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Strengthen fingers and finger exercises


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The OP is not a question about technique. It is about soreness when playing Linus and Lucy because he doesn't play often. Thus, Hanon is not the answer. He doesn't play enough as it is; therefore, he does not have extra time for Hanon if the goal is Linus and Lucy and he is already sore. Hanon will not result in being able to play Linus and Lucy. Healing-resting the soreness, gentle stretching, and slowly working up the target repertoire (Linus and Lucy) is the logical and practical approach to achieve Linus and Lucy without pain.

 

Hanon is a kneejerk response for everything in the piano world rather than addressing the specific repertoire. It's like telling a ballet dancer to go practice plies, eleves, and battlements when they must actually must learn a set choreographed piece at hand. Hanon is a bit of a brush off response rather than addressing the specific repertoire. I see it ALL the time in the piano teaching world. Have a problem, "go do Hanon"; quite the quick and simple answer isn't it.

 

Hanon also is all some pianist know from their musical upbringing rather than being inventive enough to instill their own technical drills when needed into their actual repertoire.

I see your point, but well have to politely disagree here in that I dont feel Hanons and scales are knee jerk responses. My belief is that finger strength, coordination, agility, etc is not specific to a specific style of playing. The stronger your hands, the more endurance the muscles and joints have, the better player you are likely to be. The op wanted tips to strengthen his hands/fingers. Hanons and scales may not be the only answers, but theyre valid answers. Playing Linus and Lucy will ultimately require a certain level of strength, and if you dont have it to begin with, the task becomes that much more difficult. As you said, healing, resting the soreness, stretching etc would serve a purpose here as well.

I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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So, I have been learning too play Linus and Lucy by Vince Guaraldi, and my right hand becomes sore after awhile, mainly since I have not played regularly too keep them in shape. I was wondering if anyone had any tips for working to strengthen them. Playing the right hand chords on this tune really stretches out my fingers. Never played like this before?

 

The OP is not a question about technique. It is about soreness when playing Linus and Lucy because he doesn't play often. Thus, Hanon is not the answer. He doesn't play enough as it is; therefore, he does not have extra time for Hanon if the goal is Linus and Lucy and he is already sore. Hanon will not result in being able to play Linus and Lucy. Healing-resting the soreness, gentle stretching, and slowly working up the target repertoire (Linus and Lucy) is the logical and practical approach to achieve Linus and Lucy without pain.

 

Hanon is a kneejerk response for everything in the piano world rather than addressing the specific repertoire. It's like telling a ballet dancer to go practice plies, eleves, and battlements when they must actually must learn a set choreographed piece at hand. Hanon is a bit of a brush off response rather than addressing the specific repertoire. I see it ALL the time in the piano teaching world. Have a problem, "go do Hanon"; quite the quick and simple answer isn't it.

 

Hanon also is all some pianist know from their musical upbringing rather than being inventive enough to instill their own technical drills when needed into their actual repertoire.

 

The soreness does come from playing Linus and Lucy and not playing scales. This is also the first time I have attempted to play a Jazz piece that mainly uses the black keys. Stretching and resting is the best for me. I may have stretched my self too far with attempting this piece. ;) I do know chords and scales. Its reading sheet music, is where I fall flat. I was learning from watching YouTube videos. I can pick things up not too quickly, but with a little practice, I can figure it out.

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Hanon and similar books CAN be used to address a specific repertoire. You can edit them, change the rhythm and twist them in so many different ways. These books are nothing but a guideline. It would be very strange to play through Hanon just like that.

 

 

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I have a hard time reading sheet music.

 

I was thinking about this today during my day-job on break -- sitting in my car, smoking and reading through Bach's A minor English Suite. I don't think the reading should be a problem, if you stick to the patterns in the music and can identify what you want to work on. If it were me, I'd look at the LH pattern in the A minor Bourée I, and the A major Bourée II, both from the English Suites, any day of the week.

 

Same idea, but they're conveniently-packaged little exercises, and everything else about the pieces can be ignored or reserved for later.

 

I suspect many people, including me, have a "thing" about Hanon because, yeah, sure, if you don't want to do scales or patterns without the benefit of a syllabus of little cribs, his exercises are only valuable if you rip out every bit of text, or at least take a Sharpie and cross it all out.

 

There is no "finger strength," there is no true "finger independence," and there is no "lifting fingers high" and striking the keyboard like some kind of cobra or jungle cat. I mean, about the last, probably Dr. Lonnie could, but I guarantee that's not the way he plays his fastest.

 

Anyway, I agree with whoever said above (in addition to me), that, probably in addition to as much rest (and relaxation) as possible, just modify the chords so they fit your hand.

