Jump to content


Please note: You can easily log in to MPN using your Facebook account!

Billy Joel vs Elton John ... Who's a better player?


Recommended Posts



A Duh! (good thread BTW) ...sorry about all this I posted here but I couldn't helps meself!

 

The Metaphysics of Quality (MoQ) is a theory of reality introduced in Robert Pirsig's philosophical novel, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974) and expanded in Lila: An Inquiry into Morals (1991). The MoQ incorporates facets of Sophism, East Asian philosophy, pragmatism, the work of F. S. C. Northrop, and indigenous American Indian philosophy. Pirsig argues that the MoQ is a better lens through which to view reality than the subjective/objective mindset that Pirsig attributes to Aristotle. The book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance references the Sanskrit doctrine of Tat Tvam Asi or "Thou art that" which asserts an 'existential monism'* as opposed to the subjectobject dualism.[1]

 

Also: "Tat Tvam Asi, a Sanskrit phrase, translated variously as "Thou art that," is one of the kyas in Vedantic Sanatana Dharma. It originally occurs in the Chandogya Upanishad 6.8.7, in the dialogue between Uddalaka and his son vetaketu; it appears at the end of a section, and is repeated at the end of the subsequent sections as a refrain. The meaning of this saying is that the Self - in its original, pure, primordial state - is wholly or partially identifiable or identical with the Ultimate Reality that is the ground and origin of all phenomena."

 

Robert Persig's - Metaphysics of Quality (Wikipedia)

 

 

 CP-50, YC 73,  FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, Kurzweil SP6, XK-3, CX-3, Hammond XK-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not going to get into the vs thing, but I love Elton's live performance on this tune. I wish he had written more like it:

 

[video:youtube]NfKsH_g39Rc

 

Best,

 

Geoff

Indeed.

I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

......

[video:youtube]NfKsH_g39Rc

.....

 

That performance is outstanding. To play piano like that while singing a lead vocal blows me away.

Does anyone know if what we hear was the unadulterated live performance, as opposed to something that was enhanced later?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder how significant is it that they both have names which consist of 5 and 4 letters, and that both surnames start with Jo.... ??????

 

In fact, Elton John's name is actually nearly 50% Joel. Could this low key use of the letters J & O be the secret to their success??

 

I am not superstitious, obviously, but In future, I would appreciate it if you would address me as Knuck Jole..... :keys2:

 

"Turn your fingers into a dust rag and keep them keys clean!" ;) Bluzeyone
Link to comment
Share on other sites

......

[video:youtube]NfKsH_g39Rc

.....

 

That performance is outstanding. To play piano like that while singing a lead vocal blows me away.

Does anyone know if what we hear was the unadulterated live performance, as opposed to something that was enhanced later?

I'd be very surprised if it had been, considering the limited technology at the time. I certainly don't know of any case in which that happened in the early '70s.

 

I remember woodshedding while listening to that album at the time, doing my best to cop Elton John's licks. Great stuff.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

My Blue Someday appears on Apple Music | Spotify | YouTube | Amazon

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lots of bands in the 60's deliberately chose names that would place their albums near best-selling artists such as The Beatles. This is real; not a joke or fake news. I always suspected it, but it has been owned up to, by several of the guilty parties (such as Beach Boys) over the years... :-)

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1,

Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Better is subjective, correct? :idk

 

Recognizing that Elton >> BJ is pretty objective. I mean, how could anyone see it differently?

 

:snax:

The baiting I do is purely for entertainment value. Please feel free to ignore it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lots of bands in the 60's deliberately chose names that would place their albums near best-selling artists such as The Beatles. This is real; not a joke or fake news. I always suspected it, but it has been owned up to, by several of the guilty parties (such as Beach Boys) over the years... :-)
Hmm. Beach Boys were formed and had hits before the Beatles existed.
These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lots of bands in the 60's deliberately chose names that would place their albums near best-selling artists such as The Beatles. This is real; not a joke or fake news. I always suspected it, but it has been owned up to, by several of the guilty parties (such as Beach Boys) over the years... :-)
"Owned up" perhaps it was just someone making a joke? The Beatles formed in 1960. The Beach Boys formed in 1961. The first Beatles record was released in 1962. I doubt the band members even heard of The Beatles in 1961 let alone considered they would gain anything by being placed near them in a record store. Supposedly the song "Surfin" inspired their choice for the band's name.

