038 06/20/19 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Losendoskeys
LOVE cars, especially this Renault concept.
Don't fool yourself into thinking electric cars are green, they aren't.
Have you seen where the batteries come from?

It's also highly unlikely the distribution network could ever deal with everyone plugging in their cars.

Can't beat a good old V8 - even an American one!


V8 - probably healthy if we're talking about the vegetable juice. :^)

Electric cars are cleaner than gas cars now, and gaining as the grid gets cleaner. Including sourcing batteries. Have you seen where gasoline comes from?

The grid can handle electric cars just as it has handled ovens, refrigerators, air conditioning, etc., by growing as needed.

There are a fair number of misconceptions bouncing around the inter-webs regarding the sustainability of electric cars vs. gas/diesel cars. It's a good idea to check sources carefully.

Things to keep in mind when you hear various claims:

A lot of money is spent on disinformation to protect existing business models. So it pays to look carefully at any sources and check their procedures, their use of data, and their potential conflicts of interest (often hidden in the case of "think tanks" - look at their sources of financial support).

A source that is disinforming the public for their own benefit (not your benefit) will cherrypick data, using only what seems to support their preconceived conclusion. Whereas a source that is truly informing the public will look at all the data and let the chips fall where they may.

Second, look at the advantages and disadvantages of each option with open eyes, from all angles. It's too easy to look for confirmation of our own biases - things/ideas we're used to, things we're invested in.

The data shows that electric motors are far more efficient than gas/diesel engines. Electric motors create no pollution locally and less pollution overall - even taking current energy sources into account and taking into account manufacturing of electric cars, motors and batteries. When looking at gas/diesel cars make sure you account for manufacturing cars, engines, gas tanks, exhaust systems, transmissions, plus the associated drilling, mitigation, refining and transportation of fossil fuels, and the health costs associated with the resulting pollution.

On the maintenance side, there are significantly fewer moving parts in an electric vehicle.

Cars are useful tools and some are more fun than others. Electric cars are an improvement on multiple levels and getting better every year. Test ride one at your own risk, it's hard to go back to gas.

Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Synthoid] #2995047 06/20/19 09:15 PM
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How about electric flight?



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Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Adan] #2995048 06/20/19 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Adan
Easy to see why car enthusiasts will stick with gas until they pry the steering wheel from their cold dead fingers. Gas cars give you more to tinker with, for one. My wife and I are too busy for that. Way too busy. The beauty of owning an electric car is how much you don't have to tinker with it, or think about it at all beyond plugging it in at night.

Most of the environmental harm associated with an electric car is "baked in" with the battery production. By contrast, the environmental harm associate with a gas car occurs in proportion to its use. Drive both cars far enough and those lines will cross and the electric become better than the gas. What's "far enough"? That requires an engineering analyses with lots of assumption built in.


Since it is too obvious that this is the new official keyboard corner car guy thread.. I have a car guy question.. who is the beautiful thing in the Renault video?

My other question: My dealer said my Kia battery replacement is NOT a factory battery but a famous battery brand I cannot think of- ( edit: interstate ) . The price of this battery is in the neighborhood of $270.
Can I get the equivalent battery quality for less? My original battery with 50,000 miles on it ( and a little life left ) was abused by my sitting with engine turned off, key on, listening to long youtube videos through the radio and iPhone. I was surprised it lasted as long as it did, given the misuse. But Kia does not supply the same Kia battery, and want $270 for an interstate I believe!


You don't have ideas, ideas have you
We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement
Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Meta] #2995052 06/20/19 09:44 PM
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stillearning Offline
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Originally Posted by Meta

...look at the advantages and disadvantages of each option with open eyes, from all angles. It's too easy to look for confirmation of our own biases - things/ideas we're used to, things we're invested in...

Agreed.

Not always easy for humans to do, by our very nature. Preconceived notions are often entrenched, thus we seek out that which justifies our positions. Often, opposing evidence has an opposite effect, as it stimulates a defense mechanism for our existing bias.

Rough translation? I am careful when discussing things with my retired psychotherapist wife.

