Kurzweil PC4

[analogholic]

Other than the 2 gig of user memory and 256 vs. 128 voices, what is significantly different about this keyboard than a PC3A8?

 

The 2GB ROM in the PC4. vs 64MB base ROM, 64MB KORE 64 and 128MB for the Piano Exp in the PC3A8, total of 256 MB ROM

[analogholic]

Hmmm...yes...I know they are used there....but are these unseen Kurzweils going to help Kurzweil to sell a lot of units?

 

Or would it be better to pack it with sounds that cover a lot of ranges appealing to R&B, pop and whatnot players right out of the box?

 

I was quite underwhelmed when I heard the PC3 for the first time....

Strings were very good, but that was it...

OK, it was their first serious attempt at a new instrument with limited resources...but still...

 

I constantly see all kinds of versions of the basically same synth....

 

Wouldn't´t it better to do something new? Something innovative?

 

 

 

 

[TechEverlasting]

 

Because that now ancient ROM was cutting edge at the time.... 20 years ago...

 

 

 

Honestly the waveforms in the K2 ROM were not "cutting edge" even 20 years ago. That has never been the point. Is a Sawtooth wave cutting edge? Running large detailed factory ROM sampled instruments through crap sounding filters with no programming flexibility is not Kurzweil's specialty. There are plenty of Romplers from other companies out there if that's what you're interested in.

 

V.A.S.T. makes it possible for those who are interested to do amazing expressive things with those ROM waveforms. I still haven't exhausted the possibilities of running 128 MB of my own samples through the PC3K8's engine and can't wait to play with 2 GB in the PC4.

[KorgyPorky]

Hmmm...yes...I know they are used there....but are these unseen Kurzweils going to help Kurzweil to sell a lot of units?

 

I constantly see all kinds of versions of the basically same synth....

Wouldn't´t it better to do something new? Something innovative?

 

If Kurzweil wants to sell more, the answer is Yamaha..

If they figure why Yamaha products of equall quallity sell so much better

Then they might have an answer

 

Sadly sales figures are not a direct reflection of a products quallity

 

 

Innovation is one thing..

But since most people prefer to buy what they allready know..

I fully innovative new product might chase away most of the customers..

 

If you want to innovate smart, build a new instrument based on what people know

And add innovation on top of that..

 

 

For example integrating software and hardware?

If kurzweil created a VST host like Akais VIP

With full controll from the Forte2 which also would function as an audio interface..

Now that would give people everything they love from 2 worlds..

[Dave Weiser]

Whew it's like the wild west here!!

 

I no longer work for Kurz, and don't speak for them. But I think I can help sort out some of the questions and confusion.

 

Back in the day, the PC series (with PC88 and PC2) covered the mid-range keyboards while K series was the flagship. With the PC4 they're returning to this structure. Forte is the flagship, PC4 is the middle, SP6 is the low cost stage piano. Forte and SP6 have been home runs and I suspect the PC4 will be as well.

 

I hope/expect to see some of the clutter in their product lines start to go away shortly. (Artis, PC3LE, etc) That stuff takes time. And it's much better to have overlap than gaps.

 

The action is the same as SP6. For "low cost/low weight" the Fatar TP100 was an abject failure. Doesn't cut enough cost, doesn't cut enough weight, feels like poop and it makes a ton of mechanical noise. (Both the Artis and Forte SE suffered as a result.) The Medeli action does what a low-cost/low-weight action should do, and it feels amazing considering the weight and cost. I actually picked it out back when I worked for Kurz - we just didn't have a kick-ass instrument in which to use it. I've auditioned a sh*t-ton of actions and nothing in this price/weight range touches it in my opinion.

 

There has been an overwhelming demand across the industry from players and dealers for lighter weight instruments. Nord has been all over it. But so have Casio with boards like the PX-5S (20 something lbs) and Korg with their Krome (32 lbs I believe). Lightweight action, plastic enclosure and external power supply are the things that get you light weight.

 

I visited R&D the other day to check this thing out. It's very lightweight - felt similar to SP6, which is 27lbs.

