What are objective standards of good speakers for live sound

[Stephen S]

When moving slightly off axis (but still well within the nominal dispersion pattern of the horn), you will find that dips and peaks move around. What appears as a slight dip in response in a particular frequency range on axis may not look the same slightly off axis. The "color" of the sound can vary due to inconsistencies in FR within the coverage pattern. Its common.

 

The effects i'm referring to in the vertical plane are common to all speakers with offset horns and woofers. The QSC's are no exception. Its related to the interference between the woofer and horn in the crossover overlap region and cannot be avoided.

 

[J. Dan]

It also depends on the crossover slope and the distance from center to center of the drivers relative to wavelength. But at this point we're splitting hairs. I don't thing that those minute details are what is being discussed here.

[ihavezippers]

Thanks everyone, appreciate all the feedback.

 

Most folks on here play with the 8's or at most the 10's. I play with a single 10 (mono) and like our esteemed collegue, Kanker, tend to run it in the "Ext Sub" mode to roll off the bass.

Thanks I'll try this, but the plan is to return this afternoon unless this addresses the issues.

 

No, you should have gone for the tt08a. I can put you in touch with a distributor who will give you a price directly that you may appreciate.

I'm interested. I'll PM you, thanks.

 

if you're in the US, you should know the secret password - his first and last name begins with a C and the state he's in begins with a C. And it's not Ca. or that place where Kent Eriksen is. grin

 

Tell him I sent you.

Canta Claus? Lol i have no idea what this code talk means, maybe Moe can explain.

 

The K8.2 is noticeably flatter from 5k to 15k than the K12.2 is. Combine the 12's high frequency valley with its somewhat narrow 75 degree dispersion (which indicates additional frequency response degradation off-axis more rapidly), and I'd be disinclined to choose the 12 unless I really needed more volume or "house music" style deep bass, and was willing to trade off sound quality to get it. For most of us, better to stick with the 8 or 10, based on specs.

ughh, wish i had picked up the 8/10. maybe they'll still give me 15% off. if i can get a good deal on the tt08 though...

 

our description of things sounding "underwater" rings a bell with me, since that describes my AP sound when I hear it summed through a single speaker.

This may be the basis of the 'unclear'/'underwater' character of the sound i'm hearing---I'm running the default Kawai MP7SE piano patch (stereo i assume) through a single K12.2. I'm aware using a single speaker and summing stereo to mono messes up the sound, but would it suddenly have a much more realistic/acoustic character if I added a second K12.2? Not saying you're wrong, just seems like that may give me more of a stereo listening experience, but the less than accurate reproduction of the acoustic piano patch would remain? The only time I've heard the accurate/acoustic character I'm looking for was through a single Yamaha studio/reference monitor, headphones, and an Acoustic Image bass amplifier (unfortunately, the output of this amplifier is not strong---would only work for a small jazz ensemble at its loudest.

 

 

 

 

[Stephen S]

I was (poorly) trying to suggest that its best not to infer a speaker's strengths/weaknesses or sound character by reading subtle differences in axial frequency response curves. These are not necessarily a good indicator of its suitability for a specific purpose.

[J. Dan]

I was (poorly) trying to suggest that its best not to infer a speaker's strengths/weaknesses or sound character by reading subtle differences in axial frequency response curves. These are not necessarily a good indicator of its suitability for a specific purpose.

 

Well, we're in agreement there. In fact, these days I really wouldn't trust any specifications put out by a manufacturer.

[ihavezippers]

Stephen, i see youre affiliated with Fulcrum which is as I understand it, the gold standard in pa speakers. My understanding is Fulcrum is not in the sub/$2k per speaker class-is rcf tt08a what you would recommend for acoustic piano/audiophile sound (or as close as $2k can get to audiophile sound in a pa speaker?)

[Stephen S]

I do not have any first-hand experience with the TT08a. However, there is an extremely discerning user on this forum who has auditioned many speakers and really likes the TT08a. I would trust his experience more than my opinion. I know the RCF folks quite well. They make very good drivers and speaker systems, so I would imagine that this product is likely to be a top performer.

