Counting vs feel when playing in bands

[Tusker]

I love the main topic, but the sub-theme about pedants has me engrossed.

 

It would seem to me that a pedants' note is a note for any pedants who are reading. A pedant's note could be a note by the pedant writing or (less likely) a note for the one pedant reading.

 

Both are possible depending on intended meaning. To avoid confusion, I could suggest using the phrases "note for pedants" or "note from a pedant" which would be only marginally taxing to fatigued fingers and infinitely clearer to the reader. We would have killed an apostrophe, an act worthy of Olympic gold. But then we wouldn't have this entertaining discussion would we?

 

Hmmh. :idk

[Tusker]

On the main topic, I agree with Pianoman's framing of the issue. It's a matter of training the brain to count or the body to feel. Both are possible, with effort.

[stoken6]

Thanks to all who indulged my pedantry OT.

 

One of the biggest bug-a-boos in my current band is that several members play by feel -- and never get the bleeping transitions at the right time.

 

I can't even communicate in terms like "This phrase lasts four measures, and the next phrase starts on the And of Four."

I have this challenge in a band I'm working with. Guitarist says (regarding e.g. how long a solo should last) "it's just a feel thing". With 8 different people feeling it 8 different ways.

How about this tune

Cocker's version of The Letter is brilliant - I had to arrange it for our horn section, and spent a long time deciding how long a beat was. (As you say it switches from cut time to normal / or normal to half time).

groove grammar and syntax

Psionic you're a star for restoring the main theme of this thread after a derail.

It would seem to me that a pedants' note is a note for any pedants who are reading. A pedant's note could be a note by the pedant writing or (less likely) a note for the one pedant reading.

Thanks Jerry - I had the first sense in mind: a note for all pedants reading the thread, but I like your rewording!

 

Cheers, Mike.

[synthizen2]

Most of what I do is by feel. The only time I had to count was during the time I was in a prog tribute. Especially a piece like UK's "In The Dead Of Night" - most of the song is in 7/8, but then the instrumental section that comes after the chorus goes to something like 21/16 - and that part just had to be woodshedded by everybody at home by themselves, until memory-muscled into place. Doing the count manually in our heads caused the whole song to crash.

[Dr88s]

Wow - thanks for all of your responses!

 

I agree with most of what all of you said.

 

I play by feel but I was surprised at just how bad I was performing on this particular song without counting. I got to wondering if I'd been missing out on counting as an essential part of playing for all of these years.

[Bill H.]

So... is moving your body to the beat to stay in time counting or feeling?

 

Or am I being too pedantic?

[harmonizer]

Counting is just one way to pay attention to rhythmic precision. On some songs I count during rests, to make sure I am keeping in time. But on other songs I can't count without screwing up my piano playing (probably because I suck at piano), but then I use some other mental method to focus on the rhythm of the song.

 

Focusing on the beat when you are not playing is an important part of effective ensemble playing. The most frequent time we see this in our covers band is when one band member starts a song alone, and 2 measures later the next player joins in, but not at the *exact* same tempo - we have been attacking this in recent rehearsals.

 

I had a great high school band director who drilled into us how much better a band we could be by committing to playing together rhythmically. By the end of my sophomore year (the band director's first year with us), our jazz band was twice as good as it had been my freshman year, even though most of our talent had graduated at the end of my freshman year. You can't play together rhythmically unless each musician is working just as hard on the beat when they are not playing, as when they are playing.

[J. Dan]

Depends on the situation...sometimes some combination.

 

A long time ago I played Subdivisions by Rush. If I wanted to count in 7/8 that'd be some fast foot tapping. Instead I tapped my foot in 4 and alternated whether I played the notes on the downbeat or upbeat. Kind of like alternating measures of 3/4 and 4/4, just because it made it easing to tap my foot to it.

 

Where I absolutely can't count is doing polyrhythms....hurts my brain too much - just have to feel it.

[Ken Beaumont]

Yes, I sit in on bass from time to time. And if the band does something like Pink Floyd 'Money' which is in 7/4, I just have to feel it. Trying to count it out never works for me. I have to listen and just go with it.

