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Blindfold test of pianos


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Seriously. Every time I sit down to play a recent Casio AP, I come away impressed with how much quality they deliver at a price point.

 

Several of my younger friends have bought them for their kids to learn piano. When I visit, I sit down to play a bit, and end up respecting on how well they deliver on the mission for short money.

 

I wish they had been around back when I was scraping pennies together to buy a board. Progress, right?

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I wish they had been around back when I was scraping pennies together to buy a board. Progress, right?

True that.

 

Though admittedly if digital pianos were that good and that cheap back in the 90s, my parents might have gotten one and I might have an out of date digital piano sitting in my parent's attic instead of a nice upright acoustic piano in my house.

 

Though it would have certainly 18 year old me money and days not living off Ramen to try and save up for one.

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I watched it "blind" myself. My own reveal was pretty much in line with my expectations. I liked Nord best (even though the particular Nord sample they picked is not my favorite), Yamaha second. I liked the Roland more than I thought I would, but not enough to change its rankings relative to the other four. Kronos just doesn't work for me (though I'm curious as to which Kronos piano sample he was playing, as the only ones I've played myself are their original two). Casio is plunkiest, but the actual timbre was surprisingly nice considering it's the bottom of the line CDP-S100, which we're told has a lesser piano sound than the CDP-S350, which in turn is still a lesser piano sound than the PX-S1000/3000.

 

I think the biggest drawback of the comparison is that he generally played pretty evenly, so you couldn't get much of a sense of the dynamic response of the pianos, i.e.how the sound varied from pp to ff.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Andertons is my local music shop where I bought the Roland V- Grand - I wasnt blindfolded but I loved it!
Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
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Not surprised by the results of this...

There are other developers more focused on APs than Korg. Although the Kronos is about as great an AP effort as weve ever seen and it can be tweaked to taste. Korg doesnt have access to great actions for their line, and that is a shame. The Kronos 8 has an after touch strip under the RH3 - does this make it feel different from the SV-1?)

The Roland action on the RD-2000 does feel substantial and is perfect for chording and noodling. I found it sluggish for virtuosic play however. The stock piano model timbres sound pretty good, but are not the definitive end of the quest for piano realism.

The Montage pianos sound like Yamaha pianos - you either like that sound or dont. Generally sound great in band context. Yamaha chose to use the balanced hammer effect action with aftertouch for the Montage. Makes sense for a powerful synth like the Montage - they could have used the CP4s action or Avant Grande. :)

Many here already agree the Casio action is very playable and their ROM piano samples are short.

Nord has a great piano sample library you can load in large and smaller variants. The TP-40 is a nice compromise action. Too bad the Kawai MP7SE or ES8 is missing from this gathering.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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The Montage pianos sound like Yamaha pianos - you either like that sound or dont.

Where I tend to give the edge to Yamaha over many others isn't necessarily the "sound" (though I generally do like their sounds, which probably makes sense since my grand is a Yamaha), but in being among the least percussive... the fall-off from the initial attack doesn't seem exaggerated as so many do, and the subsequent decay isn't unnaturally quick, nor the level of the main body of its decay time disappointingly low. Obviously, this is where I see an edge over Casio, but also over Kronos.

 

From my experience with Roland (at least the SuperNaturals), my issue tends to be too much timbral variation from pp to ff, almost like you're playing samples from totally different pianos, which may make sense as I've read that Roland creates their own interpolation of what they feel a piano sound should be and it is not based on mimicking any single actual real-life piano (possibly even basing their tone generation on samples from different pianos). One thing I've wondered is whether, on their more advanced models, the end-user may be able to adjust this, whether by scaling back on the brightness of the high velocity hits, or increasing the brightness of low velocity ones, just to reduce the amount of timbral difference which feels unrealistic to me, even if some may find it pleasing.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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The Montage pianos sound like Yamaha pianos - you either like that sound or dont.

Where I tend to give the edge to Yamaha over many others isn't necessarily the "sound" (though I generally do like their sounds, which probably makes sense since my grand is a Yamaha), but in being among the least percussive... the fall-off from the initial attack doesn't seem exaggerated as so many do, and the subsequent decay isn't unnaturally quick, nor the level of the main body of its decay time disappointingly low. Obviously, this is where I see an edge over Casio, but also over Kronos.