 

I don't think any jazz police are going to care what you play in the RH so long as the harmony and the melody is there, plus that ostinato thing in the LH.

 

Quick anecdote, a friend of mine wanted me to show her how to play Billy Preston's solo from "Get Back," which I never copied before off the record. Her RH couldn't reach an octave comfortably, if at all, so, we just broke it up into a two-handed solo. And, no, I can't even remember what key they played that in originally. Just a somewhat-related anecdote.

 

But you can make a lot of things work if you can get off the page and just...I don't know, make it work.

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Hanon? I did those as a child.

 

These are fun. Heh heh heh. You can probably get these for free off IMSLP as PDF files if you want to check them out.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Essential-Finger-Exercises-Ernst-Dohnanyi/dp/1480304883

 

 

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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I admittedly did not read this whole thread so I hope I'm not duplicating anything. It seems like when I get sore it's not because of muscle conditioning, it's because of tension. Stay loose and stretched and RELAX your hand and wrist. Usually if I pay attention, I realize that most of the energy isn't going into striking or reaching the key, it's going into tensing everything up because I'm worried about reaching/striking the key. Try to stay relaxed and use fluid motion. Pretend your hand is a ballerina, not a break dancer.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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A visualization / personal Jedi Mind Trick technique I got from Preston Jackson is to concentrate on keeping the center of your palms relaxed. If you do that then it results in less bad tension in the wrists, hands and forearms. I've always had good luck with it.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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I used to play hours a day as a teenager, which is decades ago, and I recall that as the only time I at times had sore fingers. I recall advice to relax and rest, forcing isn't a good thing. Training of course is fine, but what do you train? Agility, pattern memory, rhythmic accuracy, velocity (touch) accuracy, strength, or simply getting through a piece ok enough...

 

T

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I used to play hours a day as a teenager, which is decades ago, and I recall that as the only time I at times had sore fingers. I recall advice to relax and rest, forcing isn't a good thing. Training of course is fine, but what do you train? Agility, pattern memory, rhythmic accuracy, velocity (touch) accuracy, strength, or simply getting through a piece ok enough...

 

T

 

Is there a Linux based solution that analyzes via FFT the particular harmonic stresses and corrects them via a bunch of stress corrections?

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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I went to 3 different Schools and each taught different music and theory comp regimens but all 3 used Czerny and Hanon.

Crezny being the most difficult but years later as a multi Timbral synthesist, soloing with both hands is really an advantage on an 8 zone controller.

 

I actually was a teenager so when I started performing and studying Jazz I often would transcribe the solos first, then use my left hand first then my right. Have to give a nod to the classical training as the hardest part was transcribing.

 

Also have to thank Greg Lake and Kieth Emerson for writing Take A Pebble.

Its even more fun than a Bach Invention, its like a dual lead Piano piece.

 

Well thats what I learned, and whenever anyone asks where I got my chops thats where it all started.

Magnus C350 + FMR RNP + Realistic Unisphere Mic
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I wasn't into extreme exercises, except for some hard pieces to play. I learned some classical pieces, couls soon on play from chord symbols, but most of all found it hard to play drums on the keyboard to a fair extend of accuracy. That translated after years to rhythmic abilities in general. None of that made my hands sore, that was I think growth, getting used to the posture of sitting behind the keyboard and in the same position for sustained time, and simply many hours of playing. Later on I don't think I've felt sore again, also not when playing hours a day easily at times. Now when I'm programming sound and play a lot to test them, I haven't been reminded of what sometimes I felt in the beginning. Good advice and occasional teacher prompts early on led me to not force anything, and keep rest, too.

 

T

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Well, Ill just keep practicing and eventually get it. My main challenge is getting both hands to work together.

 

Actually, I think that's not too far off.

 

I just now had a quick break and somehow wandered into the key of G and ... I don't remember how it started, but definitely a little "Stormy Monday" and a little "Black Coffee" and just a blues jam between cups of coffee.

 

Yeah, even twenty minutes of literal key-banging still has both my forearms sore.

 

I don't know if the best answer is "strengthen forearms" or "adjust approach to relieve tension," but I've done both in my life and all I can conclude is that the approach to the keyboard is somehow connected to the physical strain.

 

I do feel still the physical soreness in my forearms twenty minutes later, so I suppose I get where the idea of "strength" in fingers is coming from.

 

I think Jerry Lee said it best: "do [the] little boogie-woogie, every day." Otherwise it's down to sports medicine and a lot of things that aren't necessarily more than opinions.

