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Was I right or wrong? #2989406 05/13/19 02:32 PM
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surfergirl Offline OP
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Gigs are hard to come by here, so we have to make the best of every opportunity. We have been best friends forever, and have rarely disagreed, but during the Christmas holidays we had a gig scheduled and were offered another one for more money. I wanted to keep our commitment to the first gig for less money, everyone else wanted to go for more money. There was no contract but I was always taught that your word meant something. I eventually did win, but should I have let majority rule or was I right to hold out to do what I felt was the right thing.


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Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: surfergirl] #2989407 05/13/19 02:40 PM
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There's a lot more to consider in answering that question than "is it right - yes or no?"

Cancellations can happen for any number of reasons, and if it was a bar gig, don't think for a second that they wouldn't hesitate to cancel a band.

That said, of course you want to build a good relationship. It also depends on how far in advance you cancel. If it's 2 months in advance, they have plenty of time to find a replacement. If it's the day before, you're causing them a hardship.

When I was in a fairly popular local bands, we would fill up our calendar a year in advance with bar gigs, usually on a regular rotation. But as private parties and weddings popped up, we would cancel the bar gigs as needed, always giving them plenty of advance notice. We were high enough in depend and did well enough when they played there that we held the cards and they'd take us when they would get us.

I would NEVER cancel a wedding, private party, festival, or casino.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: J. Dan] #2989413 05/13/19 03:06 PM
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I think you made the right decision Surfer Girl. Hopefully the band will discuss the issue and make a rule to honor all future commitments. There are legitimate reasons to cancel a gig if someone gets sick or hurt in an accident, health issues, etc. In your area where gigs are hard to come by, it's important to establish a good reputation even if it means less money on a gig or two. You would expect the establishment to hold up their end of the bargain as well. There is nothing wrong with calling the establishment well in advance to see if the date and time can be changed if a scheduling issue comes up. +1 on honoring your word... cool


Take care, Larryz
Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: Larryz] #2989416 05/13/19 03:23 PM
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I agree with larryz. I would not even give a change like this a second thought on short notice. Jim

Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: jimmac] #2989427 05/13/19 04:02 PM
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Within six months, the money made at either gig will be gone. Your reputation as a band will still have to serve you. You made the right choice, and so did your band.


"For instance" is not proof.
Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: surfergirl] #2989468 05/13/19 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: surfergirl
There was no contract but I was always taught that your word meant something. I eventually did win, but should I have let majority rule or was I right to hold out to do what I felt was the right thing.


I think integrity is way more important than the measly few bucks extra you might have received putting money first and your personal integrity last.

I applaud you surfergirl. Money ain't that hard to come by but your personal integrity is a jewel, a hidden jewel maybe, but a jewel none the less.

Plus you might have taught your band-mates a decent lesson, holding out so you could keep your word. All in all a win win, and very little loss.


dbm
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Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: desertbluesman] #2989491 05/13/19 11:00 PM
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Your reputation will ultimately make (or cost) you more money than a single gig. Always be professional, and you’ll always be treated like one.

Example 1: I know of a band that was big in D/FW back in the 1990s. A lot of people who saw them play thought they were on the cusp of national success. I saw them at SXSW, and I agreed. But they supposedly had a bad gigging rep around town: showing up late, playing over their allotted time, cutting shows short, canceling at the last minute, or simply not showing up. They ultimately DID get success at the national level...many years later after starting over, moving to another state, and becoming someone else’s backup band.

Example 2: I got to see BÖC playing in a bar in Austin, Texas in the mid-1990s. The opening band were Austin locals, and the middle act was from Houston that had just signed a major label contract. During the excellent show from the openers, a tall, shirtless, fat drunk guy in a sheepskin vest who was standing next to me was hitting on my friend, and nearly falling over me in the process . Then- surprise, surprise- he got up on stage to take up a position at the keyboards for the Houstonians. The band was generally pretty good, but all set long, HE was off key, off tempo, and even played portions of the wrong songs.

I have some of that band’s CDs: no keyboard player.

Last edited by Dannyalcatraz; 05/13/19 11:01 PM.

