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Billy Joel vs Elton John ... Who's a better player?


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The Beach Boys were absolutely in no way even a single iota named in a way that had a single thing to do with the Beatles, and you should banish that factoid from your arsenal forever. The Beatles were a regional band with a bad local reputation in a small town in a small country 5,000 miles away when the Beach Boys got their name. Their only appearance on a record was as "The Beat Brothers." They hadn't even recorded their first UK single when the Beach Boys released their first record, let alone been heard by a single person in the US, and even if they had, no one would have known at that point what the band was eventually to become. If anything they would have needed to piggyback off of other groups (as they sort of did by naming themselves after the Crickets).

 

That's a non-starter as an idea.

 

Anyway, any band famous enough to spur sales of another group whose name started with the same letter, would be famous enough not to be confused for some other group whose name started with the same letter. Or else why aren't people mistakenly buying Beach Boys records instead of Beyonce instead of Bruno Mars instead of Backstreet Boys, etc etc.

 

I am wondering if you are not thinking of the story of the Bee Gees, who were also managed by Brian Epstein, and whose first single was sent to radio stations with a band name not easily visible with the hope that DJs would hear the harmonies and think it was a new record by the Beatles?

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It's pretty hard to come up with an original name. There was a period of maybe ten years or so, when almost every new band had a number in their name (Spaceman 3, Blink 182, etc. etc.) mostly because it decreased the chance of there being some defunct band no one had never heard of in some far-away location who would come out of the woodwork to sue (as happened with The (English) Beat and Yaz(oo), though the latter was an even weirder situation as it was the Yazoo Kazoo Band, I think in Texas).

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Hey, how about we talk about what makes the styles of these two pianists different, and have some fun discussing what we like about them?

 

My personal piano style developed in large part from learning songs by these two artists. They both have similar backgrounds: classical instruction at a young age that they weren't entirely committed to, but cannibalized for their own singer-songwriter styles, with a little teenage bar-band playing thrown in for good measure.

 

To me, Elton has a more recognizable "signature" style: lots of improvised arpeggiation and little flourishes in the right hand, with a rhythmic, back-and-forth motion in the left hand on octaves or fifths. I think it's especially noticeable on performances of his 70s classics from the last 10-20 years, the songs that are so in his blood that he can play around with the motion within the chords (even on something iconic like "Tiny Dancer") and it still sounds like the song you know. This isn't the only thing he's capable of, but that, along with a little Leon Russell swagger on more rocking tunes, would describe his playing style on a great deal of his catalogue.

 

Billy Joel's playing tends to be stricter rhythmically, by my estimation (whether that's due to his personal playing style or his chosen type of rhythm section players is debatable). Even something with a lot of arpeggiation, like "Summer, Highland Falls," seems to follow a much stricter "click" than the washy syncopation that Elton would imbue a similar tune. Then there's a lot of stuff like "Big Shot," parts of "Italian Restaurant," or "Stilletto" that have chunky right hand chords and solid, downbeat-heavy left hand parts that are simple in their construction but surprisingly difficult to coordinate. I think those sparse but rhythmically intricate two-hand interdependence motives are more of a hallmark of Billy, for sure.

 

They both bear the influence of Ray Charles, Jerry Lee Lewis, etc, but I think Elton John weirdly (being a Brit) has more of an "Americana" sound in his playing, even in some of his more pop-oriented tunes, because of his deep love for The Band and Leon Russell. Billy Joel's feel tends to strike me as more, well, "New York": a little more Phil Spector, a little more urban jazz, a little more New Wave and 80s stadium rock later on.

 

Now, a lot of the Piano Man record has an Americana bent ("Traveling Prayer" being an obvious example), but it's more from the arrangements that include fiddle, banjo, and brushed drums (Billy doesn't actually play piano until one of the last verses of "Traveling Prayer," and when he does, there are those super tight sixteenth note runs!). Whereas on Tumbleweed Connection, Elton's piano playing is a big part of what gives the record its greasy Southern and Western vibe. The way he attacks the chords and slurs between them in songs like "Ballad of a Well-Known Gun" and "Burn Down the Mission" doesn't have that same rhythmic precision, but it has buckets and buckets of feel.

 

Interested to hear the observations of others!

 

Samuel B. Lupowitz

Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.

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......

[video:youtube]NfKsH_g39Rc

.....

 

That performance is outstanding. To play piano like that while singing a lead vocal blows me away.

Does anyone know if what we hear was the unadulterated live performance, as opposed to something that was enhanced later?

