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But for real sounding electric bass, iFretless Bass is my primary tool. With already having an iPad, these apps are really low priced compared to PC or Mac apps. Fully charged, I can do 3 hours and still have about 60% battery left, or I can use the current Apple Camera Connector to also be able to charge the iPad, or Korg PlugKey for charging and 5-pin MIDI connection.

 

It can be done, with good results.

Thanks for this. I have been pondering getting iFretless. I have an iPad Air and have been looking for a useful set of bass samples as an alternative to the rompler I have been using for live gigs.
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For real sounding bass I made an analog patch that is a saw wave that has no resonance and a low envelope amount on the filter. I used a short decay, no attack, mid sustain, and a bit of release depending on the song on Synth1. I dont play bass though.

For the most realistic bass, I wouldnt mind recommending tweaking patches in the Kronos. Id also use your Minitaur for the analog style ones. Ive heard sync can make a nice slap bass sound, FM is good for bass too.

Yamaha MX49, Casio SK1/WK-7600, Korg Minilogue, Alesis SR-16, Casio CT-X3000, FL Studio, many VSTs, percussion, woodwinds, strings, and sound effects.
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I patched my Key Largo FX send into my MultiAmp bass head's FX Return, and revisited balancing keyboard bass with my bass guitar, which was plugged into the normal IN of the MultiAmp.

 

Turns out the weak key bass sounds from before were due in large part to not enough volume. After really cranking the sounds both at the Key Largo FX send and the Multiamp's Return block gain, I got some decent left hand bass going. With beef and character. The Integra and the Minitaur are doing most of the heavy lifting.

 

It's a start, but it's not quite there yet.

 

Bass guitar is such a dynamic instrument. You can go from light percussive ghost notes all the way to wall-shaking boom, from one moment to the next, but still stay within context. The way any given bass player articulates, and the way the sound is processed thru an amp head and/or cabinet of your choice, and even the how loud the subs are cranked (by others) in a PA, all define the bassist's delivery and therefore a large part of his style. Dynamics and accents are half the battle in delivering good grooves.

 

Which is more difficult with keyboard bass -- it's like the sounds are permanently compressed. Sure, if you're playing with just a booming super compressed bass line that is relatively simple and consistent and just outlines the chords, then keyboard bass can be pretty convincing. But for a more wild rock or metal or funk approach with scale and rhythmic fills everywhere, you need that dynamic headroom to speak the language.

 

So I'm trying to work around that compressed sound by adding more velocity to amp/filter response to the bass sounds. But then things get a bit out of control, and the left hand bass is unflatteringly all over the map dynamics wise... ruining the groove.

 

Maybe I'm just over thinking things. Or need to reign in my playing. It's all a work in progress...

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This is a very interesting discussion of bass playing. I fear most keyboard bass is targeted at reproduction of pop studio bass lines. Heavy compression. Little dynamics. Thus the reliance on Hammond organ bass or synths with little or no velocity response. The bass line as a constant ostinato to propel the groove. This is an artistic choice that I find is not for me. But many if not most bass synth patches have it baked in.

 

Im sure I just lit a few fires. Im open to being schooled.

 

Back to your issue. Please dont give up on keyboard bass lines. The trick is how much amplitude and filter response is programmed to respond to velocity. This is the first modification I do when trying out a new patch. Turn off any compression and set the dynamic range: what is the softest and what is the loudest I want my bass line to get, based on how hard Im leaning into the keys. After that I can adjust the tone.

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During LA Woman a band leader noticed my left hand bass notes were cutting off too early, and I went and listened to it. It's literally like a millisecond or so of difference but I heard what he was talking about on the record. So I am going to either setup some kind of layer bass sound w more reverb or open up the sustain a tiny bit on that voice in the internal menu to fix it. I use the Motif Rack XS for l h bass. It's not what I'm playing or needing to go re learn the song. This song is 171 BPM so it's tough to get it exact when playing that bass line on a sample. No other Doors songs are anywhere near that tempo or have that kind of attack on the bass.
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If I really wanted absolute best bass sound today, I would buy one of the Trace Elliot Transit B pedals. That pedal puts all of the creamy rich bass goodness into a small pedal that is easy to carry and can feed the typical powered PA cabinet or FOH.

 

 

 

 

I found this of interest, and have been checking this pedal out. Unfortunately, while there is loads online about using it with bass guitars (duh!), I cant find anything about using it with a keyboard.