 

This was the first I'd heard their FM synthesis engine, which will also be coming in Forte OS 4.0. The DX7 import stuff was spot on, but the new FM material was what grabbed me - very interesting and cool!! I can't confirm 100% but it sure sounded like they found a way to include super-fast envelopes in the FM engine. Not sure exactly what that means, but it's very exciting as their slow envelopes have been a source of much teeth-gnashing from synth-heads (including myself). Also it looks like there are some pretty amazing possibilities for integrating the FM engine with the rest of VAST. I hope to get some more info (and audio examples) of this stuff sometime soon.

 

As far as I know (and as far as the engineer I asked knows) both the 1/4" and 1/8" inputs go to the FX.

 

As for "not seeing Kurz on stage as much anymore"... it's partially true. The advent of computer based rigs was tough on everyone in the industry, doubly so on Kurz as they were going through a horrible bankruptcy at the height of the transition, from 2003-2006 and then were running on fumes for two more years after that. They're a tiny company with no marketing budget.

 

Having said that you can still see Kurz boards on stage with acts like The Who, Elton John, Roger Waters, Springsteen, Heart, proggers like Jon Anderson, and classic funk/soul acts like Earth Wind and Fire. Plus all of the theater shows I work on around the world like Les Mis, Phantom, Jesus Christ Superstar, etc, hundreds of big productions. Of course the goal is to get Kurz boards into the hands of some more current/younger artists. But it's a long game. They're up against competitors with huge marketing budgets. Nord is also a small company, but they're a unique case where the marketing and branding are built into the actual products, Hell the branding is a pretty much a feature (and a huge success in my opinion).

 

Still the demand for Kurz has been increasing, the sales numbers have been going up, and the number of working pros using Kurz is healthy and growing. (Otherwise my UK partner and I would have moved to another brand for our theater shows.) Players in GB, cover and tribute bands make up a big chunk of Kurzweil's customer base due to the flexibility of setups/multis and the fact that the Kurz boards can very often allow you (or programmers like me) to dial in the exact sounds from specific songs.

 

Back to PC4....

 

I have no idea what the price is going to be. I would LOVE to see it around the $2-2.5K range. If they can nail that down, they'll have a winner in the middle to complement the successes they've had with the Forte at the top and SP6 at the entry level.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Legatoboy]

[AnotherScott]

Medeli made Kurzweil sp4-7 keybed.

 

No. Same action as SP6. (SP4-7 was semi-weighted.)

But Medeli made both actions, didn't they?

 

Other than the 2 gig of user memory and 256 vs. 128 voices, what is significantly different about this keyboard than a PC3A8?

 

The 2GB ROM in the PC4. vs 64MB base ROM, 64MB KORE 64 and 128MB for the Piano Exp in the PC3A8, total of 256 MB ROM

 

+ 9 knobs

+ FM synth

+ larger, color screen

+ probably 32 fx units instead of 16

+ lower weight

 

For "low cost/low weight" the Fatar TP100 was an abject failure. Doesn't cut enough cost, doesn't cut enough weight, feels like poop and it makes a ton of mechanical noise. (Both the Artis and Forte SE suffered as a result.)

When I ordered my Artis 7, they accidentally sent me the Artis 8. They said I could keep it despite the price difference. The travel weight made it impractical for me, but I still had to try it... hated it. While I've never played a *great* TP100, I don't know why, this seemed worse than some others (Dexibell, Numa Stage). I'm glad they've moved to something better!

 

As long as it's under 30 lbs, I'm quite sure I'll get one of these... the question will be whether to get the initial 88 or the subsequent semi-weighted 76. I'm also curious to see what its patch selection mechanism is like, including the ease of calling up and controlling sounds on either side of a split. Artis 7 is pretty good at that, once you figure it out, and it even has an internal power supply! ;-) But the updated sound set, additional knobs, additional assignable outputs (yay!), updated display/interface, FM synth, aftertouch, and support for user samples will make this too tempting. I also won't miss the thin black buttons with no space between them.

 

If the weight of the 76 is low enough, it could replace my MODX7 as my #1 gigging board (i.e. the one I always take, regardless of what else I'm bringing), though that weight target might be overly optimistic...