 

Depends on which version you listen to. Gus Dudgeon's remix of that record from the '90s has some delay and chorus effects that were added in later, for some reason. If you find the original vinyl (or a bootleg of the concert as it was aired on the radio), it's pretty much what happened in the room, so I'm told!

Samuel B. Lupowitz

Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.

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To me, Elton has a more recognizable "signature" style: lots of improvised arpeggiation and little flourishes in the right hand, with a rhythmic, back-and-forth motion in the left hand on octaves or fifths. I think it's especially noticeable on performances of his 70s classics from the last 10-20 years, the songs that are so in his blood that he can play around with the motion within the chords (even on something iconic like "Tiny Dancer") and it still sounds like the song you know. This isn't the only thing he's capable of, but that, along with a little Leon Russell swagger on more rocking tunes, would describe his playing style on a great deal of his catalogue.

 

Billy Joel's playing tends to be stricter rhythmically, by my estimation (whether that's due to his personal playing style or his chosen type of rhythm section players is debatable). Even something with a lot of arpeggiation, like "Summer, Highland Falls," seems to follow a much stricter "click" than the washy syncopation that Elton would imbue a similar tune. Then there's a lot of stuff like "Big Shot," parts of "Italian Restaurant," or "Stilletto" that have chunky right hand chords and solid, downbeat-heavy left hand parts that are simple in their construction but surprisingly difficult to coordinate. I think those sparse but rhythmically intricate two-hand interdependence motives are more of a hallmark of Billy, for sure.

 

They both bear the influence of Ray Charles, Jerry Lee Lewis, etc, but I think Elton John weirdly (being a Brit) has more of an "Americana" sound in his playing, even in some of his more pop-oriented tunes, because of his deep love for The Band and Leon Russell. Billy Joel's feel tends to strike me as more, well, "New York": a little more Phil Spector, a little more urban jazz, a little more New Wave and 80s stadium rock later on.

 

Now, a lot of the Piano Man record has an Americana bent ("Traveling Prayer" being an obvious example), but it's more from the arrangements that include fiddle, banjo, and brushed drums (Billy doesn't actually play piano until one of the last verses of "Traveling Prayer," and when he does, there are those super tight sixteenth note runs!). Whereas on Tumbleweed Connection, Elton's piano playing is a big part of what gives the record its greasy Southern and Western vibe. The way he attacks the chords and slurs between them in songs like "Ballad of a Well-Known Gun" and "Burn Down the Mission" doesn't have that same rhythmic precision, but it has buckets and buckets of feel.

 

Interested to hear the observations of others!

 

100% agree, and a more in-depth explanation than my short sentences posted above.

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The ragged, whisky-tinged, slightly-off-the-beat feel of the Tumbleweeds Connection album was a large part of what made it so compelling for me. The sloppiness doesn't detract from the artistry, it is part of it. I've spent countless hours listening to that album and am still inspired by it. Tumbleweed preceded the work for which Elton is known (though I think Amoreena was the closing track to Dog Day Afternoon, and gets referenced in the movie Rocket Man). None of Billy Joel's piano work has affected me that way. It just doesn't seem conceivable he would let himself play that way.

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I saw Elton John at MSG in 1976 at the height of his pop stardom. Although I liked some of his stuff and had a few albums, I only went because my friend's little sister and her friends gave me a ticket to drive them down there. But I was blown away. Despite the theatrics and pop trappings... this band jammed!!! I actually found the show online some years back and was even more impressed.There was actually Phish like atonal jams, a Grateful Dead like Drums/percussion/electronica solo, all sorts of extended improvised jams and deep cuts. Opened the show with a 12 minute Hercules (not exactly a hit song) that included a solo piano interlude). Encored with "Tell Me When The Whistle Blows" (w/ The Harlem Choir) a favorite of mine... a deep cut from a rather overlooked album at the time. And hit all sorts of crazy highs and places in between. I saw many great shows at MSG but that place never bounced and swayed like it did at the show closer Saturday Night's Alright For Fighting." An absolutely mind boggling show, incredible playing, but just never imagined Elton John would take that crowd to some of those places.
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Not going to get into the vs thing, but I love Elton's live performance on this tune. I wish he had written more like it:

 

[video:youtube]NfKsH_g39Rc

 

Best,

 

Geoff

 

Had not heard that. Im impressed. Has he other tunes like that?

