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Another Hammond Drawbar Question...


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[i didn't say it was improv, I am saying know how to play the db's

Your post which I quoted and was responding to was about an improv scenario, i.e. "it depends on the moment... you're changing often" etc. That doesn't apply to "how do I get the sound Wakeman used in the arpeggios in the quiet interlude in Roundabout."

 

In a broader context, in a sense, I'd say the OP asked about organ in a rock context, and you answered with how to play organ in a jazz or gospel context. Not that no one in rock ever alters drawbars as they play, but your full post described organ playing as it is done much more often in the other genres ("the DB's aren't 'settings', it's an extension of the player. Like the swell and c/v, it's vibe, tone, dynamics. It's a lead, then it's supportive, etc etc. You're changing often. You 'play' the DB's along with the keys and pedals."). That does not describe the vast majority of what you'll hear in rock or prog rock organ playing. No bass pedals. Little-to-no moving of drawbars while playing. Rock players DO often look at drawbars as "settings" rather than as a mode of expression.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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[i didn't say it was improv, I am saying know how to play the db's

Your post which I quoted and was responding to was about an improv scenario, i.e. "it depends on the moment... you're changing often" etc. That doesn't apply to "how do I get the sound Wakeman used in the arpeggios in the quiet interlude in Roundabout."

 

In a broader context, in a sense, I'd say the OP asked about organ in a rock context, and you answered with how to play organ in a jazz or gospel context. Not that no one in rock ever alters drawbars as they play, but your full post described organ playing as it is done much more often in the other genres ("the DB's aren't 'settings', it's an extension of the player. Like the swell and c/v, it's vibe, tone, dynamics. It's a lead, then it's supportive, etc etc. You're changing often. You 'play' the DB's along with the keys and pedals."). That does not describe the vast majority of what you'll hear in rock or prog rock organ playing. No bass pedals. Little-to-no moving of drawbars while playing. Rock players DO often look at drawbars as "settings" rather than as a mode of expression.

 

Ew boy,...

[edit] (2nd thought, so not worth it)

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Ew boy, screw the explainations.

 

Learn the damn instrument or find a different one. You don't know shit from shinola.

Not everyone needs to have the same skill set to be able to enjoy playing their instruments (or even to be able to get paid gigs).

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Not everyone needs to have the same skill set to be able to enjoy playing their instruments (or even to be able to get paid gigs).

 

That's for sure. I get a ton of gigs!

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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I hope this reads the right way but ya know the real answer to DB questions: it depends on the moment. To seasoned organ/hammond players the DB's aren't 'settings', it's an extension of the player. Like the swell and c/v, it's vibe, tone, dynamics. It's a lead, then it's supportive, etc etc. You're changing often. You 'play' the DB's along with the keys and pedals.

But if you're covering a song that has a distinctive organ sound playing a particular part, there's still reason to want to recreate that sound. Not all contexts are improvisational.

 

I didn't say it was improv, I am saying know how to play the db's

All the more reason to sit at the Hammond or clone and take some time playing every DB permutation you can come up with on a single DB set. Using your ears, understand what each single DB sounds like (across the entire keyboard), then with the percussion section, then groupings/select dbs, from single scales to chording, etc. Then playback the track, listen to the organist, and you'll nail any sound you want.

 

I'm just saying an organist plays the organ and that includes operations, everything on it. As they play the keys they're also playing the DBs (synthesis).

 

I absolutely see what youre saying, but thats not how most people work, especially classically trained keyboard players. Most people are preset players. The idea that a cutoff knob or a set of Drawbars can be part of the performance is alien to somebody whos only ever switched instruments when a different sound was needed. Pianos have only one preset sound.

 

And im many contexts, its neither necessary nor desirable to modify the sound as youre playing. If youre playing Whiter Shade of Pale with a cover band, you want THAT sound, and youre not going to be changing it. If somebody gives you a paint-by-numbers preset to get it, you use that. Its just one sound out of fifty youll be using that night the others being that OB-Xa preset for Jump and a DX piano thingie for Rebel Yell etc. You couldnt care less about how to program a DX7 if all you need is THAT piano for Greatest Love of All, or an OB-Xa, or a Prophet...or a Hammond.

