Xk5 with vent or c3 with 21h

[kwyn]

I have the opportunity to pick up a c3 in average condition with a 21h also in average condition (single speed).

 

I was also pondering an xk5. let's just say that the deal I'm getting, the xk5 would cost significantly more.

 

It would obviously be awesome to have the real deal, but I'd never be able to gig or rehearse with it. My kids and I would be the only ones to ever hear it.

 

How good is the xk5 with vent 2(which I already have)?

 

Would you guys regret never owning a true console if you had an xk5?

 

I could use my numa compact 2x or NE5 as a lower manual.

[Doerfler]

21H is a great sounding leslie. You will get as many different opinions about what you should do as there are people who will respond. Were it me, I would get the C3 and leslie. You already have a NE5 for gigging, right?

[RobPlaysKeys]

Some what you will have to decide on is how much space/weight you want to deal with.

 

Obviously if the C3 and Leslie is going to be cheaper for you, and the C3 doesn't need work... that's certainly the better deal of the two.

 

However, if you say you won't ever gig it and it will just be sitting at home, I guess you have to decide if it is worth it or not to just have it at home.

[Quai34]

When I was younger, I had always wanted to have a real Hammond plus Lesloe but for me, it's a shame to NOT play for people a such lovely instrument Sov not giging with it is heart breaking....

Then, as here is so many very good clones nowadays and taking into account hat you already gphave the best Leslie Sim available, I would put aside the C3 option and save for clone....but maybe not the Hammond clone, I think they are really expensive compared to the other clones...

[Delaware Dave]

Here's my two cents, take it for what it's worth. Clones have gotten the basic hammond tone right, usually the wild cards are C/V, percussion, overdrive and leslie sim. Nothing beats a real leslie. Often times a bad real leslie is better than a good leslie sim. I'd focus on getting the real leslie. The 21h is a great leslie. You can always convert it to a two speed if you want. If you have a real leslie I dont think you'll find a big difference between an XK5 and a C3 going through the 21h. You'll find a bigger difference between the vent and the 21h then you will between the XK5 and a C3. The C/V, percussion and basic tone of the XK5 is excellent, run through a real leslie sounds very very good.

[Jim Alfredson]

If you don't own a real console and you love Hammond, you probably should get the C3 and Leslie. The 21H is one of my favorite Leslies of all time and a C3 is a beautiful organ.

 

However, if you make your money gigging, the XK5 is an absolute beast. You don't need the Vent.

[CEB]

Don't convert the 21h to 2 speed. You'll just want to unplug the slow motors anyway.

[Outkaster]

Also remember when you take on a real rig you take on often a lot of work. All of these organs are old and need things like recapping, buss bar lubes, pre-amp work and a whole other set of problems. Very rarely are they really read to go. Same with the Leslie; new belts, drivers, bearings, motors calibrated, etc. It's not always bad but everyone wants a console and Leslie but doesn't think about the work needed to keep it going. Also consider Delaware Dave's points above. Be prepared to lose money, it's like restoring a classic car. I saw what Sal would go through along with Tom Petro first hand. Wes and Todd may want to weigh in when they see the thread.

[kwyn]

That's a good point. I don't have any electronics know how. I more just want to play. Maintenance like oiling is fine but I know nothing of bus bars, recapping, and taking electronics apart. That being said everything sounded great aside from a loose connection on the Leslie socket on the organ

[bourniplus]

As others said, and if the seller is ready to sell only the Leslie, you might get only that. And start looking for an A100 so you'll have reverb.

Yes they require some maintenance but I'd say it's not too bad. You could have the amps recapped by someone else. For playing at home for enjoyment, I'd choose the real tonewheel organ with dirty busbars and old keyboard felts over any clone. Just my 2c.

[kwyn]

How much does recapping cost? Other regular maintenance aside from oiling? Just ballpark figures.

[Doerfler]

Don't convert the 21h to 2 speed. You'll just want to unplug the slow motors anyway.

 

Agreed. I have had the slow rotors unplugged from my 142 for many years.

[bourniplus]

How much does recapping cost? Just ballpark figures.

For a start you can look at the kits that are sold to replace the electrolytic caps for an AO28 and a 21H amp. Then there is the installation, so it depends on: would the tech have to go to your house to get the amps? (requires desoldering in the case of the AO28). Which then depends on where you live. If there is still a Hammond tech you might give him a call.

[BluesB3]

Even if the C3 is cheaper it may end up being more expensive initially (after refurb) than the clone. But that's alright! IMHO as long as you can stay in the final outlay range of $3500-4000 you won't get hurt on the C3 and 21H. Research the prices of 5-8 year old clones and see how they hold their value.