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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Not going to get into the vs thing, but I love Elton's live performance on this tune. I wish he had written more like it:

 

[video:youtube]NfKsH_g39Rc

 

Best,

 

Geoff

 

Had not heard that. Im impressed. Has he other tunes like that?

 

Yeah that's what I was trying to say! Definitely has other tunes and performances like that. That entire album is great. Just a trio. They JAMMED! He had come over to play in US on strength of "Your Song" and everyone was expecting the usual singer songwriter of the day, ala James Taylor etc... but this trio blew minds and expectations.

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[video:youtube]

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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Not going to get into the vs thing, but I love Elton's live performance on this tune. I wish he had written more like it:

 

[video:youtube]NfKsH_g39Rc

 

Best,

 

Geoff

 

Had not heard that. Im impressed. Has he other tunes like that?

I'm not aware of any, but then my tastes began moving more toward progressive rock and jazz fusion as Elton John seemed to gravitate more toward pop; so I'm only aware of his hits after his first couple of albums. Of his hits, the only thing remotely like "Take Me To The Pilot" that I can think of is "Honky Cat;" and that really is only remotely like it.

 

In addition to "Take Me To The Pilot," the whole 11-17-70 live album is worth a listen, in my opinion. The band was tight, and Elton John gave a great vocal and piano performance. Not all the songs are in the same vein, but they're all strong songs.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

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Having seen both of them together and separately, and coming from the viewpoint that I'm much more of a Billy Joel fan than Elton John...

 

Elton John is hands-down the better player. All-around, technique, styles, versatility...

When I first went to see them together I was mainly going to see Billy Joel. Elton John impressed the Hell out of me.

A few years ago I saw Elton solo in Portland, Maine, as he was warming up for a big tour. Just Elton, no back-up, no effects. Again, I was even MORE impressed.

 

I might think that Billy Joel has more improvisation chops than Elton, but that's just an impression - Elton doesn't take a lot of improvised solos.

 

Of course, Bruce Hornsby blows them both off the stage - check out a solo show with Bruce sometime if you want to leave with your head spinning.

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I don't think he's really in the same category as those two, but yeah: Hornsby is the real deal. So much so that when I see him I always come away wondering why didn't do more "real" playing in his pop tunes. He can straight up blow.

 

The legend is that the Bonnie Raitt tune was a first-take wonder, both for him and for Raitt. Incredible talent on that recording.

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I saw Bruce in 1986 standing room only for the Way it Is. Live I didn't like it as much as the bass for that song was live and the drums didn't have that hypnotic effect but he is incredible to watch. I saw him a couple of times after that. I just felt after the first few albums I lost interest. That said he is a monster player. I think he can reach a 13th with his hand. He also shot hoops and used to pass a basketball onstage with John Molo the drummer, I think that was in 1988 on tour.

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Not going to get into the vs thing, but I love Elton's live performance on this tune. I wish he had written more like it:

 

[video:youtube]NfKsH_g39Rc

 

Best,

 

Geoff

 

Had not heard that. Im impressed. Has he other tunes like that?

[video:youtube]MJHp5dO7UaA

 

Samuel B. Lupowitz

Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.

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Not going to get into the vs thing, but I love Elton's live performance on this tune. I wish he had written more like it:

 

[video:youtube]NfKsH_g39Rc

 

Best,

 

Geoff

 

 

 

Had not heard that. Im impressed. Has he other tunes like that?

 

This entire album is of similar quality, and all trio. There are a couple of other tunes stylistically similar, "Bad Side of the Moon" comes to mind, as well as a little bit of down-tempo stuff, and a cover of Honkey Tonk Woman. IF you are not a fan of the gaudy production (I enjoy that too) then this is the no-frills rock piano album by him you might enjoy.

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Does anyone know if what we hear was the unadulterated live performance, as opposed to something that was enhanced later?

It was originally a live radio broadcast, and apparently was circulating as a bootleg before they decided to release the album. So while there may have been EQ and such, everything is just as they played/sang it.

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I've seen the Billy and Elton show a couple of times. IMHO Billy is the more pyrotechnic rock player. When Elton stretches out and solos though, it was clear to me he's more sophisticated harmonically. His understanding of New Orleans-style playing is unmistakable, too.

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I say Elton, although Billy is more versatile in style. But I say that having only heard Elton play Elton songs. I"ve heard Billy play jazz, classical, ragtime.

 

This thread reminds me of this clip from a Japanese show. One would naturally, and automatically, assume Rick Wakeman would beat Mike Lindup in a simple technical drill. Because he"s Rick Wakeman. Not so.

 

[video:youtube]

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