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Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: Sam Mullins] #2989837 05/16/19 12:34 PM
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I play the K2-88. The RH3 is not my favorite. The grading isn't good IMO. It's too heavy in the bass. It's far heavier than my Baldwin. It only has IO for one expression pedal. But Setlist Mode absolutely rules.


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Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: J. Dan] #2989842 05/16/19 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: J. Dan

3) The internal combi setup of the Kronos is such that the MIDI controller only needs to transmit on one zone and everything is done in the Kronos, so the Controller doesn't need a lot of functionality.


Would you elaborate on this? The Kronos could be the controller for windows/mac software, and the cheap low-function 88 controller would trigger Kronos sounds. But could the Kronos MIDI capabilities be used by the cheap 88 note controller to control Win/Mac soft synths?


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Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: Sam Mullins] #2989845 05/16/19 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sam Mullins
Originally Posted By: timwat
If your intended destination is a Kronos (or similar), get the least-expensive, great-feeling 88 key digital piano you can find and drive Reason 10 while you save.


As usual, sound advice from Tim (and also from Dan in his post.)

I agree with getting a digital piano with a decent feeling keyboard. It gives you back up for soft-synth failure scenario. This combined with a 61-note synth action Kronos will cover a LOT of bases. You had asked about whether you get the weighted (88 note) Kronos or not. I have no experience with it but will point out the following:

a) the Kronos 88 is relatively heavy and unwieldy (53 lbs, 56 inches long before you add the case). Many of the acceptable low end digital pianos are way more portable (25-30 pounds).

b) I have no experience with the RH3 weighted action but there is a definite contingent of people who do not like it.

c) On the other hand, the Kronos-61 is moderate weight (31 lbs) and the unweighted synth action is generally considered to be among the better ones out there.

So if it were me, I would go low-end DP + Kronos-61 when you can afford it.


DPs are only rudimentary MIDI keyboards at best (MIDI note on/off on one channel only), but they are not MIDI controllers. There's a difference.

Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: The Real MC] #2989848 05/16/19 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: No Name
I do have a budget, and it is $1500 CAD.

Requirements:
• PB/Mod Wheels = yes
• Expression pedal = nice to have
• Sustain pedal = yes
• Knobs/buttons and sliders = no
• USB connectivity = yes

The Casio PX5 looks decent and I will check out reviews.

PX5S doesn't have expression pedal, but for your VST control purposes, it is easily added with something from https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php

Something some soundless controllers in this price range have tha boards-with-sounds do not is aftertouch.

Originally Posted By: The Real MC
DPs are only rudimentary MIDI keyboards at best (MIDI note on/off on one channel only), but they are not MIDI controllers. There's a difference.

It depends how you categorize things. Keyboards that may be called DPs but have good MIDI controller functionality include Kawai MP7/MP11 and Yamaha CP-anything.


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Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: Randelph] #2989849 05/16/19 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: Randelph
Originally Posted By: J. Dan

3) The internal combi setup of the Kronos is such that the MIDI controller only needs to transmit on one zone and everything is done in the Kronos, so the Controller doesn't need a lot of functionality.


Would you elaborate on this? The Kronos could be the controller for windows/mac software, and the cheap low-function 88 controller would trigger Kronos sounds. But could the Kronos MIDI capabilities be used by the cheap 88 note controller to control Win/Mac soft synths?


No, not really. Kronos doesn't really do a good job of taking external MIDI and manipulating it or adding to it and sending it back out. You'd want to control the soft synth stuff either from the Kronos or the other controller, not run one through the other or something like that.

One reason for my preference of the Kronos being the unweighted board is for the internal CX3 engine for organ. The local controls work for the locally triggered sounds....but more difficult to try to get them to work with a sound being triggered by an external controller. So that means if I want to use the sliders for drawbars on the organ, I'm going to want to play the organ part on the Kronos, and have the swell pedal plugged into the Kronos. That means I'd prefer the Kronos unweighted for Organ. Also I'm more likely to use the vector joystick, ribbon, pitch/mod, and buttons for manipulating synth sounds, which again, would prefer unweighted. AP/EP stuff doesn't need all of those controls, so a simple, nice feeling external keyboard is suitable.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: AnotherScott] #2989853 05/16/19 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

Something some soundless controllers in this price range have tha boards-with-sounds do not is aftertouch.