 

Is it a realistic proposition to use it with a keyboard playing left hand bass, or is it strictly a bass guitar kind of thing?

 

 

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The older Trace preamps generally had two inputs - one for standard bass, the other with lower gain for bass with internal preamp (like the Gibson RD Artist).

The Transit preamp has a single input, but has an Input Gain knob with a backlit LED that indicates input clipping. Ideally, the gain should be set just below the point of clipping. Since most keyboards have a higher output level than most basses, might also be necessary to lower the keyboard's volume setting (or put a pad in between to attenuate the signal).

 

What is looked for is the famous Trace-Elliot sound, which is accomplished by a mixture of adjustable compression, equalization, pre-shaping (their own "British sound" equalization setting, Drive control, and adjustable output. The preamp also provides a mute and tune function (built in), and not only standard line level 1/4" output, but also a built-in DI function, either pre or post eq, with balanced XLR output and a ground lift switch.

It's a pricy pedal, but I still want one. Now that I'm getting to where I can see better (post-operation), I might just wind up indulging that want.

 

From what I see (and I've serviced electronic equipment, including musical equipment, for over 50 years) - it should be usable with both.

 

I do know that when I first started keyboard bass with the K2000 Kurzweil, I was using a Trace-Elliot bass amp and cabinet; and I had enough adjustment to get most any type of sound I wanted. It was the same amp I had been using with the bass guitar. I still have one of the two, though heavy enough I don't move it around now (plus my vehicle now is too small for it).

 

You can download a PDF file with information on the preamp, that describes all of the controls and what they do.

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

Having stumbled upon this thread, thought I would share some thoughts:

 

A great source of tips on playing left hand keyboard is From Tony Monaco's instructional files and DVDs he was 'instrumental' in my becoming proficient on left hand bass..

 

Here he is in a master class..this time on a Hammond

 

Here is a lengthy introductory clip to his tutorials

 

His Tutorials they are well done, and GOOD!

https://b3monaco.com/education.html

 

If you happen to use a CASIO Privia PX-5s, you can buy for a reasonable price and load up these exceptional Bass sounds created by Dave Weiser click on the guitar...give a listen to the 'patches'. (he's provided sound design for Casio and Kurzweil among others) definitely worth every penny...

 

https://www.weisersound.com/casio-pro-bass-pack

 

Also, if you are looking for a keyboard amp that can kick some deep bass: Behringer Ultratone KXD12 - 600W 12" Keyboard Amp

...I know.....don't snub it....you need to try one.

...Prior to stumbling on this I was dragging two amps (one being an Ibanez 300w Bass)

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Appreciate the advice. I've seen a couple videos of Tony Monaco, and he's obviously got chops as well as personality.

 

I'm more of a Gen X bassist (80s 90s 00s) picking up keys as a dual class thing (tho we do do a few 60s 70s standouts for our biker crowd). The heaviest organ song we're doing is Fly Like an Eagle, and one day I will master both the organs and the synth parts along with bass duties.

 

Since this thread started, I've resorted to balancing everything without using my bass head. I've gotten an ART TPS II to run my Key Largo thru, and found that tweaking combis at high volume is a different experience than at lower volumes.

 

Bass sound is improving.

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The older Trace preamps generally had two inputs - one for standard bass, the other with lower gain for bass with internal preamp (like the Gibson RD Artist).

The Transit preamp has a single input, but has an Input Gain knob with a backlit LED that indicates input clipping. Ideally, the gain should be set just below the point of clipping. Since most keyboards have a higher output level than most basses, might also be necessary to lower the keyboard's volume setting (or put a pad in between to attenuate the signal).

 

What is looked for is the famous Trace-Elliot sound, which is accomplished by a mixture of adjustable compression, equalization, pre-shaping (their own "British sound" equalization setting, Drive control, and adjustable output. The preamp also provides a mute and tune function (built in), and not only standard line level 1/4" output, but also a built-in DI function, either pre or post eq, with balanced XLR output and a ground lift switch.

It's a pricy pedal, but I still want one. Now that I'm getting to where I can see better (post-operation), I might just wind up indulging that want.

 

From what I see (and I've serviced electronic equipment, including musical equipment, for over 50 years) - it should be usable with both.