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The other thing is brain training. I can play part of a melody in the right Hand and and a bass in the left, but trying to use both hands at the same time, doesnt work. I took piano lessons when I was a child until 21, and then stoped, but never practiced either. I was taught the classical method. John Shawm method, but was put off by it for years, but here i am at 48 trying to play Jazz and struggling with it, but i try and practice a little bit each day. Of course having YouTube helps.
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The other thing is brain training. I can play part of a melody in the right Hand and and a bass in the left, but trying to use both hands at the same time, doesnt work. I took piano lessons when I was a child until 21, and then stoped, but never practiced either. I was taught the classical method. John Shawm method, but was put off by it for years, but here i am at 48 trying to play Jazz and struggling with it, but i try and practice a little bit each day. Of course having YouTube helps.

 

What exactly did you play for your teacher all those years?

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The other thing is brain training. I can play part of a melody in the right Hand and and a bass in the left, but trying to use both hands at the same time, doesnt work. I took piano lessons when I was a child until 21, and then stoped, but never practiced either. I was taught the classical method. John Shawm method, but was put off by it for years, but here i am at 48 trying to play Jazz and struggling with it, but i try and practice a little bit each day. Of course having YouTube helps.

 

What exactly did you play for your teacher all those years?

 

Well, I wouldnt call it playing, more like just trying too get trough it!

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This is just odd! You took classical lessons for MANY years. Unless you were exclusively taught 'one-hand' piano literature, or played John Cage's 4'33'' the whole time, you must've developed some kind of 2 hand coordination over the years.

 

 

www.youtube.com/c/InTheMixReviews
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The other thing is brain training. I can play part of a melody in the right Hand and and a bass in the left, but trying to use both hands at the same time, doesnt work. I took piano lessons when I was a child until 21, and then stoped, but never practiced either. I was taught the classical method. John Shawm method, but was put off by it for years, but here i am at 48 trying to play Jazz and struggling with it, but i try and practice a little bit each day. Of course having YouTube helps.

 

What exactly did you play for your teacher all those years?

 

Well, I'll reply, since it's sort of my "Sunday" before the week.

 

I think this is one of the rare occasions that an internet forum has changed my views.

 

Namely, the repertoire vs. technique strategies.

 

So, like, let's say the B minor rhapsody of Brahms. Impressive. You have all these full octaves and wonderful fancy-sounding melodic embellishments.

 

So, repertoire, case (i)

 

Technique? Same piece. What happens when you run the scales HT near the middle of the piece?

 

Point for technique, case (ii). IOW, you're going to fall down if you don't have the raw chops.

 

And, for brain?

 

Same piece, but what happens when the main motive recurs in odd, distantly-related keys?

 

I don't know.

 

Yeah, it's probably too bad that modern teaching of music doesn't include improvising harmonies and playing by ear in both hands, but what are you going to do?

 

Bach Invention in C major, tranposed to the twelve major keys, and with voices inverted at will would probably do it, but that would take me like a week to do, if I could even do it from memory.

 

It would be good, but who knows?

 

ETA most things I do nowadays are related to raw technique or raw power. That's why I cited the couple of passages from the first two of Bach's English Suites. Those are two examples of why I come back to those they hit weak spots in my LH, and at the end of the day I come away playing closer to some music.

 

Not really any different than just improvising some patterns and drilling them, it just gives me some focus and relieves me of any supposed pressure to play it good, like an exercise.

 

After all, it's still music and the result's going to be about same just that now 3-4-5 in the LH is better, so how I measure it is testing against ... I don't know, just repeating and seeing if I can really play what I want in LH without it being a whole big thingg.

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This is just odd! You took classical lessons for MANY years. Unless you were exclusively taught 'one-hand' piano literature, or played John Cage's 4'33'' the whole time, you must've developed some kind of 2 hand coordination over the years.

 

 

Nope! Lets say I play the bass part of Linus and Lucy, and practice that until I am comfortable with it. Then I practice the melody in my right hand until I am comfortable. Its when I try too put them together thats where things dont work. My left hand just stops, when my right hand comes in. Its as if my brain doesnt understand what i am trying too do. The right side of my brain tells my left hand too stop. I have played chords, but never moved my left hand as arpeggio, so my brain is confused with what too do. Plus i never expanded my repertoire. I can play some real simple songs, sometimes in the wrong key, but i dont care.

 

I had a player piano as a child growing up, so I never saw the point in learning how to play. When i had a piano that could do it for me, and just pump the pedals. So my brain became more accustom to that type of playing, instead of sitting down and doing it myself.