 

[AnotherScott]

Older Kurzweils had a QA (Quick Access) mode, which repurposed the number pad for patches whose names were displayed on the screen. Does the Forte has something similar? (I'm assuming that if the Forte has this, the PC4 is likely to have it as well.)

 

Something else I'm curious to know about... the Forte and PC3 series support 16 zones (for any combination of internal/external use), I wonder if the PC4 will as well? (Forte SE was 8, other Kurz models are 4...)

[ChrisDespo]

AnotherScott - yeah the Forte uses what they now call Favorites which allow single button access to any 10 multi or programs, similar to QA mode on my PC361. There are I think at least 16 banks of these that you can create. Very convenient and easy to setup and use live.

[AnotherScott]

AnotherScott - yeah the Forte uses what they now call Favorites which allow single button access to any 10 multi or programs, similar to QA mode on my PC361. There are I think at least 16 banks of these that you can create. Very convenient and easy to setup and use live.

Very good... and when the buttons are used this way, does the screen tell you which sound is currently assigned to each of the buttons?

[ChrisDespo]

Yup there are dedicated buttons below screen and you can have the favorite names displayed as one of the default screen layouts .... works really well from my own experience, as well as my pc361 but doesnt make you switch into QA mode - the favorites are always there ready to be pressed and used in any mode ... (my apologies-

I dont mean to hijack this thread - we should start new one)

[Sundown]

Somebody posted images from the Musikmesse on Facebook, and while I was quick to criticize the instrument's "plasticky" appearance from the official Kurz site, it looked much better in the Facebook photos. For lack of a better word, it looked much more solid.

 

I can't 100% tell if the control knobs have LED crowns, but my gut says no... That's a bit of a disappointment. I really like continuous encoders that show their present status with a crown (e.g. Montage, Nord, etc).

 

I think it will be an interesting product lineup to watch, and I hope Kurzweil does really well. They make some of the very best instruments on the planet.

[Sundown]

And why is that?

Because that now ancient ROM was cutting edge at the time.... 20 years ago...

 

I might agree with you if I didn't own a Kurzweil, but I do. If I put my older PC361 alongside a modern Yamaha, the Yamaha will no doubt have more sheen, more edge, and more flashy sounds. But when I'm writing/recording an actual song, the Kurz will often fit in the mix better. Those flashy, in-your-face sounds are useless in even a modestly dense composition. If I measure a synth's value in terms of helping me get stuff done, Kurzweil scores very, very well.

 

I disagree that you don't see them onstage... I see my fair share. Jordan Rudess, David Rosenthal, etc. They still have a following with pros.

 

Last but not least, Kurzweil is hardly the only manufacturer stretching the life of their ROM. Roland is still selling instruments with the JV/XP ROM (e.g. Integra, FA-06, etc). I'm less sure about Yamaha and Korg, Nord, etc.

[Al Coda]

...but are these unseen Kurzweils going to help Kurzweil to sell a lot of units?

 

Or would it be better to pack it with sounds that cover a lot of ranges appealing to R&B, pop and whatnot players right out of the box?

 

I was quite underwhelmed when I heard the PC3 for the first time....

Strings were very good, but that was it...

Wouldn't´t it better to do something new? Something innovative?

 

Yeah, yeah ... we need more and much bigger samples, more resolution, more and better physical modelling, incredible organ engines and mind-boggling vintage synth emulations,- more, more, more,- and all in a extremely lightweight and portable package,- something "green" not consumating too much power, better runs on battery too, w/ build-in speakers, back-pack ready,-

 

... for all the shitty gigs where keyboardplayers are almost inaudible and for all the "important" projects, we get only cents for when (hopefully) released as download-sales today.

 

A.C.

[Al Coda]

Kurzweil is hardly the only manufacturer stretching the life of their ROM. Roland is still selling instruments with the JV/XP ROM (e.g. Integra, FA-06, etc). I'm less sure about Yamaha and Korg, Nord, etc.

 

True !

According to Yamaha,- you still find old AWM samples inside.

Why not ?

They are all using their library and sound designers make new patches.

Only the philosophy about what to do is different.

I myself, I hate all the arpeggiated techno like and eurodance patches as also I rarely need "envolving" pads ro tons of (electronic) drumkits.