 

I do know that when I first started keyboard bass with the K2000 Kurzweil, I was using a Trace-Elliot bass amp and cabinet; and I had enough adjustment to get most any type of sound I wanted. It was the same amp I had been using with the bass guitar. I still have one of the two, though heavy enough I don't move it around now (plus my vehicle now is too small for it).

 

You can download a PDF file with information on the preamp, that describes all of the controls and what they do.

 

 

Not sure which preamp you're referring to. Looked at Sweetwater, they have a Transit A preamp for $299.

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Ive played LH Keyboard bass since the 70s starting with a FenderRhodes pianobass, and then, as now, playing LH bass 80+ gigs/year, I think the primary key to making it work convincingly as an upright or bass guitar equivalent is to use a dedicated bass signal and sound chain, just as a bass guitar would have. A bass DI with some sound shaping tools like the Tech 21 SansAmp Bass VT DI lets you shape and adjust to any FOH system, and that DI in conjunction with various GK bass amp setups (depending upon the venue size and volume needs) has worked well for me, whether using an MX49 for bass in a 2 or 3 keyboard setup or using an aux-out for bass and splitting a Stage3 88 or S90 ES in a single keyboard setup. As others have mentioned above, if youve tweaked a few good patches and play them through a good bass sound chain, people will often comment that it sounded like a bass guitar or doghouse was playing.

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Ive played LH Keyboard bass since the 70s starting with a FenderRhodes pianobass, and then, as now, playing LH bass 80+ gigs/year, I think the primary key to making it work convincingly as an upright or bass guitar equivalent is to use a dedicated bass signal and sound chain, just as a bass guitar would have.

 

This is a common theme, and I have experimented with running my key bass sounds in my combis separately thru my bass head. I've been going through the AUX return, which then gets fed into the cabs same as my bass guitar. But the levels are unpredictable on stage, even though I spend a good deal of time pre-mixing at home. I've gone back to putting key bass back into the main keyboard mix lately.

 

I think I might need somehow to run a separate feed to FOH for key bass, just like I do with bass guitar and stereo keys.

 

A bass DI with some sound shaping tools like the Tech 21 SansAmp Bass VT DI lets you shape and adjust to any FOH system, and that DI in conjunction with various GK bass amp setups (depending upon the venue size and volume needs) has worked well for me, whether using an MX49 for bass in a 2 or 3 keyboard setup or using an aux-out for bass and splitting a Stage3 88 or S90 ES in a single keyboard setup.

 

From this setup it sounds like you set it once and forget it... no adjusting level during the gig. Funny you mention the Sansamp, because on actual bass guitar, that gritty, growling (Geddy) bass sound is one of the main tones I'm striving for. Although for key bass songs what's needed more often is just more conventional (non-synthy) bass guitar sounds.

 

Do you get enough enough dynamic response with this setup, or are you more about the bass line just doing its basic duties?

 

As others have mentioned above, if youve tweaked a few good patches and play them through a good bass sound chain, people will often comment that it sounded like a bass guitar or doghouse was playing.

 

This is my main goal -- great rocking bass guitar when needed, and that same vibe reproduced when playing LH bass as the song calls for. We run our own sound, and do minimal sound checks, so I can never tell if the key bass is too quiet or just right.

 

Maybe adding something like an ART Pro VLA II for its opto compressor will boost and smooth everything out while still allowing for dynamic expression.

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Ive played LH Keyboard bass since the 70s starting with a FenderRhodes pianobass, and then, as now, playing LH bass 80+ gigs/year, I think the primary key to making it work convincingly as an upright or bass guitar equivalent is to use a dedicated bass signal and sound chain, just as a bass guitar would have.

This is a common theme, and I have experimented with running my key bass sounds in my combis separately thru my bass head. I've been going through the AUX return, which then gets fed into the cabs same as my bass guitar. But the levels are unpredictable on stage, even though I spend a good deal of time pre-mixing at home. I've gone back to putting key bass back into the main keyboard mix lately.

 

I think I might need somehow to run a separate feed to FOH for key bass, just like I do with bass guitar and stereo keys.

Yeah, the separate feed to FOH for LH keyboard bass, just like for bass guitar, cures a lot of ills - including the unpredictable levels you mentioned - and sure makes the FOH sound guy's job easier; one FOH channel fader clearly and cleanly controls bass volume without any collateral impact to/from all other keyboard sounds, plus bass tone shaping and routing to subs, etc., is exactly the same as folks are accustomed to doing with bass guitars.