 

History of The Beach Boys

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Better is subjective, correct? :idk

 

Recognizing that Elton >> BJ is pretty objective. I mean, how could anyone see it differently?

 

:snax:

 

but the younger generation needs an answer. Who is the best ? And the very best while we are at it. This is what Facebook is for.

Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ?

My Soundcloud with many originals:

[70's Songwriter]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

but the younger generation needs an answer. Who is the best ? And the very best while we are at it.

 

The only good thing about "who is best" it will get some people who don't do enough listening to hopefully to check out more of the names mentioned. But on the bad side it might limit someone who just things I'll listen to the "best" and doesn't open their ears up to other approaches.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not going to get into the vs thing, but I love Elton's live performance on this tune. I wish he had written more like it:

 

[video:youtube]NfKsH_g39Rc

 

Best,

 

Geoff

 

 

 

 

 

I would take this performance over any Billy Joel song. In fact a drummer and bass player friend of mine have discussed covering this entire record. But we'd add an additional vocalist.

Overall on piano I guess Billy has a bigger vocabulary and knows enough jazz to bring it into what he does. Elton is funkier, and putting piano aside, I prefer his writing and his singing.

 

Moog The One, VV 64 EP, Wurlies 200A 140 7300, Forte 7, Mojo 61, OB-6, Prophet 6, Polaris, Hammond A100, Farfisa VIP, ,Young Chang 6', Voyager, E7 Clav, Midiboard, Linnstrument, Seaboard
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A Duh! (good thread BTW) ...sorry about all this I posted here but I couldn't helps meself!

 

The Metaphysics of Quality (MoQ) is a theory of reality introduced in Robert Pirsig's philosophical novel, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974) and expanded in Lila: An Inquiry into Morals (1991). The MoQ incorporates facets of Sophism, East Asian philosophy, pragmatism, the work of F. S. C. Northrop, and indigenous American Indian philosophy. Pirsig argues that the MoQ is a better lens through which to view reality than the subjective/objective mindset that Pirsig attributes to Aristotle. The book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance references the Sanskrit doctrine of Tat Tvam Asi or "Thou art that" which asserts an 'existential monism'* as opposed to the subjectobject dualism.[1]

 

Also: "Tat Tvam Asi, a Sanskrit phrase, translated variously as "Thou art that," is one of the kyas in Vedantic Sanatana Dharma. It originally occurs in the Chandogya Upanishad 6.8.7, in the dialogue between Uddalaka and his son vetaketu; it appears at the end of a section, and is repeated at the end of the subsequent sections as a refrain. The meaning of this saying is that the Self - in its original, pure, primordial state - is wholly or partially identifiable or identical with the Ultimate Reality that is the ground and origin of all phenomena."

 

Robert Persig's - Metaphysics of Quality (Wikipedia)

 

Oh crap, is that what those books were about? :pop:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How could we really measure who is better? Give them a scale exam? Maybe give them two days each to learn a solo piano piece of music that is unfamiliar to them both ? How about put them in playing situations outside of their comfort zones ? Perhaps a jazz trio, a salsa band, a fusion band? My guess is Billy Joel would fair better in such a challenge but I actually enjoy Eltons music much more. Both are great at what they do in their own right and I dont listen to them as just pianists but rather as unique musical artists.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmmm... fun thread! I see alot of folks are enjoying the absurdity of the question.

 

In my 20's I was prone to these kinds of discussions. And then I learned about General Semantics created by Alfred Korzybski.

 

Basically, there's the atomic level, something so complex and multi-faceted that there's difficulty even describing it with words. It's hard to know what we don't know. Science comes the closest, but as the last 100 years has born out, there's still lots to learn, and the pile of words to describe anything is beyond encyclopedic and by definition, falls short. Words are words, not the actual thing.

 

As you move to further levels of 'abstraction', trying to come up with summations of that impossible to nail-down-with-words original event, you eventually move to opinions and judgements, which are so far removed from the original subject at hand that it's easy to manipulate with labels.