Others like.

 

That´s life.

 

A.C.

[gg22]

I think it's a direct competitor to the Yamaha MODX8 - FM engine, similar weight and action. And likely better organ and EP's. Actually looks interesting if they can keep the price below or at the MODX8 level.

[analogholic]

...

Why do you almost never see Kurzweils live?

Why do you almost always see Motifs, Kronos live (apart from the NORD users)

 

Take a guess

 

When will Kurzweil wake up???

 

Because almost no one sells them. I'd probably have one instead of my Motif had a single store in Minnesota had them.

 

So why does nobody sell them?

Probably because people didn´t buy them (while they were still selling them)...They go in the store, try the Kurz (while there were any) and the Korg, Roland and Yamaha, feeling more impressed with the latter 3....

 

Kurzweil has always been this "special tool"...where I could do stuff the others couldn't´t...

But as my main instrument...no...

 

Forte would definitely be there with an updated base rom and updated LFO´s, envelopes, less aliasing

 

Sigh...maybe the "next" flagship"...

 

Btw, in Sweden there was no problem buying Kurzweils for a long time....

NEVER saw them in a live rig during 20 years...

 

[analogholic]

And why is that?

Because that now ancient ROM was cutting edge at the time.... 20 years ago...

 

I might agree with you if I didn't own a Kurzweil, but I do. If I put my older PC361 alongside a modern Yamaha, the Yamaha will no doubt have more sheen, more edge, and more flashy sounds. But when I'm writing/recording an actual song, the Kurz will often fit in the mix better. Those flashy, in-your-face sounds are useless in even a modestly dense composition. If I measure a synth's value in terms of helping me get stuff done, Kurzweil scores very, very well.

 

I disagree that you don't see them onstage... I see my fair share. Jordan Rudess, David Rosenthal, etc. They still have a following with pros.

 

Last but not least, Kurzweil is hardly the only manufacturer stretching the life of their ROM. Roland is still selling instruments with the JV/XP ROM (e.g. Integra, FA-06, etc). I'm less sure about Yamaha and Korg, Nord, etc.

 

I´m not talking about fitting in the mix for recording...I´m talking why you don´t see them live. Rudess haven´t used a Kurz in 15 years, he switched to Korg, Oasys then Kronos...

 

Yes you are right, all the manufacturers have traces of old ROM....but they already back then had a more complete ROM that has expanded greatly over time.

A K2000 was amazing for having only 8 MB of ROM and how you could use those very few multisamples. A Trinity had 24 MB.

VAST is WAY more flexible the Trinity engine...but as we all know, not everyone is a programmer (especially regarding VAST), many players need great sounds and a great variety of sounds right of the box...there is only so much you can do with 8 MB....

The few pros who chose Kurzweil knew its potential that with work you can do really cool stuff.

For me it never became more than "potential greatness" for a long time...looking at my friends cheap Korg X5d wondering why the Kurz didn´t have sounds like that...

 

[psionic11]

With "2GB of factory sample content + 2GB of user-loadable space" it seems to me the PC4 will be solid in the multisample space.

 

I wonder how a Kurzweil board handles keymaps. Do you need to create your own multisample keymaps externally first, or can you do everything onboard?

[Bill W]

When I had a PC3K7, I did all the multisample keymaps onboard. The manual was pretty clear on how to do it.

[Theo Verelst]

It's hard to discuss sound nowadays, even though, in a sense optimistically perhaps, the Kurzweil site has for a long time boasted "it's the sound". Maybe it was/is still, but somehow the subject seems to have colluded somewhat around the idea of taste (hard to discuss), measurability (only objective for some) and monitoring/amplification.

 

I think the real reason for the various sounds in various keyboard offerings also is hardly clear to anybody even though the opinions at times strife for mastery around the good old givens from the 80s. That is mainly because the content of the signal processing blocks, and the mapping of instrument behavior to such are almost completely obfuscated at the level of quality sound.

 

T.

[Sundown]

So why does nobody sell them?

Probably because people didn´t buy them (while they were still selling them)...They go in the store, try the Kurz (while there were any) and the Korg, Roland and Yamaha, feeling more impressed with the latter 3....

