konaboy Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 GMaj7 DMaj7 Fmaj7 Em7 I played them for you here: https://instaud.io/3MMu I think we're in the key of D so the first two chords are a IV to the I. But I don't understand the theory of the F major chord, since F isn't in the key of D major. The final chord is the II of D. It also sounds like a common progression, so what's the theory? Are we changing key to get to the F? I think I'm missing something obvious, thanks in advance. Quote hang out with me at woody piano shack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torhu Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 I suppose you could say that the Fmaj and Em7 chords are in the key of C. You could also say that Em7 is a chord from both D and C major, it creates an ambiguity, and serves to tie the two keys together. Not sure of the terminology involved, I don't know the English terms for this. A simpler way of looking at it is that when you reach the Fmaj7 chord, you are creating a pattern of descending seconds (and sequencing maj7 chords). If you play a Cmaj7 instead of Em7 the pattern will be more obvious, but the Em7 is also a common substitution for C major chords. The Em7 breaks the pattern, but in a gentle way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianoproducer Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 Hmm. A key modulation to my ears. Theory wise I'm not sure. Nice progression I hear similar progressions in some early Elton John tracks, such as this: Also reminds me of some early Rickie Lee Jones piano stuff. Very 'wistful' sounding chordal colours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PianoMan51 Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 I suppose you could say that the Fmaj and Em7 chords are in the key of C. You could also say that Em7 is a chord from both D and C major, it creates an ambiguity, and serves to tie the two keys together. Not sure of the terminology involved, I don't know the English terms for this. A simpler way of looking at it is that when you reach the Fmaj7 chord, you are creating a pattern of descending seconds (and sequencing maj7 chords). If you play a Cmaj7 instead of Em7 the pattern will be more obvious, but the Em7 is also a common substitution for C major chords. The Em7 breaks the pattern, but in a gentle way. Two parallel plagal cadences, first in D, then modulating to C. Yes its lovely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjazz Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 Jacob Collier talked about these extended plagal cadences ("plagal plagal" was his shorthand, I think) in one of the June Lee YouTube interview videos, as I recall. Yours has the nice feature of a modulation and a iii-for-I substitution. Even just walking plagal cadences around the circle of fifths/fourths sounds cool: Quote Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konaboy Posted June 8, 2019 Author Share Posted June 8, 2019 thanks, that's really interesting. yes, when you realize the Em is as a substitution for C then the pattern of two plagal cadences (never heard that terminology before:) becomes clear. IV-I in D IV-I in C will check out the example above when I'm at the piano, thanks for sharing. Quote hang out with me at woody piano shack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konaboy Posted June 8, 2019 Author Share Posted June 8, 2019 btw, totally did not intend this thread to be a plug for my stuff, but here's a track I made using Noire and this progression. I thought some of you might enjoy the chords and the piano. It's on patreon but free for all to play and download. https://www.patreon.com/posts/weekly-wav-27430718 Quote hang out with me at woody piano shack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthoid Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 here's a track I made using Noire and this progression. Noire Lead? Quote When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psionic11 Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 That's a great rainy Sunday morning progression. Adding the 2nd (9th) to every chord gives more of the same. I like this bass line for it: G F# F E G D F A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konaboy Posted June 8, 2019 Author Share Posted June 8, 2019 i just tried your bassline and yes, it works great. That Em7/A voicing at the end is sublime. A familiar sound, but I don't know why it sounds so good. What's the theory here, is this a V for the ii substitution? (sorry, I should be satisfied with it just sounding good but feeling a bit analytical recently) Quote hang out with me at woody piano shack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psionic11 Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 Awesome that you're on the other side of the globe and yet we're both sharing the inspiration at the same time. Obvious, but still amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psionic11 Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 The A turns the last chord into a dominant 7th (not sure of the exact technical term). You can repeat the progression, but try going to a Dmaj7(add 2) to end it. I don't want to call the Em7/A an A11 sharp 4, because to me that implies there's a 3rd in there, which there isn't. Still, it functions like an A7, wanting to resolve to D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psionic11 Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 Thanks for posting that. The only jazz song I know is Autumn Leaves, which walks the circle a lot. In another life I would have liked to have mastered jazz. For now, noodling over those plagal cadences is challellenging enough. A bit restless to my ears. (Was supposed to quote Mike'splagal post above) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjazz Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 The A turns the last chord into a dominant 7th (not sure of the exact technical term). A9sus4 Quote Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernMeister Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 A plagal cadence variation, as noted. I'd say it's a simple two chord progression with a one tone modulation going down in between. Plenty of exercises in this respect. As others have noted, plenty of songs with this progression as well, albeit with slight variations. Steve Porcaro's Human Nature is certainly one of them; substitute your Dmaj7 for A...common tones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjazz Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 [video:youtube] Quote Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoken6 Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 Steve Porcaro's Human Nature is certainly one of them That's where I heard it! Thank you Bern... Cheers, Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam CA Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 GMaj7 DMaj7 Fmaj7 Em7 I played them for you here: ... There's no context and certainly not enough information to have one right answer. If you say this is in the key of D, F could simply be a borrowed chord from the minor key. There's absolutely no way for anybody to come to a conclusion, so it's all going to be guess work really. Quote www.youtube.com/c/InTheMixReviews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konaboy Posted June 8, 2019 Author Share Posted June 8, 2019 that's a strange response Sam. I provided chords and an example of me playing them with a hint of a melody, so what more context could one need? It seems that everybody else was able to come to a satisfactory conclusion so maybe just you? Quote hang out with me at woody piano shack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam CA Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 that's a strange response Sam. I provided chords and an example of me playing them with a hint of a melody, so what more context could one need? It seems that everybody else was able to come to a satisfactory conclusion so maybe just you? Honestly, to me it seems like everybody else tried their best to come up with an answer with what was given to them. Maybe some strongly believe that's the only possible answer with no other strong candidates? Totally possible. I'm sorry you find my answer strange, but that doesn't change the fact that you can take 4 chords and twist them in so many different ways depending on what happened before and what comes next. You can take the same 4 chord and use them to module...or just use them to create color/contrast and stay within the same key. Call it strange, but there's no one right answer to this. Your example is too short. Quote www.youtube.com/c/InTheMixReviews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvalley Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 It's in D Major. The progression starts on the IV chord (maj7). Then goes to root maj7. Then minor root 7 (9) with F bass note or first inversion, then ii chord, back to IV chord (maj7). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 Have you heard Gynopedies by Erik Satie? Its like that. Quote Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjazz Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 Have you heard Gynopedies by Erik Satie? Its like that. Check out the Blood, Sweat & Tears video posted above. Quote Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjazz Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 that's a strange response Sam. I provided chords and an example of me playing them with a hint of a melody, so what more context could one need? It seems that everybody else was able to come to a satisfactory conclusion so maybe just you? Honestly, to me it seems like everybody else tried their best to come up with an answer with what was given to them. Maybe some strongly believe that's the only possible answer with no other strong candidates? Totally possible. I'm sorry you find my answer strange, but that doesn't change the fact that you can take 4 chords and twist them in so many different ways depending on what happened before and what comes next. You can take the same 4 chord and use them to module...or just use them to create color/contrast and stay within the same key. Call it strange, but there's no one right answer to this. Your example is too short. One thing this discussion points up is that a LOT of popular music is constructed using chord shuttles or chord loops. A 2-chord shuttle or a 4-chord loop can be an entire song (as in konaboy's Dorothy), which may or may not resolve at the end (his does); often they just fade out. These shuttles and loops very often have no V-I cadence. There's a very interesting modern harmony book, Philip Tagg's Everyday Tonality II, that addresses this phenomenon at length. What he concludes is that trying to fit this type of music into the Euroclassical theory of directional movement toward a tonic often just doesn't work. (For example, from the Preface: "Explaining something as common and as ostensibly simple as the La Bamba chord loop (as in La Bamba, Guantanamera, Wild Thing, Pata Pata, Twist & Shout etc.) in terms of tonic, subdominant and dominant had for some time struck me as about as productive as using theories of combustion to explain electricity. And yet some music scholars still try to apply Schenkerian notions of harmonic directionality to tonal configurations in which notions like dominant and perfect cadence are at best questionable, if not altogether irrelevant.") His view is that often these shuttles and loops should be viewed as essentially entities unto themselves, not directional movements toward a tonic. The repetition is its own purpose. Quote Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 Pianist Aldo Ciccolini was the master interpreter of Erik Satie, dig the use of rubato and behind the beat timing: [video:youtube] Quote Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docbop Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 Check out some Tadd Dameron he was known for his all major chord turnarounds. https://www.learnjazzstandards.com/blog/tadd-dameron-turnaround-chord-progression-workout/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam CA Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 One thing this discussion points up is that a LOT of popular music is constructed using chord shuttles or chord loops. A 2-chord shuttle or a 4-chord loop can be an entire song (as in konaboy's Dorothy), which may or may not resolve at the end (his does); often they just fade out. These shuttles and loops very often have no V-I cadence. There's a very interesting modern harmony book, Philip Tagg's Everyday Tonality II, that addresses this phenomenon at length. What he concludes is that trying to fit this type of music into the Euroclassical theory of directional movement toward a tonic often just doesn't work. (For example, from the Preface: "Explaining something as common and as ostensibly simple as the La Bamba chord loop (as in La Bamba, Guantanamera, Wild Thing, Pata Pata, Twist & Shout etc.) in terms of tonic, subdominant and dominant had for some time struck me as about as productive as using theories of combustion to explain electricity. And yet some music scholars still try to apply Schenkerian notions of harmonic directionality to tonal configurations in which notions like dominant and perfect cadence are at best questionable, if not altogether irrelevant.") His view is that often these shuttles and loops should be viewed as essentially entities unto themselves, not directional movements toward a tonic. The repetition is its own purpose. Absolutely! There's a whole repertoire of 'Minimial Music' based on two or even one single chord. You're limited to a very small number of chords and naturally you have to use other means to built and support the composition . Your examples actually support my point of view. They are not just 2 or 4 chord loops. There's always a fuller context (such as the songs/pieces you mentioned) that helps you come to a conclusion. Without enough information, you can't come to the one and only analysis. Quote www.youtube.com/c/InTheMixReviews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cphollis Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 Thanks for sharing. I had a bit of fun noodling around with this, plus all the comments. My musical sustenance for the day. Quote Want to make your band better? Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Quinn Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 Sounds like like IV to I in D followed by IV to iii in C. The E-7 can be viewed as a sub for C Maj7. Theory wise, progressions that change keys by moving down whole steps are very common. How High the Moon is an old tune based on this movement. Another take on this progression could be IV I biii ii in the key of D. The flat iii chord being a chord borrowed from the parallel minor. This sounds like a good explanation on paper but it doesnt quite sound this way to my ears when I play it. Quote https://alquinn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threadslayer Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 My first impression on hearing the first three chords was IV, I, Im (Dm9) setting up a ii/V turnaround to the key of C, then the Em was a pleasant surprise. Quote Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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