It still surprises me that studiologic managed to get aftertouch on the Numa Compact 2/2x, which is cheap, has internal sounds in addition to MIDI control and quite lightweight.

Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: Zadillo] #2989861 05/16/19 03:08 PM
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@ Dan, thanks for the clarification, it didn't make sense to me that the Kronos could be used as a MIDI filter/generator for other boards.

@ Zadillo, I think many would consider the NC2x more as a controller than a board in its own right, it has many issues. Still not clear if the feel of AT it generates is well done, might have to re-read the NC2x thread again.


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Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: Randelph] #2989864 05/16/19 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: Randelph
@ Dan, thanks for the clarification, it didn't make sense to me that the Kronos could be used as a MIDI filter/generator for other boards.

though I think Kurzweils can.


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Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: CEB] #2989885 05/16/19 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: CEB
Not sure what is up. Using my phone I can't find K-series Physis controllers at Kraft. Just the H series pianos. Thomann won't ship Physis to the US. Maybe contact Viscount US directly and find out what's going on. But yes it should be around 1800. Or go a cheap route and save for a Kurz or if two CV pedals isn't a priority get a Kronos.


Maybe I got the last one in April.
Call them and ask if the guy Jersey has more.

Then he’ll know you know somebody because that’s where they’re kept, have no clue how many, but I have a buddy coming back from Asia with pockets full of cash who wants one too.
2 people inquiring will make it worth their while,

Cheerz


Magnus C350 + FMR RNP + Realistic Unisphere Mic
Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: Sam Mullins] #2990551 05/21/19 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: timwat

If your intended destination is a Kronos (or similar), get the least-expensive, great-feeling 88 key digital piano you can find and drive Reason 10 while you save.

At present, I'm a fan of the Casio PX-S1000 and a USB cable. I'm using it right now to drive Scarbee in Kontact Player. The Casio's $599 most places. And there are less-expensive options out there, I'm sure.

If you start going down the path of buying more software, there's great options out there.

But every $ spent is one $ less saved for your top-tier workstation.


The reasoning behind getting the MIDI controller is that my end goal is changing every other day.

I went from wanting a popularized 80s keyboard synth, to learning that 80s synths can cost a lot and be in questionable condition, to looking at alternatives, to reading about Jordan Rudess’s love for the Korg Kronos, to trying the Kronos, to trying to find one used and, finally, to just opening up the search to any top-shelf system I can get my hands on to get me started.

I am not even sure my future synth will have a USB interface. I am trying as many synths as I can and when the excitement level pushes me to make the purchase, then I will.

Originally Posted By: drawback

Just to clarify a couple of things...

The new Casios will be $800 CDN and $1,000 CDN.

The Studiologic SL88 I was posting about was the Studio, not the Grand. I paid $670 CDN and close enough in quality for its lower price while you're saving for a workstation.

The LX88+ is not a weighted board (semi weighted but not diving board), hence the price – but lots of control, 88 keys for splits etc. I haven't played one but it can't be much different than a Nord SW keybed and that was "close enough for now" for me.




The Studio Logic SL88 and Arturis Keylab 88 are on my short list.


Originally Posted By: Al Quinn

The Casio PX-S3000 comes very close to your requirements (i.e., it’s just missing the mod wheel). I bought one last week and have been using it as a midi controller. Action is very nice — it’s fun to play!


I am going with a friend who a large music store in the city to try out the Casio as well as a few others.

Originally Posted By: J. Dan

Both of these points have been touched on in one way or another throughout the thread, but I'll bring them full circle in case it wasn't clear.