 

I use one of our(Fulcrum) 8" models on many gigs. It has some similar attributes to the TT08, and some important differences. Generally speaking, I prefer a larger woofer and compression driver for loud gigs or large stages (particularly for piano sounds), but the 8" system can work quite well for a fairly wide variety of needs.

 

[ihavezippers]

I had some success with the sub-off options (there is a setting where it cuts off frequencies at certain levels i guess, and by setting this too 125hz, the bass is much more subdued (but still kind of boomy)). i also got a cleaner sound than last night, using considerably lower volume (vs last night competing with a full jazz big band) and using the mono-patch. it still sounds artificial to my ears though, not a clean/acoustic natural AP sound especially when you compare the same patch on the reference monitor/earphones.

 

im going to try and return the k12.2 and get the tt08a. if i was stuck with the k12.2 though i could live with it now that i have discovered the sub-off and mono-patch options.

[Stephen S]

FWIW - the FA28ac is a bit heavier than the 108P because the FA28 has both an 8" coaxial driver and a separate 8" woofer, whereas the the 108P has just a coax driver.

 

Despite the fact the FA28 has 2 woofers in it, the two products are very close in size.

[ihavezippers]

i take it the FA28ac is not in the sub$2k price range?

[Al Coda]

"Live sound" for what ?

Band/PA or just only keyboard monitoring ?

I´ve read your 1st post,- so I hope it´s o.k. I´m asking ...

 

A.C.

[ihavezippers]

AC: half monitor-use, half keyboard amp-substitute in situations where there is no house PA

[Stephen S]

i take it the FA28ac is not in the sub$2k price range?

 

Unfortunately, you are correct.

[Reezekeys]

Not to once again broach the 'ole mono-vs-stereo deal but the simple truth is that two speakers, placed in back of you on each side and angled slightly outward, will have a much wider angle of coverage should you be using them as a keyboard amp-substitute wide enough to, in my experience, cover you, the bandstand and a lot of the audience (I usually set up on one side of the stage, angled in slightly, to achieve this). The best reason? It'll put a grin on your face as you hear yourself from around you, instead of one spot. With your beautiful stereo piano samples properly reproduced and heard the way they were intended to be heard kinda like when you're sitting down at a real grand piano (except that the sound is coming from behind, of course!). I started doing this 20 years ago with two Mackie SRM450 speakers and it was worth it for my satisfaction to lug 102 lbs of speakers to all my gigs. Ten years ago I got my K8s, cut my weight in half and improved my sound. I will guess that two 8" speakers will move as much air (or more) than a single 12". I'm not here to cheerlead for the K8 or 8.2s I'm saying any of the good-quality 8" powered guys out there will be a better choice than a single K12.2, if you're up for the slight amount of extra work involved in cabling and setup. Shlep-wise I'm not that sure that moving two 8" PPAs are much more of a burden than a single 12 or 15. In some circumstances, maybe, but for me the payoff is well worth it.

[J. Dan]

You guys who don't sing have it a lot easier

 

[AnotherScott]

Shlep-wise I'm not that sure that moving two 8" PPAs are much more of a burden than a single 12 or 15. In some circumstances, maybe

though it's not just the moving... it's also often the moving and setup/breakdown of the additional tripod, and of course the extra signal cable run, the extra power cable run

[Reezekeys]

Shlep-wise I'm not that sure that moving two 8" PPAs are much more of a burden than a single 12 or 15. In some circumstances, maybe

though it's not just the moving... it's also often the moving and setup/breakdown of the additional tripod, and of course the extra signal cable run, the extra power cable run

Agreed, which is why my post included the phrase "if you're up for the slight amount of extra work involved in cabling and setup." Of course, I look at it as a slight amount of extra work, for others maybe it's not so slight! Is it worth the extra few minutes of setup time & shlep to be happy playing music for two to four hours? For me, usually the answer is yes. For a 20-minute wedding ceremony gig in an outdoor courtyard? Probably not.

 

I'm very lucky to play good music with great musicians. Who wouldn't want to sound the best and play the best they can in those circumstances? Having the sound I'm happy with is essential to this. If others are happy with a single PA speaker, or a Roland KC amp, that's great I won't try and dissuade them from that point of view. For others asking questions or seeking opinions, I'll continue to throw my .02 in. For years I used a single cab, a nice JBL (15" & horn) powered by a Carver amp in bridged mode (pushing about 800 watts iirc). Once I started using true stereo sound sources, I got the Mackies and haven't looked back.

