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IEMs and Feedback?


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One of our singers is just coming back on to the stage after having had to take ~6 months off due to a concussion. It's been a long slow road for her.

 

She has lots of "modifications" that we're going to employ to lessen the load - strategically place songs to allow her some breaks, a tall chair with a back on the stage so she can sit from time to time (messed up her balance), etc.

 

One objection is stage noise. She was talking to me about musicians' ear plugs (I have the molded/fitted ones with 9dB filters), but I complained that even those tend to cut out too much sound. However, our stage volume is pretty brutal.

I suggested Inner Ear Monitors - really good ones which would block sound but allow her to have her mix. She said she'd considered those, but every now and again we'll have a feedback squeal through the monitors and she's afraid one of those would all but kill her. We have a program that goes through and dampens feedback frequencies at the beginning of the show, but inevitably someone will get careless with a handheld mic and SCREEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Are there safeguards for IEMs to prevent frying ones gray matter or causing busted eardrums? I'm interested in all options - from homegrown to cutting-edge.

 

Thanks!

Muzikteechur is Lonnie, in Kittery, Maine.

 

HS music teacher: Concert Band, Marching Band, Jazz Band, Chorus, Music Theory, AP Music Theory, History of Rock, Musical Theatre, Piano, Guitar, Drama.

 

 

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It seems to me the best way around that is everyone use IEM monitors. No monitor speakers, no feedback. Because feedback also pisses off the audience. One band I'm involved in everything goes into the board and they use electronic drums. IEM's and 2 small monitor speakers for the instruments. The stage volume is perfect, I can hear every instrument at decent volumes and my vocal mix is how I want it.

 

I play in another band with amps and wedge monitors. The stage volume invariably starts out okay then creeps up as the guitarist and the drummer battle for sonic supremacy! I'm getting so over it.

Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12

Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell

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If she doesn't move around stage much, she could try an inexpensive wired in-ear system like the Behringer Powerplay P2. It has built-in limiting and you can get one (without the earbuds) for less than $50. I use a similar unit from Fischer Amps, but I have a Behringer P2 as a backup. This would let her see if she likes it before springing for a more expensive wireless system.

Live: Yamaha S70XS (#1); Roland Jupiter-80; Mackie 1202VLZ4: IEMs or Traynor K4

Home: Hammond SK Pro 73; Moog Minimoog Voyager Electric Blue; Yamaha S70XS (#2); Wurlitzer 200A

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Since I play keys, and dont move around, I use a wired IEM set up. A Rolls monitor mixer allows me to have separate volume controls for keys and an aux monitor mix from FOH. Has built in limiting. Never had a issue. Just make sure any limiter youre using is meant to be used for in ear monitoring. Should have a fast attack time to eliminate any spikes, pops, etc, as well as feedback.
I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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This also looks like a good idea.

 

What is PreservEar in a nutshell? A compact limiter solution for DJs & Musicians who are looking to protect and preserve their most valuable asses their hearing.

 

http://preservear.com/

aka âmisterdregsâ

 

Nord Electro 5D 73

Yamaha P105

Kurzweil PC3LE7

Motion Sound KP200S

Schimmel 6-10LE

QSC CP-12

Westone AM Pro 30 IEMs

Rolls PM55P

 

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This also looks like a good idea.

 

What is PreservEar in a nutshell? A compact limiter solution for DJs & Musicians who are looking to protect and preserve their most valuable asses their hearing.

 

http://preservear.com/

 

I presume the part about protecting your ass is a typo. LOL

aka âmisterdregsâ

 

Nord Electro 5D 73

Yamaha P105

Kurzweil PC3LE7

Motion Sound KP200S

Schimmel 6-10LE

QSC CP-12

Westone AM Pro 30 IEMs

Rolls PM55P

 

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Most definitely I'd want a limiter with my pack/unit...but honestly the stage volume being brutal is the underlying "problem". I can't remember the last time I heard feedback, we keep volume quite low (as it can be with an acoustic drummer).

 

That said, limiters also hopefully help with other nasty things like mic drops, cable shorts etc.

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Yep. All of the above. The best solution is minimize the risk at the source. But Id also never want to play without insurance, aka limiter. I already have permanent tinnitus from pre IEM days. Dont want to make it worse.
I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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I see lots of discussion, but the question is this: do IEMs have built-in limiters, or does that have to happen at the sound board?

 

Muzikteechur is Lonnie, in Kittery, Maine.