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Its when I try too put them together thats where things dont work. My left hand just stops, when my right hand comes in. Its as if my brain doesnt understand what i am trying too do. The right side of my brain tells my left hand too stop. I have played chords, but never moved my left hand as arpeggio, so my brain is confused with what too do.

 

That sounds pretty normal to me: I know you said your age and so forth, but I'm not far behind in years and I still kind of suck at a lot of things.

 

It sounds about right, as for example, someone about my age retraining for different certifications. Grab a bunch of Schaum's Outlines of such-and-such. Even graph theory or basic abstract algebra.

 

Practice. Lots of times.

 

It kind of sucks to feel like a beginner at things as you get older, but I don't know any better way than just keep trying.

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Thank you!

 

Looks like, i will have too start all over again from the beginning, and just practice scales with both hands, going up and down the keyboard until I can be more comfortable.

 

Well, that sounds like a realistic goal to me.

 

As for playing the Vince Guaraldi piece, it may not be the best strategy, but it could work.

 

FWIW it takes me about twice as long at least to learn new things as ten years ago even.

 

About three years ago I had this big plan that I was going to ear-transpose the Sinfonie of Bach and run Czerny up and down and have complete opuses of Beethoven firmly locked down in memory, in addition to perfect recall of all the old repertoire.

 

No.

 

I'm still doing the same scales in LH and working on the same repertoire.

 

I don't know if that's a cautionary tale or just an example of some realistic goals.

 

FWIW, I think it's very much in your view to play the Guaraldi tune. I mean, it's certainly not impossible. But, maybe just ease up on yourself: it's just a jazz tune. It doesn't have to be right, it just has to sound right.

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Thank you J!

 

 

Maybe you can explain this too me? I can sit at my piano, very relaxed good posture, and can play scales using both hands and can do it pretty effortlessly, and can change it up, by plying the right hand up the scale, and the left hand down, and not make a mistake like hitting a wrong note, but when I try to play the first few bars of Linus and Lucy, I cant? What I mean is, I am still falling into that hole of the left hand stopping, and the right hand going? It is frustrating, but at the same time I dont want too give up. I am telling myself I can do it? Maybe, I just need to keep working at it?

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Do you type with one hand? I'm betting you don't. :)

 

Linus and Lucy is not a simple tune. I've worked on it, and I'm far from where I want to be with it. Since it's been a while since I have, I bet I'm further away now.

 

You have to break these things down. You have to practice some things in ways that seem painfully bad. Like, play it absurdly slow. If like you say you can play each hand separately then congratulations, that's a big part of it. But then you have to work on the method of putting them together. It will probably feel as slow and awkward as the first time you did each hand separately. That's fine. Take a small section of it and work on it. If that's a bar or less than a bar, that's fine. Just keep doing it until you're ready for the next section. Then put those two sections together. Keep going as slowly and awkwardly as it needs to be until it's not awkward, but be careful about speeding up at this point. One reason is, okay, you can play this section as fast as it's supposed to be but then you start super slow on the next section. It keeps going like this until it starts to fall together.

 

Does it get any easier? Sure it does. Every time you learn something it helps you with the next one. They won't all be as difficult as this, but some might. But then, you will know how to approach it.

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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This is just odd! You took classical lessons for MANY years. Unless you were exclusively taught 'one-hand' piano literature, or played John Cage's 4'33'' the whole time, you must've developed some kind of 2 hand coordination over the years.

 

 

Nope! Lets say I play the bass part of Linus and Lucy, and practice that until I am comfortable with it. Then I practice the melody in my right hand until I am comfortable. Its when I try too put them together thats where things dont work. My left hand just stops, when my right hand comes in. Its as if my brain doesnt understand what i am trying too do. The right side of my brain tells my left hand too stop...

This no longer sounds like its a hand strength, finger stretching issue, since you feel you can play each hand by themselves comfortably. Its when you put them together that your brain just sort of locks up. I have taught this song to many students, and find that some take to the left-right back and forth easily, others require more diligence. Ive found a couple of things that help depending on the student. One is simply to make a rough graph along a time line showing the timing back and forth between the two hands. It only needs to be the first four measures of the song (even better if you have the sheet music). Then go really slow following the chart, in the proper left-right sequence. Speed doesnt matter, and only try a few measures at a time, until it feels natural. Another trick that works is have someone else who knows the song play the left hand pattern over and over while you work in the right hand. When that feels comfortable, you play the left while they add the right, again, only a few measures at a time. If you dont have an accomplice, try recording the left hand yourself either with a smart phone or sequencer if available, then play along with yourself until the timing feels natural.

 

Edit: it looks like Joe types faster than I do!

I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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