 

A keyboard dedicated to LH bass, such as the MX49 I often use or the Korg R3 I recently retired from bass duties, naturally totally eliminates unpredictable levels resulting from your RH keyboard patch changes, since it's then a totally separate instrument with its own sound chain. But the same thing can be achieved splitting a single keyboard and assigning the bass to the keyboard's aux-out to create a dedicated bass sound chain; if you're careful to maintain consistent bass settings when creating and saving patches, it will feel like your LH has a wholly separate instrument from the RH (although needing aux outs severely limits keyboard choices).

 

A bass DI with some sound shaping tools like the Tech 21 SansAmp Bass VT DI lets you shape and adjust to any FOH system, and that DI in conjunction with various GK bass amp setups (depending upon the venue size and volume needs) has worked well for me, whether using an MX49 for bass in a 2 or 3 keyboard setup or using an aux-out for bass and splitting a Stage3 88 or S90 ES in a single keyboard setup.

From this setup it sounds like you set it once and forget it... no adjusting level during the gig. Funny you mention the Sansamp, because on actual bass guitar, that gritty, growling (Geddy) bass sound is one of the main tones I'm striving for. Although for key bass songs what's needed more often is just more conventional (non-synthy) bass guitar sounds.

 

Do you get enough enough dynamic response with this setup, or are you more about the bass line just doing its basic duties?

IMHO, the SansAmp VT does a great job sucking the last bit of keys synth coloring from bass patches and injecting some Ampeg-sounding gravity and punch, seems to create additional dynamic headroom, and does allow for set-and-forget convenience (but the footswitch and well-marked knobs also allow for quick and accurate sound changes on the fly if desired). I've tried several bass D.I.'s and settled on the SansAmp because it helps produce the Ampeg sound I'd grown accustomed to with Ampeg bass amps before I switched to GK for a lighter and more gig-customizable form factor, and because it has the convenience of running on phantom power or 9v battery. I'm sure the other bass D.I.'s mentioned in this thread produce great results; it's simply a matter of personal preference.

 

Another key advantage of using a bass D.I. for the bass FOH feed is making it easy to cleanly separate bass from all the other keyboard sounds that are being fed to FOH from a stereo D.I. or mixer - it then becomes as if the bass player and the keyboard player were two totally separate players, as far as FOH mixer duties are concerned.

 

Also, feeding the FOH bass channel from a bass D.I. rather than from the back of the bass amp gives you the opportunity to be a little fancy in what goes into and comes out of the bass amp on stage. I typically have bass, a bit of RH keys (using the amp's tone shelving, adds some onstage low-end gravity to the keys - particularly useful to add guts to organ or EP's, or when playing un-split/full keyboard AP for intros) and a bit of kick drum coming from my bass amp when we're running our own sound (bass amp is fed from an aux-out from the mixer, allowing me to pick and choose multiple channels to hear through the bass amp); if the venue is providing FOH sound, I use a small mixer to receive and route the "monitor" line feeds from my KeyLargo and the SansAmp, throwing all the KeyLargo's monitor signal to onstage K8.2s and a bit of the KeyLargo and all of the SansAmp to whatever GK bass amp array I'm using for that venue. In that way, having some good bass amplification actually does more than produce great bass sounds; it enhances all the other keyboard sounds too.

 

As for your dynamic response question, I'm more than satisfied with dynamic response when splitting a hammer-action keyboard; I can easily get a subtle supportive bass, or add a pinch of punch, or dig in for more umph or growl, or use some amped or higher drive P-bass or J-bass settings with rocked octave playing to emulate thumb hits, etc., all just from how I play without touching volume or other controls. Also, to me, fast running upright bass lines sound more realistic when played on a hammer action. On a synth keyboard, I'm less happy with what I can do dynamically to emulate a bass guitar or upright, YMMV.

 

As others have mentioned above, if youve tweaked a few good patches and play them through a good bass sound chain, people will often comment that it sounded like a bass guitar or doghouse was playing.

 

This is my main goal -- great rocking bass guitar when needed, and that same vibe reproduced when playing LH bass as the song calls for. We run our own sound, and do minimal sound checks, so I can never tell if the key bass is too quiet or just right.

 

Maybe adding something like an ART Pro VLA II for its opto compressor will boost and smooth everything out while still allowing for dynamic expression.