[psionic11]

We play Subdivisions in my current band. That song is easy, been feeling that one since high school. It's smallest subdivisions are only eighth notes. The whole song is a feel song.

 

It's Spirit of Radio that's giving me a hard time, at those crazy irregular 16th and 32nd note runs in the intro and recapped before the reggae part. Too difficult to count, or else the written notation doesn't jive with the played riff, and I'm trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

 

Sometimes you just have to fake it and aim for the accents. And always make sure you come back on ONE.

[cphollis]

Now that I think about it, it's sort of strange how everyone's brain (or pedants') brain is wired differently for rhythmic feel.

 

Me, I've got this flexible pulse in my brain going all the time. Songs that jump meter multiple times are zero problem for me. Irregular meters in the middle of a song, no problem either. It's an ear thing, no specialized training.

 

One of my favorites in the Dead band is Estimated Prophet. It's changing up through the whole song. It can kick your butt unless you just go with it.

 

In a general context, we drop a beat with the vocalist, no problem. Easy recovery. If the drummer or anyone else starts to drag or hurry, I'm the first one to call foul. If everyone is locked into the groove, I can start doing my poly rhythm thing over them. Great crowd pleaser. I guess I'm lucky that way.

 

I have played with a few really good drummers who have the pulse thing going on. Big fun. Ditto bass players, guitarists, etc.

 

Just never in the same band at the same time.

 

So we count it out. Sigh.

 

 

 

 

[Tom Williams]

it's sort of strange how everyone's brain (or pedants') brain is wired differently for rhythmic feel.

Unless you are suggesting that we multiple pedants share one brain, it is my duty to mention that it shoulda been "pedant's" with the apostrophe prior to the "s."

[psionic11]

Yeah, just as there are those who have a naturally keen sense of pitch, some are more aware of rhythm and time (aka groove).

 

I tend to be overly analytical regarding both notes/harmony as well as rhythmic subdivisions. It can get in the way of flow.

 

Get a couple beers in me, though, and all that technical chatter goes away and I'm much more in the present, just feeling the groove and playing to the audience instead of my inner pedant.

[LennyTunes]

Get a couple beers in me, though, and all that technical chatter goes away and I'm much more in the present, just feeling the groove and playing to the audience instead of my inner pedant.

 

Yeah, that's what my drummer tells me.

[Outkaster]

If you play any Caribbean music where it's based on rhythm (Reggae, Soca, Clypso, Salsa, Mento, Compa) you have to feel it or else you'll get found out quick. A lot of time people in those islands can tell if you know what you are doing.

[The Real MC]

I've always been all about feel.

 

(There's a joke about women in there somewhere...)

[psionic11]

Get a couple beers in me, though, and all that technical chatter goes away and I'm much more in the present, just feeling the groove and playing to the audience instead of my inner pedant.

 

Yeah, that's what my drummer tells me.

 

Ha, too true! I was scolded by one of my more pro drummers a couple years ago. I had *way* more than a couple beers at that gig. He asked the next day in earnest, "Where did my great bass player go? At the end of the night it's like you were totally someone else. I need you to stay focused until the end of the gig or else we all sound like crap."

 

Tail tucked in, it hit home and I don't get sloshed anymore at gigs.

[MotiDave]

the one song I remember i really needed to count was when I was doing a Cars tribute and we played Touch n Go. The verse keys and lead vocal are 4/4 time but the rest of the band (drums, bass, rhythm" is in 5/4 time. then at bridge and chrorus they all come together in 4/4 and its easy to keep time.

 

really weird combo to hold together - i had to focus on my 4/4 - not sure if I literally counted or just focused hard on the 4/4.

 

very simple song - yet very tricky. Ive seen more than one band crash and burn trying to play it.

[The Real MC]

The trainwrecks I usually see come not from counting odd meters but for phrases that go through a measure then the usual starting beat lands on something other than "one".

[Ulf]

(Pedants' note 2: Anyone who complains to me that the apostrophe should be before the S will need to prove as a prerequisite that there is only one pedant).

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

You made my morning, Mike! Yes, I'm easy to please.