 

Seen in this way, "better than", an opinion/judgement, is nonsense if not qualified with, "In my opinion...".

 

The fun bit here is to realize how you can start with an opinion/judgement, and justify your conclusion by going down the ladder of abstraction to the actual thing being described, pulling out a good example that supports your opinion, and then jumping back to your conclusion and declaring, "See, this proves it!".

 

Literally any conclusion can be supported/justified by jumping around the levels of abstraction willy-nilly. Talking in generalities- there needs to be grade school level teaching to warn of the inherent folly, esp for idealistic young people!

Numa Piano X73 /// Kawai ES920 /// Casio CT-X5000 /// Yamaha EW425

Yamaha Melodica and Alto Recorder

QSC K8.2 // JBL Eon One Compact // Soundcore Motion Boom Plus 

Win10 laptop i7 8GB // iPad Pro 9.7" 32GB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Billy is better than Elton, then he's better than Steve Winwood, too. Why? Because in an interview, Steve was asked who was the better keyboard player, him or Elton. He replied that he was a better organ and EP player, but that Elton was a better piano player, due to his mastery of the piano's dynamic and percussive qualities. So therefore, Billy is "better" than Steve, in a paper-covers-rock kind of way.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Billy is better than Elton, then he's better than Steve Winwood, too. Why? Because in an interview, Steve was asked who was the better keyboard player, him or Elton. He replied that he was a better organ and EP player, but that Elton was a better piano player, due to his mastery of the piano's dynamic and percussive qualities. So therefore, Billy is "better" than Steve, in a paper-covers-rock kind of way.

 

That's it really.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tori Amos. :cool:

 

But, between the two J's of rock piano . . . I don't know. If I had to pick one I wish I played like, it's Elton.

 

Billy Joel is the guy who will show up, play the thing clean, polished, and stay between the lines (and do a damn good job), while Elton John will play the emotions, push the edges, and take the thing in a direction you maybe didn't expect.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dunno but although he hasn't done it in years, Elton used to do a thing back in the 70's and 80's where, for "Benny and the Jets" he would crawl under the piano, sticking his head out under the bench and play an insanely sophisticated and raucous improvised solo from there, backwards upside down and blind. I was pretty friggin' impressed.

 

Then when I saw them both on one of their "Face to Face" co-tours in the '90s, they would do a segment where each would do an uncanny impression of each other's piano playing where any musical layman could get it and recognize how they were imitating each other's style.....unbelievable.

 

I'd say they're both pretty good.

Rich Forman

Yamaha MOXF8, Korg Kronos 2-61, Roland Fantom X7, Ferrofish B4000+ organ module, Roland VR-09, EV ZLX12P, K&M Spider Pro stand,

Yamaha S80, Korg Trinity Plus

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I gave Beach Boys as just one example, because they're the closest in the alphabet. Lots of alternate histories out there; including from the band members themselves. And bands don't always start with the name they're known for (e.g. The Who). Memories also fade.

 

The Byrds is another example. Producers and record executives have stated this in interviews. Probably The Birds as well (short-lived but great band, whose members went on to bigger things).

 

Anyway, the point was just that it is quite common for an artist, on their own or from label pressure, to pick a name that will make them more likely to be seen by a casual shopper.

 

But picking a name that has some similarities but is not close in the alphabet, would have a bigger impact on radio and in media attention than in record store shopping trips. Still, I can see how there might have been some attempt to link the two musicians, except the time frame doesn't seem to support that, just as someone suggested with Beach Boys vs. Beatles (I'd have to check when they changed their name to Beach Boys though).

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1,

Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyway, the point was just that it is quite common for an artist, on their own or from label pressure, to pick a name that will make them more likely to be seen by a casual shopper.

 

But picking a name that has some similarities but is not close in the alphabet, would have a bigger impact on radio and in media attention than in record store shopping trips.

The Eagles sounds a lot like the Beatles but also starts with E like Elton. And it's similar to the Byrds. Then there's Flock of Seagulls. And the Monkees. The Animals. The Stray Cats. Three Dog Night? Phish?
These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...