 

HS music teacher: Concert Band, Marching Band, Jazz Band, Chorus, Music Theory, AP Music Theory, History of Rock, Musical Theatre, Piano, Guitar, Drama.

 

 

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I did a quick search for you at a major online retailer. They listed 39 different IEM systems offered. I did a quick look at representative systems from each of the manufacturers, and only 1 brand did not have limiting function built in...or, at least not in the description on the web page.

 

Shure, Sennheiser, Audio Technica and Behringer products all appear to have limiting built-in.

 

Of course, this was just a quick search, you want to do full research of your own before purchase, etc. But it does suggest the major brands see limiting as a necessary thing.

..
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I see lots of discussion, but the question is this: do IEMs have built-in limiters, or does that have to happen at the sound board?

 

Usually the limiter is built into the IEM transmitter/receiver. For instance on my Shure PSM200 system, the belt pack that the IEM's plug into has a built in limiter. I'm assuming she would want to go wireless and most wireless systems should have a limiter. Where you get into dangerous territory is just using something like a headphone amp. In that case you need a separate limiter.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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It does bring up an interesting point--if your monitor feed has a limiter on it *internally* in the console, or for that matter if there are external limiters on the monitor outs--does that negate the need for a physical limiter closer to your ears? Our bass player/soundguy brought that up once, he owned and used a QSC touchmix with internal fx including limiters. Obviously there are still a couple physical connections after the sound leaves the console. It was a moot point in any case since all the headphone packs/amps I own have limiters, but I am a bit curious. Also fwiw I run wired IEMs straight from the console, which is on-stage with us.
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Stokely,

 

My answer would be 'no'. My reasoning is that I want to be ultimately in control of protecting my ears. No one else is to blame if it goes sideways, and there are all manner of things that can go wrong in a live stage setting.

 

With the case you're mentioning, I don't want to trust the sound guy to make sure 1) the limiter is engaged and 2) it's set with appropriate thresholds to not let the momentary shriek into my feed and cause irreparable damage.

 

Basically, after I read the Gino Vanelli story I won't stick anything in my ears if there isn't some sort of limiter built-in.

 

It only takes one transient. I want my brick wall limiter to be the last thing in the chain before the headphone jack. There's too much to lose.

 

Tim

..
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Very good point. I have a good friend that got his ears blown out at a church gig--mixing, not playing with iems--but it was a horrifying thing. He was on headphones, someone had wired something up incorrectly, and he got blasted. He'll never mix and can't really even play his guitar as everything he hears is permanently muffled.

 

I recently got a Behringer p2, and it's such a perfect little device for my needs--but I do worry that a $39 product might not have a top-of-the-line limiter in it....

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I've been subbing with a band that's decided it's ok to have a bass guitar amp and a guitar amp and acoustic drums, but my keys can't have a monitor and must be IEM. The only way it can work is everything is silent- no amps and electronic drums. I've done several casino gigs in that format lately and it does work. Why we keyboardists are considered to be not the same as bass and guitar is beyond me. We must have amps also. I'm thinking about turning down any future gigs- I also have enough of them with real bands that have no weird issues like this anyway.
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I haven't played thru an amp on stage in about 12 years.

 

I am always on ears, with a limiter, and my keys go directly to FOH/MOnitor desk.

 

I monitor my own keys and vox. FOH/Monitor desk just sends me what I want from the band. I use the Rolls PM351, so my keys, vox, and rest of band have their own volume controls That I can adjust.

 

 

 

 

 

 

David

Gig Rig:Casio Privia PX-5S | Yamaha MODX+ 6 | MacBook Pro 14" M1| Mainstage

 

 

 

 

 

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I've been subbing with a band that's decided it's ok to have a bass guitar amp and a guitar amp and acoustic drums, but my keys can't have a monitor and must be IEM.

 

:freak: Oh, well. A gig is a gig.

Live: Yamaha S70XS (#1); Roland Jupiter-80; Mackie 1202VLZ4: IEMs or Traynor K4

Home: Hammond SK Pro 73; Moog Minimoog Voyager Electric Blue; Yamaha S70XS (#2); Wurlitzer 200A

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I haven't played thru an amp on stage in about 12 years.

 

I am always on ears, with a limiter, and my keys go directly to FOH/MOnitor desk.

 

I monitor my own keys and vox. FOH/Monitor desk just sends me what I want from the band. I use the Rolls PM351, so my keys, vox, and rest of band have their own volume controls That I can adjust.