Last edited by stillearning; 06/20/19 09:44 PM.

I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Synthoid] #2995145 06/21/19 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Meta
Originally Posted by Losendoskeys
LOVE cars, especially this Renault concept.
Don't fool yourself into thinking electric cars are green, they aren't.
Have you seen where the batteries come from?

It's also highly unlikely the distribution network could ever deal with everyone plugging in their cars.

Can't beat a good old V8 - even an American one!


V8 - probably healthy if we're talking about the vegetable juice. :^)

Electric cars are cleaner than gas cars now, and gaining as the grid gets cleaner. Including sourcing batteries. Have you seen where gasoline comes from?

The grid can handle electric cars just as it has handled ovens, refrigerators, air conditioning, etc., by growing as needed.

There are a fair number of misconceptions bouncing around the inter-webs regarding the sustainability of electric cars vs. gas/diesel cars. It's a good idea to check sources carefully.

Things to keep in mind when you hear various claims:

A lot of money is spent on disinformation to protect existing business models. So it pays to look carefully at any sources and check their procedures, their use of data, and their potential conflicts of interest (often hidden in the case of "think tanks" - look at their sources of financial support).

A source that is disinforming the public for their own benefit (not your benefit) will cherrypick data, using only what seems to support their preconceived conclusion. Whereas a source that is truly informing the public will look at all the data and let the chips fall where they may.

Second, look at the advantages and disadvantages of each option with open eyes, from all angles. It's too easy to look for confirmation of our own biases - things/ideas we're used to, things we're invested in.

The data shows that electric motors are far more efficient than gas/diesel engines. Electric motors create no pollution locally and less pollution overall - even taking current energy sources into account and taking into account manufacturing of electric cars, motors and batteries. When looking at gas/diesel cars make sure you account for manufacturing cars, engines, gas tanks, exhaust systems, transmissions, plus the associated drilling, mitigation, refining and transportation of fossil fuels, and the health costs associated with the resulting pollution.

On the maintenance side, there are significantly fewer moving parts in an electric vehicle.

Cars are useful tools and some are more fun than others. Electric cars are an improvement on multiple levels and getting better every year. Test ride one at your own risk, it's hard to go back to gas.


To be clear, I'm in the UK and we have a grid more than 50% powered by green sources, however you can't rely on sunshine in the UK!!
You also cannot be serious about the UK grid being capable of taking everyone switching to electric cars at once.
We are borderline now, so adding all those additional batteries to charge would crash it in an instant.
Hydrogen is the way, lithium is too polluting:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20190327-the-tiny-islands-leading-the-way-in-hydrogen-power


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Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Synthoid] #2995189 06/21/19 06:07 PM
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El Lobo Offline
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I drive a 12-year-old Camry Hybrid. Not sure how many miles on it because I never think about that. I think it's over 125,000. It's been the most reliable and lowest maintenance car I've ever owned. My next car will be an electric subcompact that they don't make yet, a Volvo or a BMW or a Mercedes or an Audi -- whichever one is easiest for my aged body to get in and out of and which has the largest cargo area with the rear seat down.

Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Synthoid] #2995192 06/21/19 06:29 PM
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Adan Offline
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Talk about thread drift . . . somehow we went from a futuristic electric muscle car enveloping an attractive blonde vlogger to El Lobo in his 12-year old Camry Hybrid. I have to be honest, I'm feeling a little deflated.


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Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Losendoskeys] #2995234 06/21/19 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Losendoskeys

To be clear, I'm in the UK and we have a grid more than 50% powered by green sources, however you can't rely on sunshine in the UK!!


Hi from the USA! So as you likely know, coal has many disadvantages. One of which is the inability for coal plants to ramp up and down significantly as demand fluctuates. Over here we are dropping coal use relatively rapidly. Natural gas plants can ramp up and down quickly and are better partners for renewables.

Beyond that, the big news in utility-scale solar is the use of utility-scale battery systems. Tesla is one company operating in that market.