 

Musically useful expression skills, but what pays the bills, pays the bills.

"The Angels of Libra are in the European vanguard of the [retro soul] movement" (Bill Buckley, Soul and Jazz and Funk)

The Drawbars | off jazz organ trio

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Not everyone needs to have the same skill set to be able to enjoy playing their instruments (or even to be able to get paid gigs).

 

"enjoying their instrument" (???)

 

Wasn't the question asking about 'what db setting' for a particular recorded organ sound? - in which the answer STILL is: learn what the drawbars are, what they do, and how they sound (and you won't need to ask this kind of question again).

 

I didn't read the OP's question as "do I have the skillset to enjoy my instrument?"

 

And yes there are oodles of absolutely terrible players gigging for money. They usually don't stick around too long, but sure.

 

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"Technology is anything invented after you were born."

 

We're fine with folks using synth patches, without learning the various forms of synthesis.

 

We're fine with people using the digital approximations of electromechanical keyboards, without learning to sample or model themselves.

 

More power to those who know both those things, it's impressive and you should be proud.

 

But not knowing it is not a deficit. It's just not a strength.

 

Same with the drawbar thing, each time it comes up. Those who have mastered the instrument should be proud. But we also should not corrupt that pride by using it to shame to anyone who has NOT mastered it. It's not a deficit, it's just not a strength.

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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I absolutely see what youre saying, but thats not how most people work, especially classically trained keyboard players.

 

No, that's how 'an organist" works and even if you want to pretend to be one you should grasp these basics.

 

Most people are preset players. The idea that a cutoff knob or a set of Drawbars can be part of the performance is alien to somebody whos only ever switched instruments when a different sound was needed.

 

Says who? You? The OP, the guy asking for 'the setting"? No, I disagree. Musicians worth a spit know their instrument (the rest can go **** themselves).

 

Pianos have only one preset sound.

 

:|

 

And im many contexts, its neither necessary nor desirable to modify the sound as youre playing. If youre playing Whiter Shade of Pale with a cover band, you want THAT sound, and youre not going to be changing it.

 

Question, do you think Mathew Fisher: A) doesn't know how the Hammond DB system works, sounds, and plays?, B) doesn't change his DB settings in performance? and C) got this 'setting' from someone else?

You think he skipped all this and 'played a preset', or did HE DIAL IT UP TO FIT THE TONE, FEEL/VIBE, OF THE TUNE? What makes you think you can skip all of this?

 

*I suppose it's 'possible' daddy came into the studio and set it up for him, but I doubt it.

 

 

If somebody gives you a paint-by-numbers preset to get it, you use that.

 

Mmm, no not necessarily. More often than not I'll work with the synth/organ/etc and edit to better match given what's happening within the moment onstage/studio with the song or artists. With the Hammond for example this occurs with immediacy at any point in a song, all night long (see: knowing the hammond db system)

 

And if the paint-by-numbers doesn't work, what then?

Insist your PRESET onto the band and song because you never did/don't want to learn your instrument? Sell the organ/clone/synth? Hunt down the individual who gave you poor info? Hire a better player?

 

 

Its just one sound out of fifty youll be using that night the others being that OB-Xa preset for Jump and a DX piano thingie for Rebel Yell etc.

 

This has nothing to do with whether you should learn to manage the DB system or your synths and it's synthesis.

 

* From the vintage synths to VSTs I can't tell you how many poorly programmed "Jump" patches I've had to tweak to sound/match better.

 

** btw, I like VH, I don't have a problem playing any of their music. I know it and like it just as much as Bill Evans, Jimmy McGriff, etc etc. I also don't have an issue with db or sound/patch editing (see: knowing your instrument/gear)

 

You couldnt care less about how to program a DX7 if all you need is THAT piano for Greatest Love of All, or an OB-Xa, or a Prophet...or a Hammond.