 

Well, let's look at that for a moment...

 

I live in a well-known U.S. metropolitan area about 15-20 miles from a major city. Excluding Guitar Center, professional keyboard shops are gone... There are 3 to 5 Guitar Centers in a 50 mile radius, but that's it. Guitar Center still sells Kurz's online, but I don't recall seeing many on the sales floor. But for me, "nobody selling them" is really just saying that Guitar Center isn't carrying a lot of stock. Maybe your area is different, but GC is it for us in terms of walk-in stores. The online retailers all carry Kurzweil (Sweetwater, Kraft, Sam Ash, our friend Dave Weiser, etc).

 

There can also be a lot of reasons why a store drops a brand independent of sales figures. It could be inventory and dealer terms, profit margins, etc. If I look at one of my other big hobbies (live fire outdoor cooking), one of the biggest/best retailers in the area stopped carrying Big Green Egg. You can argue whether or not BGE makes the best ceramic grill, but they are the "Kleenex" of ceramic kamado grills. They didn't drop them because of sales figures for sure. Other brands gave them better margins or terms.

 

I can't speak for everyone's needs for sure, I can only speak to mine. When I turn 50 in a few years, I'll treat myself to either a top flight analog, a badass clone wheel, or a new Kurzweil to replace my PC361.

[felis]

Anyone know the approximate time span here until we get solid info like pricing, specs, and manuals, and until there are units in stores to try out?

 

Are we looking at days, weeks, months, years, or what?

[b3plyr]

Anyone know the approximate time span here until we get solid info like pricing, specs, and manuals, and until there are units in stores to try out?

 

Are we looking at days, weeks, months, years, or what?

 

Too soon to know. OS 4.0 for the Forte still isn't even out yet. We won't know the details on the PC4 you want until Kurzweil formally makes the information available. Speculation doesn't mean a lot.

[AnotherScott]

Kurzweil is hardly the only manufacturer stretching the life of their ROM. Roland is still selling instruments with the JV/XP ROM (e.g. Integra, FA-06, etc). I'm less sure about Yamaha and Korg, Nord, etc.

 

True !

According to Yamaha,- you still find old AWM samples inside.

Why not ?

Exactly. To me, this is a positive. New samples should be added to the older library, not used as replacement. It's great that the Montage/MODX still has your favorite MotifXF/MOXF and MotifXS/MOX voices. I only wish it were even more complete, as they used to drop old samples, when sample memory was a more significant expense (so these models are all missing some desirable original Motif and Motif ES era voices), and also they have altered the supported sample formats such that the optional (non factory-shipped) waves that were available for older models (whether from Yamaha or third parties) don't necessarily work on the Montage/MODX. Some do, some don't.

 

But likewise, Kurzweil should be applauded for maintaining the entire original 64 mb PC3 ROM inside their now massively larger 2 GB wave set. So all our old PC3 Programs are still available to us.

 

Nord is not good about maintaining program compatibility per se between generations, but at least all the underlying waves are still available. Unlike the other companies' rompler-focussed approach, the synth architecture of the Stage series really changed from one generation to the next, so the lack of program compatibility is somewhat understandable. (And the Electro/Piano models that use the same samples don't let you alter them a whole lot anyway.)

 

Korg is not good at this at all, whether within a generation or between generations. If you want to move up from a Kross to a Krome or from a Krome to a Kronos, you can't count on having any way to play your old favorite programs. Similarly between generations, if you moved from a TR to its replacement M50, or from the M50 to its replacement Krome, you would no longer have your old sounds available.