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Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: Dannyalcatraz] #2989498 05/13/19 11:43 PM
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Surfergirl, I'm proud to be associated with you, even in the minimal way of visiting the same website. There aren't enough people who value their integrity when it costs them. Thank you for being one of them.


Always remember that you�re unique. Just like everyone else.



Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: picker] #2989520 05/14/19 08:39 AM
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I salute your integrity too.

SOMEbody's got to take charge and be the "leader". And if your band lacks an actual manager, then choose someone to handle all the business end and can do so without their musical input suffering. And I'm guessing YOU'RE that person! smile

An Uncle of mine used to paraphrase---

"Nice guys might finish last, but they finish BEST, and in better shape." wink
Whitefang

Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: picker] #2989523 05/14/19 09:16 AM
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Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Short answer: you were right.

MUCH EXCELLENT observation in the posts above.


Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~
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Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: Caevan O'Shite] #2989544 05/14/19 11:55 AM
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DocPate Offline
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Surfer Girl, absolutely correct decision. Reminds me of the son: "You've Got To Stand For Something" by Aaron Tippin (Country)


Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: surfergirl] #2989548 05/14/19 12:35 PM
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"To thine own self be true and thou canst be false to no man".
-Wm. Shakespeare


If you play cool, you are cool.
Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: Fred_C] #2989572 05/14/19 03:18 PM
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surfergirl Offline OP
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Thanks everyone for the feedback. The guys understood it was the right thing. We used it as a learning experience. Better communications between us. I was still operating like we were still in school and kinda accepting what was offered instead of negotiating.


Jenny S.
Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: surfergirl] #2989629 05/15/19 02:24 AM
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Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Originally Posted By: surfergirl
Thanks everyone for the feedback. The guys understood it was the right thing. We used it as a learning experience. Better communications between us. I was still operating like we were still in school and kinda accepting what was offered instead of negotiating.


That's a whole skill-set to be developed in itself! I'm certainly not terribly well versed in that, myself.


Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~
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Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: Fred_C] #2989640 05/15/19 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
"To thine own self be true and thou canst be false to no man".
-Wm. Shakespeare


Usually good advice, but take it with a grain of salt( 'cause it depends on where you are....)

Every time I'VE tried that here, I got a lot of grief. wink
Whitefang

Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: whitefang] #2989648 05/15/19 08:57 AM
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Fred_C Offline
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No comment.


If you play cool, you are cool.
Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: Fred_C] #2989651 05/15/19 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
"To thine own self be true and thou canst be false to no man".
-Wm. Shakespeare


Indeed. Troof.


Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~
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Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: Fred_C] #2989807 05/16/19 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
No comment.


None needed. Just spittin' out some sour grapes is all.... wink
Whitefang

Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: whitefang] #2993793 06/11/19 12:35 PM
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Haven't been here for a while & time is, as Booker T once said, tight so I only glossed the previous responses.

Here are my relevant thoughts:
1 / Always honor commitments in business.
To quote further from a pop music philosopher (Allan Toussaint) "you might meet 'em on the way back down".

2 / There is often, however, a way to arrange compromises or rescheduling, even near the last minute.
Never fail to try that.

3 /This may be the most important:
Bands seldom work well as democracies.In the same way that some will be more talented as players or composers than others, some will be better at handling aspects such as stagecraft, schedule details, legal & biz concepts, etc.
Not all bands need follow the same template but there should be prior arrangements as to who is best at what.
If need be those things should be set in writing.

--------------------------------------

BTW, glad yer doing well, SG !


d=halfnote
Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: surfergirl] #2993807 06/11/19 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: surfergirl
Gigs are hard to come by here, so we have to make the best of every opportunity. We have been best friends forever, and have rarely disagreed, but during the Christmas holidays we had a gig scheduled and were offered another one for more money. I wanted to keep our commitment to the first gig for less money, everyone else wanted to go for more money. There was no contract but I was always taught that your word meant something. I eventually did win, but should I have let majority rule or was I right to hold out to do what I felt was the right thing.


Simple rule, if you're offering any kind of service for hire, and yes, people view Musicians as service people, when they're hiring you for a party - ALWAYS honor your commitments.