 

First, I'm very sorry about the content of your gigs.

But no, I don't agree with what you're saying.

You mean YOU "couldn't care less" (and you're talking about knowing synths and synthesis). I understand You/OP will use the preset because that's all you know. I'm saying you/OP should know more and that these basics really won't/shouldn't take that long to learn.

 

** and really, in the time it's taken one to banter back one could've learned this much or at least have made a lot of headway.

 

 

Musically useful expression skills, but what pays the bills, pays the bills.

 

I don't know what this means.

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...I'm saying you/OP should know more and that these basics really won't/shouldn't take that long to learn...

Who are you, judging what I, or anyone else should know? You have no idea anything about me, other than I asked a question on a keyboard forum. I likely have knowledge that youre missing, yet Im not presumptuous enough to suggest your knowledge need meet my standards to be adequate. Im sorry you seem to have a need to feel better than others. Seems a bit of a shortcoming you may want to work on for yourself. Cheers.

I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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Correct, they should learn their instrument.

As stated in my original question, Im a pianist, with 12 years of classical training. As such, I do feel I know my instrument, but its still a journey. Cheers to you for having mastered your drawbars.

I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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Who are you, judging what I, or anyone else should know?

 

Nobody's 'judging' you. They're answering YOUR question (as did I).

The insinuation that the answer feels like judgment in any way is on YOU. That's for YOU to deal with.

 

You have no idea anything about me, other than I asked a question on a keyboard forum.

 

Correct. Those who don't know you can only reply on the question itself which is what I and others have done.

 

I likely have knowledge that youre missing, yet Im not presumptuous enough to suggest your knowledge need meet my standards to be adequate.

 

Correct. Nobody here knows the scope of what you know, we can only reply as for the question asked. For example, because of your question I know that you know little to nothing about the Hammond DB system and synthesis.

 

 

Im sorry you seem to have a need to feel better than others. Seems a bit of a shortcoming you may want to work on for yourself. Cheers.

 

And I'm very sorry you've mistaken an honest reply and answer TO YOUR QUESTION as a statement of superiority. That to me not only seems like a shortcoming but a well-worn cop-out, but that's neither here nor there.

 

Good luck!

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Correct, they should learn their instrument.

As stated in my original question, Im a pianist, with 12 years of classical training. As such, I do feel I know my instrument, but its still a journey. Cheers to you for having mastered your drawbars.

 

The one constant truth is you/I/all will be learning until the nails hit the coffin.

 

I play piano, hammond, synths (most anything with keys). Not sure what this has to do with anything though.

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.Says who? You? The OP, the guy asking for 'the setting"? No, I disagree. Musicians worth a spit know their instrument (the rest can go **** themselves).

I feel this quote says more about you than it does about me.

I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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.Says who? You? The OP, the guy asking for 'the setting"? No, I disagree. Musicians worth a spit know their instrument (the rest can go **** themselves).

I feel this quote says more about you than it does about me.

 

Well wait a sec, do you feel you should and can go **** yourself?

 

If yes then my reply wasn't far off. And if no, well then my reply wasn't far off.

 

But again, you're right I don't know you and these are items only you can answer and deal with.

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I absolutely see what youre saying, but thats not how most people work, especially classically trained keyboard players.

No, that's how 'an organist" works and even if you want to pretend to be one you should grasp these basics.

The OP said he is mostly a pianist. Maybe he just wants to enjoy playing organ with some sounds he likes. Not everybody who wants to drive needs to learn how to drive a stick in order get where they want to go.

 

Musicians worth a spit know their instrument (the rest can go **** themselves).

And I suppose Paul McCartney is worthless as a songwriter because he can't read music? Ian Anderson made a career of playing flute, and he didn't know the correct fingerings until the 90s. You don't need to know every aspect of a craft to be able to do something worthwhile with it. Or to enjoy it.

 

Question, do you think Mathew Fisher: A) doesn't know how the Hammond DB system works, sounds, and plays?, B) doesn't change his DB settings in performance? and C) got this 'setting' from someone else?