You might find, IMHO, that running some good bass patches via a dedicated bass signal through a bass D.I. will give you the sound and dynamics you want (don't forget the EQing/compressing you can do in the FOH channel and the tone shaping you can accomplish with your bass amp either) without the need to add any other components to your bass sound chain.

 

I know what you mean about the challenges of finding the bass volume and tone sweet-spot when your group is running its own sound; we set up and run our own sound probably 60% of the time. Knowing what your bass feed is going to consistently produce independent of all other kb sounds gets you most of the way there; keeping consistent stage volume as a band and consistent relative channel settings (we cheat on that, using show presets on a digital mixer that have been tweaked through time and saved; "shows" are then recalled depending upon indoor/outdoor/venue size/primary genre, no soundcheck required) will get you almost totally there. To get the rest of the way there, if I may offer a tip, it would be to set up your sound levels with your keyboard bass volume control at its midpoint (making sure the FOH mixer gain settings will allow for increases in your source volume feed without clipping), to give you maximum flexibility to quickly and easily season the bass volume just from your keyboard during songs, without needing to touch the mixer or amp or bass D.I. settings.

 

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Yeah, the separate feed to FOH for LH keyboard bass, just like for bass guitar, cures a lot of ills - including the unpredictable levels you mentioned - and sure makes the FOH sound guy's job easier; one FOH channel fader clearly and cleanly controls bass volume without any collateral impact to/from all other keyboard sounds, plus bass tone shaping and routing to subs, etc., is exactly the same as folks are accustomed to doing with bass guitars.

Yes, that's what I do. Or more often on my LH bass gigs, when there's typically no separate FOH guy and PA has got nothing but vocals, I split the bass off into a bass amp.

 

A keyboard dedicated to LH bass, such as the MX49 I often use or the Korg R3 I recently retired from bass duties, naturally totally eliminates unpredictable levels resulting from your RH keyboard patch changes, since it's then a totally separate instrument with its own sound chain. But the same thing can be achieved splitting a single keyboard and assigning the bass to the keyboard's aux-out to create a dedicated bass sound chain; if you're careful to maintain consistent bass settings when creating and saving patches, it will feel like your LH has a wholly separate instrument from the RH (although needing aux outs severely limits keyboard choices).

Yes, I split a keyboard for bass rather than bring another keyboard for it, but set it up so that it is totally separate. Most of my boards don't have an aux out, but many let me pan bass to one of the stereo outputs and all my other sounds to the other. One way to automatically keep the bass level constant (and also free of any other potential glitches) is to never change the LH bass sound on the board, but instead, only change what you're playing on the right. Not all keyboards are adept at this, but some are pretty usable this way.

 

I actually had a thread about this a while back... https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2940357/Keyboard_for_LH_bass

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I'm super grateful for these tips. It's too late now to try any of this, but tomorrow I'll crank up the studio mix, send key bass to its own channels, and see what needs to be adjusted.

 

One more factor to consider that may be muddying the issue: for key bass, as with all my layered keyboard sounds, I'm using multiple sources. Ch4 has the Minitaur, Kronos combi bass is on ch1, Rev2 bass is on ch2, and the Integra is doubling the Kronos and/or Rev2 on ch1 or ch2 for LH bass. I do play 2 tiers of keys, and tend to use a chorus bass differently for a verse bass, so I am switching which tier of keys I'm playing based on which part of the song we're at. Sounds complicated, but it's really pretty intuitive. Then again, maybe this is just adding to the confusion?

 

Maybe I need to start bringing my XR18 to augment my Key Largo. Part of my new goals are recording the band's video and audio so I can make compiled promo videos anyway.

 

Bottomline is, I do need to return to using a separate feed for key bass. That was my first instinct, it makes the most rational sense, and your advice and experience only reaffirms that.

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I play in a trio with no dedicated bass player. Most of my setups have a P bass sound for the LH. I also keep a short scale Ibanez bass with a wireless plugged into a DI. The guitarist has the same setup. For some of the songs we do where the bass is important either he or I switch to bass. Usually me. Consequently, over the last couple years I've gotten pretty good at bass and much better at using my LH. I never owned or played a bass before. Since I could play guitar and mandolin I thought "How hard can it be?". I quickly learned that a bass player and a guitarist who can play a couple bass lines are two totally different things.

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