 

From my experience with Roland (at least the SuperNaturals), my issue tends to be too much timbral variation from pp to ff, almost like you're playing samples from totally different pianos, which may make sense as I've read that Roland creates their own interpolation of what they feel a piano sound should be and it is not based on mimicking any single actual real-life piano (possibly even basing their tone generation on samples from different pianos). One thing I've wondered is whether, on their more advanced models, the end-user may be able to adjust this, whether by scaling back on the brightness of the high velocity hits, or increasing the brightness of low velocity ones, just to reduce the amount of timbral difference which feels unrealistic to me, even if some may find it pleasing.

 

Also missing the Forte and/or the SP6 here.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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Interesting video. Even though I love my Kronos 61, I would agree that the stock pianos aren't that dynamically responsive. FWIW, I have only one 88 key, a Privia PX-5S, which is the master controller for any piano noodling in the studio.

 

Here's how I rate my pianos best to worst on sound/response, best to worst:

 

Integra Full Grand

MODX CP88

Privia PX5S Grand

Kronos Japanese

Kronos German

 

I'd bet the Kronos Berlin or Italian would probably rate higher than the factory pianos.

 

I've got a Forte 7 coming in Tuesday, curious to see how that will rate. My Sweetwater rep has a Nord Stage, and he puts the Forte as a close second. We shall see...

 

 

 

 

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Well, if we're going to stack rank personal piano choices? Allow me to play ...

 

Ultimate AP grand experience: Bosie 200 sitting in my acoustically treated living room. Best decision ever. Other than marrying my wife, that is.

 

I want for nothing else, which is worth something, right? I play it an hour or so every day. More when I retire.

 

Next best AP/DP experience: Yamaha AvantGrand N3 sitting in a summer vacation house. Second best decision ever. It's great, and needs zero maintenance.

 

Best gigging AP slab experience for me? NP4 with XL samples played through RCF TT08-a or FA 12acs or Westone IEMs (depending on venue).

 

We live in amazing times.

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Was in the shop today.

No Casio PX-Sxxx to try yet. :(

And no Korg Grandstage or Kronos 8 - although I have played them before

No Kurzweil Forte or SP6

 

Roland FP-10/30 - shallow drop. But quick enough. Weighting is ok. These keyboards have a very small footprint. If slim is what you are looking for I would imagine these are just as tiny as the new Casio PX-Sxxxx.

 

Medelli SP4200 - The action feels cheap, a little noisy. Not way out from the other offerings in this price point, but not "better" for sure. Doesnt speak particularly well with the internal sounds which are meh. Is this the action in the Kurzweil SP6?

 

Kawai ES-110 - worth the extra $ for the action alone. Drop feels a bit deeper than the Roland FP-xx, its quick. ES-8 action is more substantial feeling, plays very well with internal sounds which are quite nice. Fuller sounding than the ES-110.

 

Casio PX-350M - drop depth is good, speed is excellent, some bounce/wobble/action noise - does S-xxxx address the wobble? Internal piano sounds are very good.

 

RD-2000 - lots of great bread and butter sounds, plenty of acoustic pianos to pick from (brighter, darker, thinner, thicker). Action is substantial feeling and very grand piano like. However, the return for re-strike is a little slow and on virtuosic stuff it makes me feel like I'm working too hard. I can see getting tired on this action on heavier gigs like Broadway, classical rep, smaller jazz combos where the piano needs to work.

 

MODX8 - this was the surprise highlight of the day. nice drop, nice weighting, and fast. Overall this board plays and sounds fantastic, especially for the price. I've played the Montage 8 (price is out of my league) - but it's been months. Is the DA as good on the MODX? I remember liking the Montage 8 action (I think it's balanced on the Montage, if the MODX is graded, it's not obvious). Specs say the MODX8 is the GHS, but why does it feel better than a P45's GHS? Are not all GHS's equal? Could it be the bigger case? (With all the MODX8 can do, you'd really have to play the CP88 to see how much better the NW-GH is and if the pianos are any stronger in the new CP). It's just over 30lbs which is great, I wish it wasn't so deep though.

 

Nord Stage 3 88k - pianos sound great, and actually most of the other tones too. Drop and speed of action is very good. Which one is this? TP-40 variant of some kind? I can see where you'd need to play the CP88 or MODX8 if piano is priority and you don't do a lot of organ just for the price.

 

* side note - the MODX6 action is NOT the Montage 6 action. Not even close.

 

YMMV

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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Nice to see the sub 1k Casio hold up pretty well with something that was, what, 2.5k new.....

Not totally fair, though... The Casio's best (and only) sample set, against the non-best (not largest size) version of one of numerous selectable Nord sample sets. (Though I still thought the Nord sounded better.)