Also, you have plenty of wind over there as we do here, and wind can be balanced with solar as well. We also have hydro, and there are clever systems to harness wave energy in the oceans. Solar thermal plants store energy by heating salts. There are many approaches that combine for a more sustainable future. Our utility is now planning to be 100% renewable in electricity production by 2050 and we are ahead of schedule on our previously set plans.

Originally Posted by Losendoskeys
You also cannot be serious about the UK grid being capable of taking everyone switching to electric cars at once.
We are borderline now, so adding all those additional batteries to charge would crash it in an instant.


Heh. Good luck getting everyone to switch to electric cars in an instant. More typical is an adoption curve. The expected adoption curve for electric cars is a standard S curve. We're still near the start of that now.

As we've seen with other major home electrical loads, desirable new-fangled inventions are adopted over time and the grid has time to accommodate the changes. I can't speak for the UK but over here our utilities like to sell electricity, they're up for it.

OTOH, keep in mind the low hanging fruit of energy efficiency that pulls demand down. Incandescent light bulbs put out mostly heat vs. light and are being rapidly phased out. LED lighting is much more efficient. Old tube TVs sucked energy, newer LED flat screens suck less (not the programming though, which may still suck in many cases...). There are heat pump hot water heaters, induction cooking, heat pump/mini-split HVAC, and many other appliances with improved efficiency that are cutting the need for power. Not least is improved insulation and sealing of buildings, which can go along way toward saving energy used to heat and cool our indoor environments.

Originally Posted by Losendoskeys


The claim that lithium is "too polluting" is vague. Compared to what? Our fossil fuel systems are hugely polluting from extraction to transporting to burning it up where we live. As useful as it's been to exploit fossil fuels to do work, at the same time fossil fuels cause many problems.

Keep in mind that lithium is available from multiple sources: salt flats, seawater, mining. The lithium content of a battery is a minor percentage of the battery's mass, BTW. Also, keep in mind that lithium can be reused. New batteries can be manufactured using lithium recycled from old batteries. Batteries also can have a second life after use in cars, for example as battery backup for solar systems, from single home systems to utility scale battery systems.

There is no single way, no magic wand to 100% renewable energy. It takes a combination of approaches to get there. Hydrogen storage of power may make sense in some applications. It won't make sense in every application.

If you have more electricity than you can use (as the article you reference claims about the Orkney Islands), hydrogen via electrolysis offers one way to store energy. There are other ways to store energy as well including directly into the batteries of electric cars - which is more efficient. Fuel cells for ships might be a viable niche, though. FYI there are also ferry ships coming online that use batteries, which again, is more efficient. Since there are markets for excess electricity, if you can access one or more markets it's also more efficient to sell the electricity than to use it for electrolysis.

If you don't have more electricity than you can use, then inefficient options (like electrolysis to generate hydrogen) are less attractive. Hydrogen also has other drawbacks as mentioned earlier. Using it to store and retrieve energy may make sense in some instances, it won't make sense in every instance.

I have no desire to carry tanks of hydrogen in my car. Love my electric car. Batteries work fine.




Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: stillearning] #2995238 06/21/19 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by stillearning
Originally Posted by Meta

...look at the advantages and disadvantages of each option with open eyes, from all angles. It's too easy to look for confirmation of our own biases - things/ideas we're used to, things we're invested in...

Agreed.

Not always easy for humans to do, by our very nature. Preconceived notions are often entrenched, thus we seek out that which justifies our positions. Often, opposing evidence has an opposite effect, as it stimulates a defense mechanism for our existing bias.

Rough translation? I am careful when discussing things with my retired psychotherapist wife.


Heh. Yep, we are interesting creatures. You're probably lucky to be married to someone with deep insights into our human behavior patterns...

Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Adan] #2995260 06/22/19 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Adan
Talk about thread drift . . . somehow we went from a futuristic electric muscle car enveloping an attractive blonde vlogger to El Lobo in his 12-year old Camry Hybrid. I have to be honest, I'm feeling a little deflated.
They have medication for that. wave

Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Synthoid] #2995275 06/22/19 02:38 AM
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I'm all for stopping emissions etc. - but when I see such extraordinary marriages between technology and art, I'm in awe.
Maserati Birdcage 75th, from 2005. Designed by Pininfarina.