 

All that said, there's a couple of other factors not yet mentioned.

 

What kind of gig venues do you play? Is there room for a Hammond and a Leslie? Figure on another $350 at least for RoK's and it ain't bad to have a refrigerator dolly for the Les if you ever encounter stairs.

 

What's your transpo situation? Have you got a van? Back in California, I had a 4Runner that could tow 7300# so if I had a trailer, I could have gigged with my B3 and 145. The problem was I lived in a townhome complex and there weren't enough parking spaces for cars much less cargo trailers. My compromise was bringing the 145 (upright) in the 4R and running my Electro61 through it when possible.

 

Lastly how much can you depend on your bandmates for loadin and loadout?

 

My opinion is you can't go wrong buying a real Hammond for the right money as long as it's not seriously dogged out. As has been said here many times... "ain't nothin' like the real thing baby"

 

 

[Doerfler]

OP stated in his OP

 

It would obviously be awesome to have the real deal, but I'd never be able to gig or rehearse with it.

[WesG]

Many people who think Hammonds are ungiggable simply have never tried hard enough. With the right planning, vehicle and ROKs, it is quite easy to gig an organ in a club with a wheelchair-accessible stage.

 

Even 2 steps is easy. My limit, with my ramp, is 4. This is seldom a problem for me.

[Paughrock]

Many people who think Hammonds are ungiggable simply have never tried hard enough. With the right planning, vehicle and ROKs, it is quite easy to gig an organ in a club with a wheelchair-accessible stage.

 

Even 2 steps is easy. My limit, with my ramp, is 4. This is seldom a problem for me.

 

Many people who have tried to gig with Hammonds in their youth now struggle to get out of bed in the morning, and spend a considerable portion of their disposable income on chiropractic bills.

[lightbg]

Many people who think Hammonds are ungiggable simply have never tried hard enough. With the right planning, vehicle and ROKs, it is quite easy to gig an organ in a club with a wheelchair-accessible stage.

 

Even 2 steps is easy. My limit, with my ramp, is 4. This is seldom a problem for me.

 

Many people who have tried to gig with Hammonds in their youth now struggle to get out of bed in the morning, and spend a considerable portion of their disposable income on chiropractic bills.

 

+1

 

Having the real deal is heaven, however, if if wasn't for my NE4D and QSC's I wouldn't be gigging. Years of bouncing 122's off my knees have taken their toll, and I sold my ROK's years ago. The fact that I can go downstairs and enjoy my setup without moving anything is a total pleasure.

 

 

Jake

[kwyn]

After decades of yearning and using clones and modules, always envious of real A/B/C owners, I am now the happy owner of a 1959 C3!!! (And 21H Leslie)

 

 

[mate stubb]

[WheelHead]

 

Would you guys regret never owning a true console if you had an xk5?

 

I would go XK5 of the two. (and there are other choices but this is not the point of the thread)

 

If it were in the gigging realm: 'Nobody cares'...imo ... . the band may care, the keyboardist/organist may care but I doubt if even one person in some audiences (unless you hit on a musician) today knows what a 3series B3,A100,C3 is and they will not be able to hear the difference to a 1st class clone to a B3 and never say, "man I am real glad I came to this venue the band is using a REAL B3 and it sounds way better!!"

 

You're entertaining yourself with the notion though you will not be lugging it.

 

These discussions usually involve a hypothetical B3/other console that just sounds great. Truth is, imo, they all sound different. Some out there need a total rebuild and sound like crap. A musician who is also a tech is more likely to be able to tweak a B3, imo, to sound it's best (or spend a lot of money unless your lucky and if you are lucky the quality may not last long before the gooey-foam and aging take its place)

 

An XK5 could sound better. It's tweaked already to sound like a top rate B3.

 

When I first gigged with a B3 years ago my friends knew what it was, their parents and all musicians (obviously) - I bet if you went into a room full of Millennials, say, of 30 people today maybe 1 person (or a couple) may know what a "B3" is.

 

It would be an interesting poll.

 

If you are into vintage collectables, famous original instruments, grandfather clocks, etc - go for the very old (most tonewheels are 50+ years old except the last ones made and that's approaching 50)

 

Also in the home environment the B3 p**es-off the wife (or husband) about its size. Its very common. An XK5 can be moved around a lot easier.