 

Roland has a very confusing mix. From what I can tell, Integra and FA incorporate the old XV-5080 wave set, and I think the original Fantom included the XV-5080 set as well. The 2nd gen Fantom S did not include the complete original Fantom or XV-5080 sets; but the 3rd gen Fantom X DID include the Fantom-S set, then the 4th gen Fantom-G did NOT include the complete Fantom S or X sets; the Sound Canvas included a subset of the Fantom-G; the Juno-DI included a different subset of the Fantom G plus some sounds the G didn't have; Juno DS includes the entire Juno DI set plus a bunch of other stuff. (Also, although the Fantom S, Fantom X, and Juno DS do not include the entire XV-5080 wave set, Roland made downloads of all the XV-5080 patches available for them, remapping old waves to similar new waves where necessary.) Other Rolands similarly seem to be an odd and unpredictable mix and match of model-specific sounds and sounds drawn from earlier sources, with basically no documentation of what came from where. The only platforms with what I think is full patch compatibility when moving from one to another were Fantom-S to Fantom-X, Juno-DI to Juno-DS, and the various incarnations of the XV-5080 set. But it's so confusing and undocumented that I wouldn't swear to all of this, either.

 

Anyway, the point is, I think Kurz handles this best. ;-)

[AnotherScott]

I think it's a direct competitor to the Yamaha MODX8 - FM engine, similar weight and action. And likely better organ and EP's. Actually looks interesting if they can keep the price below or at the MODX8 level.

Even if it's higher priced, I'd prefer this, at least for the 88 (we'll have to see what the weight comes down to on the subsequent 76). Advantages over MODX include:

 

* 4 engines: sample-based, FM, virtual analog, clonewheel organ (MODX has the first two)

* assignable additional outputs

* aftertouch

* better implementation of seamless switching

* more flexible MIDI implementation

* double the User sample memory (which also means you can use the more extensively sampled version of Busch's Vintage Keyboard Collection, cool)

* ? maybe more zone/part support than Yamaha's 8?

* full sequencer (though not something I care about)

* more polyphony (also not really a concern for me)

* more controller support (ribbon, 4 foot switches, and the same 2 foot pedals... though no superknob... and I'll be pleasantly surprised if the PC4 knobs are endless encoders like Yamaha's)

 

As I alluded to earlier, I will also be curious to see how flexible/quick/easy patch recall is, compared to Yamaha's touchscreen Live Set for example.

 

Soundwise, I like both Kurz and Yamaha, but probably prefer Kurz sounds more often, for the sounds I use.

[Mighty Motif Max]

...

Why do you almost never see Kurzweils live?

Why do you almost always see Motifs, Kronos live (apart from the NORD users)

 

Take a guess

 

When will Kurzweil wake up???

 

Because almost no one sells them. I'd probably have one instead of my Motif had a single store in Minnesota had them.

 

So why does nobody sell them?

Probably because people didn´t buy them (while they were still selling them)...They go in the store, try the Kurz (while there were any) and the Korg, Roland and Yamaha, feeling more impressed with the latter 3....

 

Kurzweil has always been this "special tool"...where I could do stuff the others couldn't´t...

But as my main instrument...no...

 

Forte would definitely be there with an updated base rom and updated LFO´s, envelopes, less aliasing

 

Sigh...maybe the "next" flagship"...

 

Btw, in Sweden there was no problem buying Kurzweils for a long time....

NEVER saw them in a live rig during 20 years...

 

I remember hearing that many places dropped them when Kurzweil had financial issues some years back. I'm sure that was at least part of it.

 

 

 

The GC's here, when fully stocked, still have never had a Kurzweil that I've ever seen. The only place I know of that is listed as a dealer is Carlson's Piano World in Plymouth.

[Tom Williams]

Could someone who knows both VAST and MODX explain to me what Superknob does? On any of my Kurzweils I can have a single controller modify 8-10 parameters per layer, including oscillator DSP (though not the base waveform), pitches, filters, LFOs, envelopes, FUNs, and most effects parameters. So what am I missing by not having a superknob?

 

The above is not a criticism of Yamaha -- it's just an expression of my personal ignorance.

[gg22]

* double the User sample memory (which also means you can use the more extensively sampled version of Busch's Vintage Keyboard Collection, cool)

 

Will this collection be available for the PC4? I guess it's the same version that was made for the Forte?

[wd8dky]

Could someone who knows both VAST and MODX explain to me what Superknob does? On any of my Kurzweils I can have a single controller modify 8-10 parameters...

 

I've been wondering the same thing. My guess is that since none (that I am aware of) of the Kurz factory presets have a single controller set up to behave like a Superknob, perhaps a lot of folks don't realize that they can be?