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Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Synthoid] #2995276 06/22/19 02:53 AM
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Maserati is beautiful.
My work vehicle is a hybrid Chevy Volt. Most of my business calls are local, and can be done round trip solely on electric. For the ones that aren't, the vehicle automatically switches to the gasoline engine generating electricity to keep the motor and vehicle going. I can see difficulty in very hot or cold climates - using the heat or A/C radically drops the number of miles that the battery gets. Would likely also be that way if used as a personal family vehicle. I wear coat and gloves in winter in it (need anyhow when going outside), and pretend that it is the 1950's when A/C consisted of lowering all the windows. Bought it used, have driven it a bit over 8,000 miles, with a gasoline consumption approximately 155 mpg since buying it. Can't really tell any difference in the electrical bill.
ALL lamps in home have been changed to LED. Shop is florescent lighting. Old heat pump/AC replaced with most efficient unit available. Do have more electric loading than many because of the number of computers, but that is business related. I've thought of putting solar on the roof, but figure it would make it very difficult when shingles have to be replaced; and not sure how long before it pays for itself.

Personal vehicle is 1996 BMW 328 convertible with accessory hardtop. Gets 30 mpg on open roads. Had since it was 4 years old. 5-speed stick. Doesn't get a lot of mileage now, only about 76,000 on it now. Has been well worth the initial price.


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Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Meta] #2995277 06/22/19 03:00 AM
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stillearning Offline
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Originally Posted by Meta

...We also have hydro, and there are clever systems to harness wave energy in the oceans...

Not to mention tides. Rising and falling tides are predictable, clean, and powerful sources of energy waiting to be exploited. Ive always somehow felt this could be our energy source for the future. I know theres been talk for years.

Way back decades ago, when in college, I had a prof who said an efficient way to balance energy between surplus and deficit, was to pump it uphill for storage, then let it flow back down to recover the energy when needed. That was several decades ago, may not be the most efficient method today.


I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
Re: OT: I Want This Car! [Re: Synthoid] #2995281 06/22/19 03:15 AM
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Tom Williams Offline
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Originally Posted by Meta
Despite the best efforts of the coal industry, coal's contribution to the grid has been falling as natural gas and renewables out-compete coal in the marketplace.
Fixed.

Critique aside, I'm loving this discussion, including the chance to see where I might have some things wrong.

According to the bias-confirming propaganda I read, grin wind plants in the USA are only competitive due to heavy government subsidies. Photovoltaics, last I checked, consume a lot of energy, spew out a lot of pollutants, and burn a lot of Chinese coal(!) in the manufacturing process, allegedly a net loss to the environment.

As far as I can tell, the only energy sources that are both clean and efficient are hydroelectric (pretty much tapped out, pardon the pun) and nuclear fission (which creates panic disproportionate to both its actual danger and its electrical output).

For the moment that leaves natural gas (pretty darned good) and coal, which due to hot burning and scrubber technology, was getting close enough to clean that (trying to avoid politics here) it had to be squashed by regulating carbon dioxide. Oh, and oil, which has so many other uses that it would be nice to not have to burn it.

Quoting from memory, someone (Meta again? Not sure...) mentioned the difficulty of ramping up coal-produced electricity on demand. I believe that is 180 degrees wrong, although I am happy to be corrected: If a fossil fuel plant has a couple of disused generators around, it's easy enough to increase production dynamically. Solar energy is greatly reduced on cloudy days; wind fails on windless days; and it's difficult (not impossible) to store hydroelectric energy except by building a massive reservoir and pumping up "spare" water into it for emergencies. So, it seems to me that for dynamic loads, fossil fuel is still more practical, at least in the short run.

My guess is that once we get rid of our irrational fear of nuclear energy (and maybe get rid of the silly treaty that prevents the creation of breeder reactors), we will be able to generate all the power we need without having to burn anything at all.


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