1) The Kronos will work with any Class Compliant USB MIDI device, so you don't necessarily need DIN MIDI to use with the Kronos.
2) My preference (and that of many others) is to use the Kronos 61 unweighted keys for synth/organ stuff, and use an external Weighted controller to play the Kronos pianos/EP's, etc.
3) The internal combi setup of the Kronos is such that the MIDI controller only needs to transmit on one zone and everything is done in the Kronos, so the Controller doesn't need a lot of functionality.
4) Finally, don't limit yourself to controllers. You could pick up a used workstation or stage piano with a good action at a good price and then you have some internal sounds as a backup if needed.


A lot of valid points. Thank you for the above information. Leaves me with even more to think about when coming to potential setups.

Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

Originally Posted By: No Name
Requirements:
• PB/Mod Wheels = yes
• Expression pedal = nice to have
• Sustain pedal = yes
• Knobs/buttons and sliders = no
• USB connectivity = yes

You also made reference to also getting a Kronos, Montage 8. or RD2000. Any of those also function as perfectly capable controllers for a VST system. So if you're going to get something like that anyway, I'm not sure why you need to buy a controller at all.


If a Kronos or any other top-shelf workstation fell into my lap at a price point I can afford today – I would grab it in a heartbeat. Originally, I wanted a recognizable keyboard driven synth from the 80s and realized it is not something I am just going to grab immediately. I am after the MIDI as I can afford it today and I am not sure whether I will land on the workstation or 80s synth. I am hunting for anything that takes my interest.

Originally Posted By: Sam Mullins

Originally Posted By: timwat
If your intended destination is a Kronos (or similar), get the least-expensive, great-feeling 88 key digital piano you can find and drive Reason 10 while you save.


As usual, sound advice from Tim (and also from Dan in his post.)

I agree with getting a digital piano with a decent feeling keyboard. It gives you back up for soft-synth failure scenario. This combined with a 61-note synth action Kronos will cover a LOT of bases. You had asked about whether you get the weighted (88 note) Kronos or not. I have no experience with it but will point out the following:

a) the Kronos 88 is relatively heavy and unwieldy (53 lbs, 56 inches long before you add the case). Many of the acceptable low end digital pianos are way more portable (25-30 pounds).

b) I have no experience with the RH3 weighted action but there is a definite contingent of people who do not like it.

c) On the other hand, the Kronos-61 is moderate weight (31 lbs) and the unweighted synth action is generally considered to be among the better ones out there.

So if it were me, I would go low-end DP + Kronos-61 when you can afford it.


I am happy to carry a heavy synth; I am starting to put on weight due to alcohol consumption paired lack of activity with avoiding the cold over the winter. If I love the workstation, I will make it work for the love of it. If I were touring, then totally would agree but this keyboard will be mostly stationary else I feel sorry for the band who felt I was their best option as keyboardist.

Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: hardware] #2990651 05/22/19 09:05 AM
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I say be smart and don’t throw good money after bad.

Don't buy the Arturia 88 the action is practically unplayable and Arturia’s hardware QC is not good.

If your main software program is Reason and you're not using it live, yet you have an eventual goal to get a Kronos or Montage, keep your eye on the ball and save your sheckles for that board and use that as your Reason controller, then you have the option of using both your Reason software and the onboard sounds of Kronos/Montage.

Do you want an 88 to play pianos? Then either Kronos or Montage 8 have excellent actions that work equally well for both piano and Synths. All you have to do is make sure your synth programs on Reason are set to zero (synth keyboard velocity).

The nonsense about 88 key weighted boards not being good for synths springs from misinformation and bad technique. If you're playing a synth program on a weighted board, you set your velocity to zero and only depress the key as far as the trigger point and no further.

If you're going to stick with software only, shell out the 1800 and get the Physis!


"I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny
Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: jimkost2002] #2990656 05/22/19 10:02 AM
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If you're considering a used workstation with good MIDI controller functionality that you might find in your price range, I'd look for Kurzweil PC3X.


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Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: AnotherScott] #2991996 05/31/19 11:37 AM
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Good Morning!