[ihavezippers]

Reezekeys (or anyone really), do the K8.2's provide enough bass for electric piano & organ duties? I returned the K12.2 and while there, they let me hear the K8.2 and K10.2 (they wouldn't let me hook up a keyboard though, I was limited to listening to the salesman's phone YouTubing some terrible new age solo piano stuff).

 

The K8.2 sounded best to my ears for AP, and I was very tempted to buy there considering they offered 15% discount and I could walk out with a pair for hundreds less than I'll pay for a single TT08a (which I don't think I have an opportunity to hear in person before I buy). The K10.2 sounded better than the K12.2 in terms of a tamed bass, but it was on the fence in terms of sounding unnaturally bass-y to my ears. This was also using default settings on the speakers, so I may be able to play with the K10.2's settings to dial in a great sound.

 

But whereas the K8.2 sounded pretty natural for AP, I wonder if it wouldn't carry the bite I like to hear from playing Rhodes basslines. I may need to play organ basslines as well. I guess the only way to know for sure is to go back and bring my own music to test out.

[AnotherScott]

Reezekeys (or anyone really), do the K8.2's provide enough bass for electric piano & organ duties?

To some extent it depends on volume level, but I wouldn't be surprised if the K8.2 failed to duplicate the sound of Hammond B3 bass pedals going through a Leslie 122 with a 15" woofer, or the deepest sounds of a Rhodes Suitcase going through its four 12" speakers. But if you're playing with a bass player, you don't want that bass out of your keyboards anyway. As mentioned earlier in the thread, some of us roll off our bass just for that reason. Or we largely stay away from the low notes on these instruments. I've usually played with an 8". When I'm playing LH bass, unless it's a pretty quiet gig, I bring a separate Markbass CMD121P just for the bass. Sounds great.

[Reezekeys]

Exactly as Scott said. I roll off bass on my K8s (as I've mentioned ad nauseum in this thread!) - and that's with me sometimes playing left hand bass! Don't forget we're talking about two K8s versus a single larger K you had before. You'll be moving more air. The only caveat in my thumbs up for the 8's doing a good job for you on the low end is that I don't do any straight organ gigs or stuff with organ pedals I have never needed that kind of almost-subwoofer response. if I were you I would go back to the store with your iPhone or other portable music playing device, and play a track you know with good low end through the 8s. Crank them. I think you'll like what you hear. And just to add, rhodes is the sound I roll the most bass off from it's always too muddy-sounding if I don't, and all the bass players I work with appreciate it!

[ihavezippers]

thanks for feedback guys, will go checkout again with bassy-rhodes and organ music.

 

does anyone know whether any retailers in southern california area have tt08a in stock? surely somewhere in LA has one. i can call rcf usa monday but would like to checkout/finalize this decision this weekend if possible.

[mate stubb]

I bought my pair of TT08a's unheard and was extremely satisfied. If you are kicking bass I would augment them but they are VERY uncolored, and even better, can be turned up to deafening levels without becoming shrill.

[Al Quinn]

I have a pair of TT08s and love them. I usually use them for jazz; they reproduce AP (and everything else) beautifully.

 

I dont play many rock gigs these days but had one last night. It was outdoors and I was not going through the PA so I had to play loud. The power and clarity of the TT08As is amazing.

[AnotherScott]

I was able to A/B the TT08A against the much cheaper JBL PRX625, and I preferred the JBL. Discontinued, but I assume the current replacement PRX825 is at least as good (I'd also look at the 3-way PRX835 though I haven't heard any of the 3-ways in the PRX series personally). To me, the question on the RCF is how much more you're willing to pay for better portability. In that sense, the older 600 series was the pick of the JBL litter as it used the lighter weight neo drivers, which made the PX625 60 lbs... heavy, but far more manageable than today's PRX825's 79 lbs. But if you've got more muscles than money, personally, I'd take the JBL over the RCF.

