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Re: Moog Matriarch
Phil Aiken #2987310 04/29/19 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted By: marino
Sounds and looks very promising! 4 VCOs ?! Stereo ladder filters, 2 lfos, 2 ADSRs, analog delay... and a *lot* of possibilities to patch things creatively. The first "modern" Moog which really intrigues me.
Now, I just hope that sound quality will be on par with its features.


I think you will find plenty of personality in the sound. To my ears the Grandmother (and now the Matriarch) benefit from the drifty oscillator influence and the CP3 mixer topology from the Moog Modular. Imagine a continuum, with the sub series as the most precise sounding Moogs, the phatty and voyager in the middle, and the grandmother/matriarch as the most characterful/drifty. As a corollary, I speculate they are slightly sensitive to heat variations, hence the lump in line power system. However with that, you get more of the old school personality, which can range from raw to delicately airy, depending on gainstaging and detuning.

The CP3 mixer is not expensive in components but to fans of the Moog sound, it has lots of character:

Originally Posted By: Phil Aiken
To me, it sounds more like old-school Moog modular than a Mini, or the newer synths.


thu

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Re: Moog Matriarch
Tusker #2987312 04/29/19 10:14 AM
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Jerry, youve nailed the magic key to the unique characteristics of Grandmother/Matriarch/Modular!

And, good call on the heat sensitivity as the reason for external power supply!


Last edited by jimkost2002; 04/29/19 12:57 PM.

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Re: Moog Matriarch
jimkost2002 #2987358 04/29/19 06:03 PM
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Thanks Jim. smile

There have been a number of good demos coming out in the last few days with a wide variety of timbres. To me, this excellent demo by Lisa Bella Donna, shows off the big, open, full range sound which we often associate with the Moog Modulars.



A higher resolution audio is available here.
https://lisabelladonna.bandcamp.com/album/afternoon-dreams
Just click on Starchild Warrior Cats.

Re: Moog Matriarch
Tusker #2987360 04/29/19 06:07 PM
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She speaks to the question of drift and tuning stability in the comments section of the video ...

It's true analog, so yes sometimes you will have to roll with the drifting of the tuning tides.I feel grateful to not have had much trouble with these live at both indoor and outdoor gigs. Compared to using my vintage stuff live. I don't mind where the master tune knob is. Truth is when I allow mine to properly warm up for 15 to 20 minutes, I never have to touch it. I realize live gigs don't always allow that. I mean before the Grandmothers came out, I had bought a pair of Roland Se02... (giggles and shakes head). I had not realized JUST HOW SMALL those things were. Trying to use those things live was a disaster. You'd switch a waveform and knock the entire synth out of tune. So, when I brought the GMA back from Moogfest last year I've never stoped playing it. SO many sessions and gigs with it. So reliable. The Matriarch is on the level, it's just a great expansion with new sound possibilities. The filter alone on it is enough to hook you when it's under your hands.

Re: Moog Matriarch
Tusker #2987547 04/30/19 07:02 PM
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Ok, some more demos have appeared - and with the exception of one small segment, they all deal with paraphony, the sequencer, interval playing... now, I am just not interested in paraphony; for that, I have *polyphonic* synthesizers! And step sequencers can be a lot of fun, but even when they are ultra-sophisticated like this one, they can easily become boring after a while - to me at least.
Folks, this is the first (non-modular) Moog ever with 4 VCOs! I want to hear interesting mono 4-osc patches, all with all those sync options... mmm. And someone who can *play* them in real time! It's that too much to expect?

Btw - what can be guessed under the surface is a very powerful musical heart. In case you haven't guessed, I have a big case of GAS for this thing. It could be the best Moog synth ever.

Re: Moog Matriarch
Tusker #2987550 04/30/19 07:38 PM
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Jerry - thanks a lot! I had not realized that the Matriarch mixer was based on the CP-3. Another world of possibilities! Also, the video does an excellent job of showing and explaining the very peculiar behavior of the CP-3.

Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
good call on the heat sensitivity as the reason for external power supply!