You think he skipped all this and 'played a preset', or did HE DIAL IT UP TO FIT THE TONE, FEEL/VIBE, OF THE TUNE? What makes you think you can skip all of this?

We can skip all this (i.e. figuring out what would be a good sound for Whiter Shade of Pale) because he already did it. And for people doing covers, knowing what he ended up using may be as much about it as they need/care to know.

 

And if the paint-by-numbers doesn't work, what then?

Won't happen. If you've got the right organ registration for the cover you're doing, you'll be as close as you need to be. Which is related to this:

 

From the vintage synths to VSTs I can't tell you how many poorly programmed "Jump" patches I've had to tweak to sound/match better.

If that gives you joy, wonderful. But with any pro board, even the worst factory "Jump" sound is going to be close and recognizable enough to keep the audience happy.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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The OP said he is mostly a pianist. Maybe he just wants to enjoy playing organ with some sounds he likes. Not everybody who wants to drive needs to learn how to drive a stick in order get where they want to go.

 

OP asks about 'db setting". Honest answer on the question was sent (by me and many). Essentially, what you're saying is rather meaningless in regard (but certainly 'nice', I'll give ya that!).

 

And I suppose Paul McCartney is worthless as a songwriter because he can't read music?

 

Oh, we're on to bringing up a Beatle now? Random, but Ok.

No, Paul knows his instrument(s).

 

Ian Anderson made a career of playing flute, and he didn't know the correct fingerings until the 90s. You don't need to know every aspect of a craft to be able to do something worthwhile with it. Or to enjoy it.

 

(see response on Paul M. above)

 

... snip, blah-blah, snip ...and recognizable enough to keep the audience happy

 

Yay! Mediocrity reigns supreme!

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Yay! Mediocrity reigns supreme!

If I have some spare time at my keyboards, personally, there are things I'd much rather do than tweak my board's Jump sound. But to each his own.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I enter this thread with a degree of trepidation, but here goes...

 

I don't think "being told how to" is an alternative to "working it out yourself". It is possible to learn by example. For instance: I would never have worked out Bill Evans' rootless LH piano voicings that we all use. But having seen them in Mark Levine's book, and then trying them myself, I had a lightbulb moment: that's how jazz cats get that floating, slightly unsettled harmonic quality. Another example (that I posted about here): one theory for Fm7 chord in "Sir Duke" works is that it's the relative minor of the VI7 chord. (I might have worked that one out myself, but I hadn't by the time it was explained to me).

 

And so it is (for me, and presumably the OP) with Hammond drawbar settings. "Try 800000008 for a reggae bubble": another lightbulb, plus a note to self: careful as to which register to use on the instrument. I'll never be an organist of the calibre of (say) Joey D or Jim Alfredson, but I hope I can learn something by understanding what they do.

 

Cheers, Mike.

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If I have some spare time at my keyboards, personally, there are things I'd much rather do than tweak my board's Jump sound. But to each his own.

 

Cool, I hope so! "Spare time" to really learn your instrument is better than time wasted (imo).

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And so it is (for me, and presumably the OP) with Hammond drawbar settings. "Try 800000008 for a reggae bubble"

 

And on another night or another organ/leslie it might be 828000040. Ya just never know (but you can plan ahead for it).

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Completely off topic but it's sort of related to the side arguments that be a flying .....

 

I talked to Goldie once about the first Steppenwolf album and trying to get the organ grind like he got on the record and talked about how it seem like a really tough thing to find .... Regardless of him using a Lowery rig. Something he reminded me of that I still lose sight of is tone is not just a matter of mashing the gas and pulling tonebars. The Leslie also reacts differently according to your chord voicing and how many and WHICH notes to send through it.

 

The man was a genius. I miss that man.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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not just a matter of mashing the gas and pulling tonebars. The Leslie also reacts differently according to your chord voicing and how many and WHICH notes to send through it.

 

The man was a genius. I miss that man.

 

NOT off-topic (at all actually). He knew his instrument as well.

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