Whoever calls you first, you stick with that commitment, because your word does matter, especially in the reverse. What do I mean by that? Well, if people get the idea that you're likely to cancel a commitment anytime you get a better offer, no one is going to want to hire you to begin with. Once you get that reputation, it doesn't matter how well you play, you won't get work. "Oh, don't call them, they cancelled on my friend's birthday/graduation/wedding! Call my friend so-&-so, her band is always looking for work, they're good, and they'll show up!"

Keep your word, then show up and do your best, and people will not only call you back, they'll tell others to hire you.

To support my Music habit, I work as a bartender/server-for-hire. I've never canceled on a catering client to go play a Music event, nor have I ever canceled on a Music gig to do a catering event, and in my case, I make serious money for catering. First weekend this month, I turned down two high-paying catering jobs, because I was already committed to play a benefit concert, for no pay; the benefit made a nice bit of money for a local youth shelter, however, so my day was well spent.


"Monsters are real, and Ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." Stephen King

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Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: Winston Psmith] #2993815 06/11/19 03:26 PM
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surfergirl Offline OP
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First to address the business question. I am good with finance and Michael, our bass player, is really good at other aspects of business. That is our framework from now on. We were reluctant to address this before because we are a couple, and were afraid the others might think it was a power grab. They didn't, in fact they were relieved the Michael would handle the business part.

We all agree that will always keep our commitments, We all have jobs which come first, unlikely less we can make arrangements for someone to cover for us.

We would always play free for charity. Not only is it the right thing to do, it's good PR.

Last edited by surfergirl; 06/11/19 03:29 PM.

Jenny S.
Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: surfergirl] #2993849 06/11/19 08:57 PM
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Before you agree to play for free for a charity, do your homework and make sure that the charity is actually spending most of the money they take in for helping the intended recipients of the charity. For instance, my friend used to put on a big fundraising event for a charity that raised about $50,000 from that event. I don't want to identify the charity, or what they do, but I found out that charity keeps about 90% of the money they take in for "administrative expenses". In other words, the people who run and work for the charity get 90% of all the money. My friend isn't employed by the charity, but he uses the event to further his business and political career.

A couple I know named Robert and Lori run a charity to help find missing children. They don't keep 90% of the money, they keep it ALL. So, before you go to help out a charity, make sure that it's a charity that helps others, instead of themselves.


I rock; therefore, I am.
Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: Winston Psmith] #2993871 06/12/19 12:53 AM
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Way to live your words, WPS!


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Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: Sharkman] #2993893 06/12/19 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: Sharkman
Before you agree to play for free for a charity, do your homework and make sure that the charity is actually spending most of the money they take in for helping the intended recipients of the charity. For instance, my friend used to put on a big fundraising event for a charity that raised about $50,000 from that event. I don't want to identify the charity, or what they do, but I found out that charity keeps about 90% of the money they take in for "administrative expenses". In other words, the people who run and work for the charity get 90% of all the money. My friend isn't employed by the charity, but he uses the event to further his business and political career.

A couple I know named Robert and Lori run a charity to help find missing children. They don't keep 90% of the money, they keep it ALL. So, before you go to help out a charity, make sure that it's a charity that helps others, instead of themselves.


________ THAT IS DESPICABLEmad

________


Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~
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Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: Caevan O'Shite] #2993910 06/12/19 11:09 AM
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Yes Caevan, it really is despicable. And that is why I wrote about it, to remind people to make sure who you're dealing with before you give them your time or money. There are a lot of good reputable charities out there that deserve all the help they can get. And there are a few rotten apples to watch out for.


I rock; therefore, I am.
Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: Sharkman] #2993936 06/12/19 02:38 PM
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surfergirl Offline OP
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Very good advise/warning, and if the situation ever comes up we will be cautious.


Jenny S.
Re: Was I right or wrong? [Re: surfergirl] #2993962 06/12/19 04:28 PM
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Playing a charity for free can be very rewarding. Some of us local musicians did a small club Sunday afternoon jam a couple of months ago and raised $4 grand for the fire victims up in Northern California. Most small local charities are legit... cool


Take care, Larryz

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