I'm still not convinced that an internal PSU couldn't be designed and built for a synth like the Matriarch, but these considerations make me a bit more tolerant towards the adoption of the external one.

Originally Posted By: JerryA
I mean before the Grandmothers came out, I had bought a pair of Roland Se02... (giggles and shakes head). I had not realized JUST HOW SMALL those things were. Trying to use those things live was a disaster. You'd switch a waveform and knock the entire synth out of tune.

Trying to tweak an SE-02 on stage gives you free admission to the kamikaze club. I have had a couple of encounters with it, and while I loved the sound, I also found the small and packed knobs infuriating. Pratically, I found it impossible to tweak it without bumping *every time* against some neighboring knob.

Re: Moog Matriarch
marino #2987988 05/03/19 09:38 AM
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Not trying to put a damper on this but I seem to be reading a lot of complaints regarding midi with the Grandmother, Reissue MM and One. Granted they may be unrelated and even unfounded but it does raise concerns. Anyone using one of these with local off for example? This seems to be a common issue.

Re: Moog Matriarch
Markyboard #2987990 05/03/19 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Not trying to put a damper on this but I seem to be reading a lot of complaints regarding midi with the Grandmother


She has arthritis.


When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray.
Re: Moog Matriarch
marino #2987993 05/03/19 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted By: marino


Originally Posted By: JerryA
I mean before the Grandmothers came out, I had bought a pair of Roland Se02... (giggles and shakes head). I had not realized JUST HOW SMALL those things were. Trying to use those things live was a disaster. You'd switch a waveform and knock the entire synth out of tune.

Trying to tweak an SE-02 on stage gives you free admission to the kamikaze club. I have had a couple of encounters with it, and while I loved the sound, I also found the small and packed knobs infuriating. Pratically, I found it impossible to tweak it without bumping *every time* against some neighboring knob.


I also found this to be the case a few months ago when trying one out at GC. Right below it however was a Behringer Model D which while not luxurious was never frustrating. Its knob spacing/size is more in line with typical Eurorack modules.

Re: Moog Matriarch
Markyboard #2988005 05/03/19 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Not trying to put a damper on this but I seem to be reading a lot of complaints regarding midi with the Grandmother, Reissue MM and One. Granted they may be unrelated and even unfounded but it does raise concerns. Anyone using one of these with local off for example? This seems to be a common issue.


I've also read complaints about the Grandmother power supply - audio bleed issue in particular. One guy even said the plug didn't fit into the GM jack (I'll ignore the lame jokes).

Another common complaint was the spring reverb when using the GM in a band context - eg. the drummer setting it off.

But I also heard most of the issues were resolved in later units?

Re: Moog Matriarch
GovernorSilver #2988009 05/03/19 11:07 AM
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Thanks Paolo. Its always a challenge to filter out the one-off type problems. The midi issues seem to be the recurring concern across products.

Regarding the reverb "problem" I also heard about similar issues with snare drums. roll

Re: Moog Matriarch
Markyboard #2988047 05/03/19 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
The midi issues seem to be the recurring concern across products.

Could you elaborate a bit on that, Mark? What kind of midi issues?

Re: Moog Matriarch
marino #2988050 05/03/19 01:48 PM
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Thread about GM vs. Pyramid MIDI problem - the Squarp Pyramid is a sequencer I've been looking at:

https://squarp.community/t/still-midi-in-problems-with-moog-grandmother/2131

"electric incompatibility"? Perhaps a language/translation issue there.

Anyway, one user says inserting a MIDI Solutions Quadra Thru between the two solved the problem.

Re: Moog Matriarch
GovernorSilver #2988052 05/03/19 01:50 PM
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Re: Moog Matriarch
GovernorSilver #2988058 05/03/19 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver


Yes- this last one is my biggest concern. I may have read similar comments on GS.

Re: Moog Matriarch
Markyboard #2988065 05/03/19 03:15 PM
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Thanks a lot, Mark and Paolo. The MIDI local issue sounds serious enough... I surely hope that they haven't replicated it on the Matriarch.