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Nice to see the sub 1k Casio hold up pretty well with something that was, what, 2.5k new.....

Not totally fair, though... The Casio's best (and only) sample set, against the non-best (not largest size) version of one of numerous selectable Nord sample sets. (Though I still thought the Nord sounded better.)

think you missed my point.....there's just not that big a difference to justify a 1-1/2 times more outlay of cash. I'm only expressing my opinion here though.....

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think you missed my point.....there's just not that big a difference to justify a 1-1/2 times more outlay of cash. I'm only expressing my opinion here though.....

I understood... my point was that just because someone may think that particular Nord piano sound was not so much better as to be worth paying 150% more for, that doesn't mean that there may not have been some other Nord PIano sound that someone may find more tempting, whether the more completely sampled version of that Bosendorfer, or one of the others (Steinway, Yamaha, Kawai, etc.). But no doubt, Casio is always high value, and Nord is always premium priced.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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think you missed my point.....there's just not that big a difference to justify a 1-1/2 times more outlay of cash. I'm only expressing my opinion here though.....

 

That is a good point.

 

I forgot where I saw it, but someone was comparing a Yamaha CP88 to the Nord Stage 3. They remarked the Nord Stage was better, but that for the price of the Nord Stage you could get like the Yamaha CP88, Behringer DeepMind 6 or other inexpensive synth, and a Hammond Clonewheel type organ.

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It's interesting that Elmer Fudd is saying that the Roland FP 30 has a shallow drop.

 

I have one at home on demo. For the price point the FP 30 has the sound that I like the most among Casio / Yamaha / Roland in the lightweight approx. $ 600 dollar price point.

 

The action takes some getting used to though. For me the keybed " drop" as he describes it seems deep actually.

 

As I have said on the Casio thread, it is surprising how close ( soundwise)some of these portables are getting compared to their more expensive counterparts.

 

It's conceivable that some of these lighter boards could be used for gigs rather than taking out expensive gear that might get damaged from unforeseen factors.

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MODX8 ... I've played the Montage 8 (price is out of my league) - but it's been months. Is the DA as good on the MODX?

If you're asking what I think you're asking, I don't know the answer, but you might be interested in the discussion of PAC at http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-montage-quick-thoughts/ - something the Montage has and the MODX does not.

 

MODX8 Specs say the MODX8 is the GHS, but why does it feel better than a P45's GHS? Are not all GHS's equal?

Ah, the million dollar question! They do not all feel the same, but I have no idea why. The MODX8 in the store did not feel as good to me as the DGX660 nearby (which was the best feeling GHS I'd played). Was it a physically different action? Or did they have identical actions but felt different because of how the actions were mounted, or the characteristics of the particular chassis they were mounted in? Did they just feel different because one had been played a lot more than or the other? Or is there unit-to-unit variance, perhaps a result of sourcing components from different manufacturers? Who knows? There definitely have been some physical changes made over time... early GHS black keys were glossy while later ones were matte... but what if any other physical changes may have been made to the design over the years, I haven't a clue...

 

Nord Stage 3 88k - pianos sound great, and actually most of the other tones too. Drop and speed of action is very good. Which one is this? TP-40 variant of some kind?

Yes... I think the TP-40M. Heavier than the TP-40L that Kurz uses.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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It's interesting that Elmer Fudd is saying that the Roland FP 30 has a shallow drop.

 

I have one at home on demo. For the price point the FP 30 has the sound that I like the most among Casio / Yamaha / Roland in the lightweight approx. $ 600 dollar price point.

 

The action takes some getting used to though. For me the keybed " drop" as he describes it seems deep actually.

 

As I have said on the Casio thread, it is surprising how close ( soundwise)some of these portables are getting compared to their more expensive counterparts.

 

It's conceivable that some of these lighter boards could be used for gigs rather than taking out expensive gear that might get damaged from unforeseen factors.

 

I notice the short drop on the 88k DS Roland sells too. Id swear its actually a shorter drop than most other actions sold in length and not just feeling. Ill try and measure it in mm when I get a chance.

 

Yes, these cheaper models with USB midi are great for carry and also using with a laptop and MainStage or Cantabile if you can get on with the action for the type of playing you do on a typical gig.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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I call that noodling testing, easy slow ballad playing. He never tests the action with the ease of technical playing. He never plays fast runs, or a Chopin Etude, or solo on Giant Steps or fast stride. The new Casio S1000 and S3000 series sounds sooo much better than that Casio PX-350. I had to turn these clowns off after half way.

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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