Birthday celebrations are in progress, and I am flush with cash. I am ready to commit to something and get it done. A summary looks like the majority of people are recommending the following:

• Komplete Kontrol S88, if I want to waste my money; ( votes: -2 )
• Casio PX5, if I also want a decent piano as a stand-alone; ( votes: 3 )
• Arturia Key Lab 88, if I want something with the options of the Komplete Kontrol S88 with less cost; ( votes: 2 )
• Studiologic SL88, if I like the feel of the Komplete Kontrol S88 with less cost; ( votes: 4 )
• Physis, if I am willing to donate an organ. ( votes: 3 )

Cast your votes as I am going to try and buy it tonight.

Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: No Name] #2992003 05/31/19 12:20 PM
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Remember that the SL88 is available in two versions, Studio and Grand. Most people would say that the Grand feels better (the reasons to get the Studio would be portability or price). I'd probably go for the SL88 Grand. You can always add more control abilities if you need them, but the action you get is the action you'll have. (And the aftertouch.)


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Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: AnotherScott] #2992019 05/31/19 02:08 PM
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Nothing to add except: it doesn't matter a jot what the rest of us think. It's whether you connect with it or not. Every action - Casio Privia, Yamaha CP4/GHS/BHE/STFU, Korg RH3, the Kawai crowd - has its fans and detractors.

Cheers, Mike.


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One or two keyboards.
Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: stoken6] #2992040 05/31/19 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: stoken6
Nothing to add except: it doesn't matter a jot what the rest of us think. It's whether you connect with it or not. Every action - Casio Privia, Yamaha CP4/GHS/BHE/STFU, Korg RH3, the Kawai crowd - has its fans and detractors.

Cheers, Mike.

+1

Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: Sam Mullins] #2992153 06/01/19 09:48 PM
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My complaint with the NI stuff is it's VERY NI-proprietary. A lot of the snazzy features are completely useless if you don't use it within their specific environment. And take away their features, and the keyboard is actually pretty bare-bones, like an overpriced StudioLogic. Love the Arturia Keylab88. Yeah, it's not the greatest controller (I actually don't hate it, I think it's fine), but it makes way more sense than the Kontrol line, and has more standardized features than the StudioLogic. Ironic because Arturia market it as a "hybrid synth", though it's about as universal a controller as you can buy. Standard pitch & mod wheels, 4x4 pad grid, 9 faders (with organs in mind), 10 encoders and buttons (would have preferred analog pots, but whatever). I feel like most other controllers try to be special and have proprietary controls that aren't going to be useful or cumbersome for other synths.

Curiously, I use almost all NI software, not much Arturia stuff at all, though I'll choose the KeyLab over the Kontrol line every time.

Also, if you're playing with a laptop, I can't stress how useful the fold-out tray is on the Keylab88. It's the same price as the StudioLogic with far more hands-on controls (not buried in menus). To me it's a no-brainer.

Keylab88

Last edited by EricBarker; 06/01/19 09:52 PM.

"All's fair in love, war, and the recording studio."

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Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: EricBarker] #2992202 06/02/19 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: EricBarker
My complaint with the NI stuff is it's VERY NI-proprietary. A lot of the snazzy features are completely useless if you don't use it within their specific environment. And take away their features, and the keyboard is actually pretty bare-bones, like an overpriced StudioLogic. Love the Arturia Keylab88. Yeah, it's not the greatest controller (I actually don't hate it, I think it's fine), but it makes way more sense than the Kontrol line, and has more standardized features than the StudioLogic. Ironic because Arturia market it as a "hybrid synth", though it's about as universal a controller as you can buy. Standard pitch & mod wheels, 4x4 pad grid, 9 faders (with organs in mind), 10 encoders and buttons (would have preferred analog pots, but whatever). I feel like most other controllers try to be special and have proprietary controls that aren't going to be useful or cumbersome for other synths.

Curiously, I use almost all NI software, not much Arturia stuff at all, though I'll choose the KeyLab over the Kontrol line every time.

Also, if you're playing with a laptop, I can't stress how useful the fold-out tray is on the Keylab88. It's the same price as the StudioLogic with far more hands-on controls (not buried in menus). To me it's a no-brainer.