[JoeToGo]

Not to once again broach the 'ole mono-vs-stereo deal but the simple truth is that two speakers, placed in back of you on each side and angled slightly outward, will have a much wider angle of coverage should you be using them as a keyboard amp-substitute wide enough to, in my experience, cover you, the bandstand and a lot of the audience (I usually set up on one side of the stage, angled in slightly, to achieve this).

 

Have you tried the CPS Spacestation, which purports to achieve a similar result from a single point? Just curious. I find it a handy compromise, being just under 40 lbs but still providing a stereo-ish sound ....

[ihavezippers]

Not to once again broach the 'ole mono-vs-stereo deal but the simple truth is that two speakers, placed in back of you on each side and angled slightly outward, will have a much wider angle of coverage should you be using them as a keyboard amp-substitute wide enough to, in my experience, cover you, the bandstand and a lot of the audience (I usually set up on one side of the stage, angled in slightly, to achieve this).

 

Have you tried the CPS Spacestation, which purports to achieve a similar result from a single point? Just curious. I find it a handy compromise, being just under 40 lbs but still providing a stereo-ish sound ....

 

i rented the cps ss3. it sounded good with e.piano and organ but sounded really bad to my ears for AP. the best description i can give of this is my experience using a mini-guitar amp for keyboards-the sound was contorted/compromised. that said, the ss3 has a smaller frequency response range, i am curious if the ssXL (which is bigger/bigger frequency response range) would sound better for AP. it was difficult to find the ss3 locally for me, i was unable to find anyone with s ssXL in stock.

 

for me at this point, its going to either be the tt08a or k8.2/k10.2, just need to find a tt08a locally to demo.

[ihavezippers]

thanks Dave, im in San Diego but Im willing to drive up to LA to hear these. Rather lose 4-5 hours driving than have the risk of trying to return tt08a (i dont think rcf allows returns). ill pm you thanks

[Reezekeys]

Not to once again broach the 'ole mono-vs-stereo deal but the simple truth is that two speakers, placed in back of you on each side and angled slightly outward, will have a much wider angle of coverage should you be using them as a keyboard amp-substitute wide enough to, in my experience, cover you, the bandstand and a lot of the audience (I usually set up on one side of the stage, angled in slightly, to achieve this).

 

Have you tried the CPS Spacestation, which purports to achieve a similar result from a single point? Just curious. I find it a handy compromise, being just under 40 lbs but still providing a stereo-ish sound ....

 

i rented the cps ss3. it sounded good with e.piano and organ but sounded really bad to my ears for AP.

This topic has been covered here quite a bit but to summarize: the spacestation's method of achieving stereo is the mid-side microphone technique in reverse. The front speaker outputs a L+R signal, IOW summed and mono. All the aforementioned particulars of why some stereo acoustic piano samples sound bad summed apply.

[ihavezippers]

Just want to give shoutout to Dave Ferris who was kind enough to let me hear his TT08As/takeup his time on a Saturday. I was able to hear the TT08as with acoustic piano, electric piano and organ patches. Today I went back to Guitar Center and demoed the ksc 8.2 with my own music, a mix of solo AP jazz, b3 organ, and e.piano. Not quite A/B comparison but as close as I could get. i think the tt08a is overall more clean/forwarded sound if that makes sense, and this was most noticeable with AP-the tt08a piano was definitely more full/present, whereas it was kind of mumbling-esque in the k8.2. but in terms of tonal range, they sounded the same to me. the k8.2 lows actually sounded really good/full, i was pleasantly surprised. again though, i think the tt08as would be more present of a sound-the k8.2 sounds like someone talking to you from across a room whereas the tt08a sounded like someone talking right next to me, that was the only definite difference to my ears.

 

Daves tt08as had a little hiss/background-processing sounds and i didnt hear the same from the k8.2. i think this was due to electrical issues and/or the keyboard....but im not 100% confident the tt08a doesnt have some inherent ambient white noise. so im still on the fence.

[Al Quinn]

I hear a little hiss from my TT08As too. I hear the hiss when nothing is connected to the input. I also hear the hiss when the TT08A volume is set to its minimum. So I think its inherent in the powered speaker itself. If I were using these speakers to listen to music in the quite of my home it would be an issue. On a gig, even a mellow jazz gig, I dont hear the hiss at all.