Re: Moog Matriarch
marino #2988131 05/04/19 02:13 AM
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Yikes. Not having reliable MIDI would be a dealbreaker for me too. Let's hope they get the problems fixed. They have been good to do so with past synths had issues.

Meanwhile, synth maestro Daniel Fisher has a front panel overview, with the promise of an audio demo to come ...


Re: Moog Matriarch
Tusker #2988137 05/04/19 03:33 AM
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Hopefully somebody at Superbooth 2019 (starts next week I think) will think to investigate the state of the Matriarch MIDI. Moog Music will be one of the exhibitors.

Re: Moog Matriarch
GovernorSilver #3026562 01/29/20 05:01 PM
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As requested on the "Your Latest Purchase" thread I put together a short demo comparing the Matriarch to the Mini. Included description (on Youtube) should tell the rest.


Re: Moog Matriarch
GRollins #3026594 01/29/20 06:58 PM
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Thanks. That was interesting. The Matriarch almost sounds "scooped in the midrange" compared to the Mini, like a Fender amp compared to an Ampeg (different tone stacks in that case, instead of oscillators, but the sonic result is similar). Or, alternatively, you could say that the Minimoog sounds fatter or thicker. I can see that both would have their uses.

I've been trying to rationalize buying an oscilloscope, but failing. There are too many other modules that are higher priority.

Grey


I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play.
Re: Moog Matriarch
GRollins #3026607 01/29/20 07:49 PM
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Thanks for the feedback. You reminded me and I added this note to the description:


Added Note: I attempted to minimize de-tuning of the 2 oscillators on both the Matriarch and the Mini. The Matriarch is much more "in tune" across the entire range compared to the Mini and may explain some of the differences you hear. Also I set the osc levels so as not to overload the mixer.


The single oscillator samples are probably a better reflection of the differences between the 2. However a single Mini oscillator often sounds like there are 2 oscillators on. Perhaps subtle phasing going on between the subharmonics and distortion artifacts? idk

Anyway imitating a Mini is not what the Matriarch is about although I suppose it provides a certain reference to show what it can sound like. To me it's more like putting a muzzle on a Rottweiler to see what it's bark sounds like.

Re: Moog Matriarch
GRollins #3026689 01/30/20 01:28 AM
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The Minimoog is, for better or worse (and you know which of those I'd choose), a touchstone. Even people who may not want to own a Mini will have some idea of what one sounds like. In a case like this it provides a corrective lens that cuts through recording gear, YouTube, etc. so that you can say, "Well, if a D sounds like that, then the Matriarch must sound like this..." It allows you to calibrate your ears.

Grey


I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play.
Re: Moog Matriarch
GRollins #3026738 01/30/20 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by GRollins
The Minimoog is, for better or worse (and you know which of those I'd choose), a touchstone. Even people who may not want to own a Mini will have some idea of what one sounds like. In a case like this it provides a corrective lens that cuts through recording gear, YouTube, etc. so that you can say, "Well, if a D sounds like that, then the Matriarch must sound like this..." It allows you to calibrate your ears.

Grey


Excellent summation, Grey. Couldn’t have said it better.


"I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.�
Robert Bosch, 1919
Re: Moog Matriarch
GRollins #3026756 01/30/20 03:56 PM
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Markyboard, thank-you very much for your great video. Given that I am not looking for a replacement to my ‘74 mini I did find the sound differences btn the 2 enlightening. It has a different character and features. Once I determine that the issues brought up on the various forums have been resolved I will add one as I can hear where it can enhance some of our soundtrack work. I’ll ask Brian Kehew his thoughts after he has had sometime with it which knowing BK he ultimately will.

Re: Moog Matriarch
Markyboard #3026760 01/30/20 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Markyboard
Anyway imitating a Mini is not what the Matriarch is about although I suppose it provides a certain reference to show what it can sound like. To me it's more like putting a muzzle on a Rottweiler to see what it's bark sounds like.