Same. Works the charm, easy set up too.

I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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I've been subbing with a band that's decided it's ok to have a bass guitar amp and a guitar amp and acoustic drums, but my keys can't have a monitor and must be IEM. The only way it can work is everything is silent- no amps and electronic drums. I've done several casino gigs in that format lately and it does work. Why we keyboardists are considered to be not the same as bass and guitar is beyond me. We must have amps also. I'm thinking about turning down any future gigs- I also have enough of them with real bands that have no weird issues like this anyway.

 

Well, with guitar and bass, the amp is part of the sound. You can't just plug a guitar direct into the PA. Of course there are amp modelers you can get but they don't sound or respond the same way. Definitely can't get guitar feedback without an amp. Even in bands I've played in where everybody was on IEM's, they still used amps for the instruments to get he sound. IEM's are always my preferred way to monitor, as long as I can get a good mix.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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I haven't played thru an amp on stage in about 12 years.

 

I am always on ears, with a limiter, and my keys go directly to FOH/MOnitor desk.

 

I monitor my own keys and vox. FOH/Monitor desk just sends me what I want from the band. I use the Rolls PM351, so my keys, vox, and rest of band have their own volume controls That I can adjust.

 

David - Am I understanding correctly that the Rolls PM351 has a limiter built in or do you have an additional limiter between the PM351 and your IEMs? I have this same Rolls box but have not needed it for gigs until just recently - my band is talking about going all IEMs so Im wondering if I need to buy anything additional before plugging my Shure IEMs into the 1/8 jack on here to protect myself. Appreciate any additional insight. Thanks!

Kurzweil Forte,Roland Fantom 6,Hydrasynth,Numa C2X, SpaceStation V.3, other stuffs

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No built-in limiter on the PM351. Meanwhile the cheaper and less capable PM55P I own does have one. I would never use in-ears without limiting. I have no personal experience with this piece but it can probably be interfaced between your Rolls and your ears  and it clips to your belt and give you a limiter and a volume control, which might be useful: Behringer P1

 

I've been subbing with a band that's decided it's ok to have a bass guitar amp and a guitar amp and acoustic drums, but my keys can't have a monitor and must be IEM. The only way it can work is everything is silent- no amps and electronic drums. I've done several casino gigs in that format lately and it does work. Why we keyboardists are considered to be not the same as bass and guitar is beyond me. We must have amps also. I'm thinking about turning down any future gigs- I also have enough of them with real bands that have no weird issues like this anyway.

I'll just add to the chorus here and say you're better off. From my perspective as an old fart, with hearing damage, having those ears in is a godsend. Their job #1 is to be earplugs that tame the stage volume, since I too work with a band that uses wedges and amps. I disagree that keyboardists must have amps good full range in-ears work great for most keys or synth sounds, the possible exception being a rhodes or wurly through a guitar amp. It definitely takes some getting used to (for me anyway) but I'm way happier with my keyboard sound and I have my own dedicated level control that doesn't affect anyone else.

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On my SHURE PSM200, there is a limiter but my new Soprno needs to learn about it because last time she noticed that the sound was cut....She was saturating a lot the out'put section and was not paying attention to the red light....

But on my Art My Monitor II, there is no limiter, how could I add one just before my 1/8" jack?

Stage 2, C2, NL2X+TC Pedals, P08+Tetra+H9, P12+TC Chorus D50+PG1000, 2 Matrix 1K, Proteus 2K, TX802, Streichfett, Drumbrute. Guitars:G&L Legacy, Asat X2, Ibanez Artstar AS153.Bass: L2000, SR1200&2605.
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Proper gain staging is your friend.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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No built-in limiter on the PM351. Meanwhile the cheaper and less capable PM55P I own does have one. I would never use in-ears without limiting. I have no personal experience with this piece but it can probably be interfaced between your Rolls and your ears  and it clips to your belt and give you a limiter and a volume control, which might be useful: Behringer P1

Sorry, cancel that - this guy has XLR inputs. It would take a bulky adapter & cable setup to wire the headphone output of the Rolls to this.

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Reezekeys - thanks for the reply ... Im wondering then what David uses for limiter along with the Rolls PM351 ... he seems to get his rig as streamlined as Ive seen anyone so would be great to know what extra piece of kit he is using ... Im sure he will chime in once his coffee kicks in lol ....

Kurzweil Forte,Roland Fantom 6,Hydrasynth,Numa C2X, SpaceStation V.3, other stuffs

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