 

I don't subscribe to the 'groupthink' of the marked superior tone of a mechanical organ today though the sentimentality of it I can understand. Was certainly true at one time. Most of those who subscribe to this, imo, might fail a 'behind the curtain' audio test. (it was done before with Diversi a while back and most failed though there are other factors like 'keyboard feel'-'drawbar feel', etc)

 

The videos available comparing the XK5 and the "real-deal" I have seen and are impressive, also.

 

WH

[Doerfler]

what Moe said.

[bourniplus]

I am now the happy owner of a 1959 C3!!! (And 21H Leslie)

Congrats!!! Glad to hear that!

[JoJoB3]

Many people who think Hammonds are ungiggable simply have never tried hard enough. With the right planning, vehicle and ROKs, it is quite easy to gig an organ in a club with a wheelchair-accessible stage.

 

Even 2 steps is easy. My limit, with my ramp, is 4. This is seldom a problem for me.

 

Lot of truth to that (even without wheelchair ramps or access stages).

I can roll in the A1xx or B3, 122, pedals, bench and be setup before the drummer. a single leslie and pwr cable and done. I find the loading of the pedals the toughest part really.

 

Needs: cargo van or like capable, a set of ROK, and a dolly for leslie (air fill tires are better), and auto-repair know how doesn't hurt either .

 

*To this day I pref the older dodge 6-cyls (like the caravan 1st and 2nd gens), but we've even made their 3rd gen on up work. Dodge imo have the lowest load point (via side slide door) making things easier.

I keep an old '87 Royal Mini Ram van (cargo, 6-cyl, 3-spd trans) running like a top as the local Ham hauler. SUPER easy to repair, in fact just put a new water pump, tensioner, and timing belt on it 2-days ago. A big 3500 V8 15-pass for long runs, not as easy to maintain as it's heavy duty across the board but I manage.

 

I've loaded a full ham rig alone (so) many times...it would be impossible to count, but usually I always have a helping hand.

 

 

** Chev Astros, Fords, etc have a higher load point (side door) making it tougher but a ramp brought along can aid with that.

 

But compared to my clone choice (currently staying w XK3 w lwr manual, and midi-fied real pedals) the clone takes longer to setup :S. Stand, load cases, do all cables/connections, perform, undo all, pack up, load each in, repeat. Not bad for a few 1-offs but really rolling in the real deal is actually easier (and always faster).

 

Also, there still is no comparing the real deal rigs with any of the clones. We can really only compare between clones. The real rig is better playing/sounding 98% of the time.

 

 

 

[JoJoB3]

btw, If that 21H has the field coil bass woof then even better.

 

However, the 22H is my fav of the single spd leslies (40-watt).

[DenCV]

I have the opportunity to pick up a c3 in average condition with a 21h also in average condition (single speed).

 

I was also pondering an xk5. let's just say that the deal I'm getting, the xk5 would cost significantly more.

 

It would obviously be awesome to have the real deal, but I'd never be able to gig or rehearse with it. My kids and I would be the only ones to ever hear it.

 

How good is the xk5 with vent 2(which I already have)?

 

Would you guys regret never owning a true console if you had an xk5?

 

I could use my numa compact 2x or NE5 as a lower manual.

 

I have a real deal console down in my studio. I've also gigged with a ton of clones, trading them in for better all the time. I have the console and the XK5 in the studio, each ready to play at all times. All I can say is every other clone I had, I couldn't play the console for a couple days before the clone gig or I'd be spoiled, and not enjoy the clone. With the XK5 (I'm using internal sim, tweaked) it really is rare that I turn on the console. Other clones sounded close, but the feel just wasn't there, and after playing them, then going to the real deal, I'd be like no way is this close. The XK5, it's there. If the console crapped out, I doubt I'd replace it. If I had to pick one or the other, it'd be the XK5. The console'll stay just because it'd be a royal pain to haul up out of the basement studio. And it is fun to play every once and a while. But I honestly enjoy the XK5 more. I have a few leslies tweaked out in it, and a few different organs, including something real similar sounding to my console. Keep in mind I've never recorded on anything except the real thing through a real leslie, with the exception of a couple tracks I used SK2 on only because I knew I wasn't gonna get a better solo than the first take, which was on the SK because of bleed through problems on the session. I have about 5 vintage tube guitar amps, a ton of vintage keys, and three tube leslies down here. I am as old school as you can get. I've been messing around with old tracks, replacing the real organ tracks with the XK5/internal sim, and the sound is there. I'm totally happy with mine. A word of warning though, if you go two manual XK5/XLK5 like I did, it's pretty heavy and big for gigging, not the type of thing you toss in the back of the car for a jam. And they don't separate as easily as you think.