Keylab88


Eric, thanks for your comments, very useful info, didn't realize how proprietary the NI keyboards were. Curious though, checked it out on SWs site and saw no mention of a fold-out tray.


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Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: Randelph] #2992218 06/02/19 04:50 PM
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Hi,

I just wanted to mention that another 88 key weighted keyboard you should seriously look at as probably an interim choice wis the Juno-DS88 88 Key Synthesizer.

I did a search for it and have seen this listed with a Free Thumb drive with 10 expansion libraries, and drum grooves from one prominent online retailer for only $999. Also, speaking strictly of controllers there is also the Roland A-88 which is no longer available, but you may be able to find it used. I use the A-88 strictly for practicing piano, and the keyboard feels great! The Juno-DS88 uses the same keyboard. So would probably make more sense for you between the two. Here's what the retailer posted about it:

"The Roland JUNO-DS88 88-key synthesizer delivers all of the benefits of its predecessor, along with realistic hammer-action keys, improved pianos, additional organs, waveform expansion capability, Phrase Pads, new vocal effects, and more. You can download over 1,000 free sounds, including top-quality acoustic piano collections, world instruments, percussion, and loops and load them into the JUNO-DS88 via USB. You can call up sounds on-the-fly, or use the JUNO-DS88's adjustable parameters and real-time controls for custom patch-building. Eight Phrase Pads let you supplement your performances with samples and music files. Great for stage musicians and sound-tweakers alike, the Roland JUNO-DS88 is a phenomenal portable 88-key synthesizer!"

I would also look at this before making any purchases just so that you can make an informed decision.

~ Anthony

Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: AnthonyM] #2992457 06/04/19 11:27 AM
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Hi Everyone;

I wanted to thank everyone for their help. No doubt, my choice has benefited from the discussions, and I learned a lot.

I am now a proud owner of an Arturia Keylab 88.

Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: No Name] #2992458 06/04/19 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted By: No Name
Hi Everyone;

I wanted to thank everyone for their help. No doubt, my choice has benefited from the discussions, and I learned a lot.

I am now a proud owner of an Arturia Keylab 88.


Hey No Name - congrats & well done. Thanks for letting us know. Many new members start a what-should-I-buy thread, disappear during the fray. Hope you stick around KC!


Rod
Arturia Keylab MKii 88 | Mojo61 A/B | iConnectAudio4+ > iOS / MacOS
VI Ravenscroft | Neo-Soul Studio | Acoustic Samples V-Tines | iSymphonic | Pure Synth Platinum | iFretless Bass
Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: drawback] #2992459 06/04/19 11:45 AM
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After you've had it awhile post back here your thoughts on it.


Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12
Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell
Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: Toano88] #2992526 06/04/19 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: drawback

Hey No Name - congrats & well done. Thanks for letting us know. Many new members start a what-should-I-buy thread, disappear during the fray. Hope you stick around KC!


I am a long time forum user; it sucks when people start a post which never comes to a resolution.

Originally Posted By: Toano88
After you've had it awhile post back here your thoughts on it.


I would love to do a mini review.

Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: No Name] #2992705 06/05/19 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted By: No Name
Originally Posted By: drawback

Hey No Name - congrats & well done. Thanks for letting us know. Many new members start a what-should-I-buy thread, disappear during the fray. Hope you stick around KC!


I am a long time forum user


Okay, which begs the question.... ?


Rod
Arturia Keylab MKii 88 | Mojo61 A/B | iConnectAudio4+ > iOS / MacOS
VI Ravenscroft | Neo-Soul Studio | Acoustic Samples V-Tines | iSymphonic | Pure Synth Platinum | iFretless Bass
Re: 88-key Midi Controllers [Re: drawback] #2992733 06/05/19 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: drawback
Originally Posted By: No Name
Originally Posted By: drawback

Hey No Name - congrats & well done. Thanks for letting us know. Many new members start a what-should-I-buy thread, disappear during the fray. Hope you stick around KC!


I am a long time forum user


Okay, which begs the question.... ?



I intend to stick around. I love music and I love talking about music. People around me just think I am nuts. I need an outlet somewhere wink

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