LOL. lolol

Brilliant video. More please. smile

Do you have any thoughts on differences and similarities in tonal changes as the pre-filter mixer is overloaded? (added sizzle versus added bass for example)

Re: Moog Matriarch
Tusker #3026843 01/30/20 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by gd1
Markyboard, thank-you very much for your great video. Given that I am not looking for a replacement to my ‘74 mini I did find the sound differences btn the 2 enlightening. It has a different character and features. Once I determine that the issues brought up on the various forums have been resolved I will add one as I can hear where it can enhance some of our soundtrack work. I’ll ask Brian Kehew his thoughts after he has had sometime with it which knowing BK he ultimately will.


Yeah it really is a different animal. I thought I bricked it today! When you turn local mode off and nothing is happening you’re kind of blind. There’s nothing to tell you what channel is set or any other internal settings.Price of having no display and having to use that keyboard entry approach to setting the global parameters. Turned out I entered the wrong super secret combination of keys and well...it took a while redwall. I do think once things are set up properly most people won’t need to change globals very often.

This thing wants to be patched. Even though you can set the Osc tuning ranges in global (how my troubles began today) it’s really much easier to do with CVs. Also like I mentioned in the video you have to patch for pulse width control. If you’re planning to use this like a mini and not into patching I think you will not be happy.

As to the posted issues so far my only disappointment is the velocity curve over midi (haven’t tried the cv yet). It’s way too sensitive and extremely difficult to play with low velocity values. I spent quite a bit of time tweaking a velocity compressor/expander plugin in Reaper, actually 2 instances set for different ranges. It’s better but still far from great. Everything else midi-wise seems good so far- no stuck notes and no issues routing through or playback with Reaper. However I have yet to attempt syncing anything to midi clock.


Originally Posted by Tusker


Do you have any thoughts on differences and similarities in tonal changes as the pre-filter mixer is overloaded? (added sizzle versus added bass for example)


Hey Jerry-

So far I think it’s rather broadband as I don’t discern a particular frequency associated with the overdrive. It is extremely smooth and works well over a good range of the LP filter. I’m just getting started so I’ll let you know more once I get more familiar with it. But I think of all the time I spend experimenting with my Empress multi-drive and the mini feedback trick on the Voyager. The Empress has bass, mid and treble controls to help dial in (actually more like tame) the right sound. The Matriarch overdrive requires no effort and sounds wonderful. And...no noise gate required!

Thanks for the responses guys.

Re: Moog Matriarch
GRollins #3026845 01/31/20 12:11 AM
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Cool vid, Mark! Maybe sometime I will treat myself to a Matriarch, as consolation for missing out on the KARP 2600 preorder. wink

Re: Moog Matriarch
Markyboard #3026872 01/31/20 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Markyboard
I thought I bricked it today! When [...] nothing is happening you’re kind of blind.


I know it's not always practical to have displays and such, but there comes a time when you really need some way to get at problems that are hidden in deep menus or arcane "tap-this-one-twice-and-that-one-once-then-flip-this-switch-three-times-within-five-seconds" sequences that only serve to prove that someone had a fight with his wife before coming to work the morning that part of the circuit was designed.

My Behringer Model Ds show one way to handle the matter decently. The original machines had the stupid, unpredictable (and to be honest, somewhat unreliable) weird sequences. Then, in a stroke of genius, they came out with SynthTool and all you have to do now is hook a computer to your D with a USB cable and the program allows you to set all those difficult things with a mouse on a clearly designed user interface. Much more intuitive and practical. Score one for Behringer.

If you can't bring yourself to provide a civilized user experience on the outside of your synth, at least give your customers a way to hook it to a computer to get into your product.

Grey


I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play.
Re: Moog Matriarch
GovernorSilver #3026881 01/31/20 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by GovernorSilver
Cool vid, Mark! Maybe sometime I will treat myself to a Matriarch, as consolation for missing out on the KARP 2600 preorder. wink


Maybe it's no coincidence that your initials are the same as a well known forum.
poke grin wave

Re: Moog Matriarch
GRollins #3026915 01/31/20 04:44 PM
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lolol


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
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