As60i0Ul4m5ps3 Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 Hi, Im trying to find a keyboard that comes closest to the ideal determined by the following list of features, listed in decreasing order of importance: 1. MIDI input and outputideally including 5-pin DIN ports 2. Weighs less than 14 kg (30 lbs) 3. Sturdy 4. At least 73 waterfall organ-style keys 5. Internal sounds that are acceptable in mono for live performance, including: - a. Hammond B3 organ emulation - b. Basic synth - c. Wurlitzer - d. Rhodes - e. Acoustic piano 6. At least four zones that can be split and layered as desired 7. Drawbars/faders that send MIDI dataideally at least nine 8. Pitch bend controller 9. A good number of knobs and buttons that are capable of sending assignable MIDI CC messages 10. Pedal inputs for: - a. Expression pedal - b. Sustain pedal 11. Aftertouch 12. Built-in audio interface 13. Ability to have a separate output for organ so that it can be run through a Leslie emulator pedal 14. Possibility of importing external user samples 15. Internal speakers 16. Under $US1,800 The best options I've found so far are: * Nord Stage 3 Compact - * Fixed split points - * Aftertouch - * Expensive * Dexibell Combo J7 - * Split and layer - * Can add Sound Fonts - * Expensive * Nord Stage (EX/2/2 EX) Compact - * Three zones - * Fixed split points - * Digital drawbars - * Aftertouch - * Expensive, but a cheap second-hand one might turn up eventually * Roland VR-730 - * Split and layer - * If the keyboard is split, with organ in the lower part and piano (for example) in the upper part, the Leslie effect will apply to both parts - * Drawbars do not send MIDI CC messagesonly Sysex messages (but I dont know how much of a problem that is?) - * No separate output for organ - * Comparatively cheap * Nord Electro 5D/6D 73 - * Split and layer - * Fixed split points - * No pitch bend controller - * Cannot use an external pitch-bend controller and the Electro keyboard at the same time * Hammond SK1 - * Keyboard can be split, but one zone must be organ - * No layering - * No pitch bend controller - * May be able to control pitch bend using an external controller? * Vox Continental - * Can split using organ sounds only - * Virtual drawbars (not sure about their MIDI functionality) - * Quite a bit of flat space on top of the keyboard to rest a laptop or sound module - * Comparatively cheap * Nord Electro 3D 73/4 SW73 - * Can split using organ sounds only - * No layering - * Digital drawbars - * No pitch bend controller - * Does not accept pitch bend MIDI messages * Nord Electro 2D 73 - * Can split using organ sounds only - * No layering - * Digital drawbars - * No pitch bend controller - * Does not accept pitch bend MIDI messages - * Not compatible with the Nord Piano Library * Numa Organ 2 - * No other sounds besides organ - * Comparatively cheap At this stage, Im thinking I might get a Roland VR-730 while I watch out for a cheap second-hand Nord Stage Compact. There are a few things Im not sure about with the VR-730, however. How much of a problem is it that the drawbars dont transmit standard MIDI CC messages? Will it be a problem for using them to control drawbar settings for VB3 II in MainStage, or is it possible to teach MainStage to translate the SysEx messages into the right CC messages? (Apologies for my ignorance here.) I assume that it would be a problem for controlling another keyboard or hardware module. But I take it that the problem might be solved (with some effort) by using a MIDI translator box? Ill also need to try out the VR-730 piano sounds in mono to see if they are usable, because Ive had problems with Roland piano sounds collapsed to mono before. If these problems are too serious, Ill try to look for a Nord Electro 5D/6D 73, though they are pretty much at my budget limit. Any ideas are most welcome! Thanks a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudyS Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 Are you actually going to buy all these "best of" keyboards, or do you just want to know what people like best.... Quote Rudy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 I remember there is someone here who uses the MIDI Solutions Event processor to remap Roland VR sysex drawbars to CC. If you end up using it in conjunction with a laptop VST system, I assume there's a way to do the same remapping in software. As an aside, the VR-700 and VR-760 beat the VR-730 in many ways, but they're over your 30 lb weight limit. If you could compromise on waterfall as long as the action was still organ-friendly other than the lip, you could look at the Kurzweil Artis 7 which meets your top ten features and is in budget. I think it is the only board that does. A point of subtle differentiation that might matter... you mention that you'd like at least 4 zones, but boards can differ between the number of MIDI zones they have and the number of zones supported for internal sounds. So for example, you mention that some Nord Stage models have three zones, but for external MIDI use all Stages have only two, or conversely, you mention the Hammond SK1 as splittable to two sounds, but for MIDI, it supports three zones. Your VR730 comment of "No separate output for organ" applies to the Vox as well. I'm pretty sure it is incorrect that you can't use external pitch bend while playing Electro 5's internal keys. SK1 supports a kind of pitch bend feature from a footswitch, it works on internal sounds only. Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
As60i0Ul4m5ps3 Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 Thanks AnotherScott for yet more valuable and very generous advice. Your VR730 comment of "No separate output for organ" applies to the Vox as well. Right, thanks. I thought I saw in the manual that it's possible to adjust the panning of the keyboard parts, making it possible to dedicate one side of the stereo output to organ only, but now I see that I was actually looking at the MIDI setting guide, which says that the Vox receives MIDI CCs for panning. But there doesn't seem to be any controller for it on the keyboard itself. I wonder if there's some way of getting the result I mentioned by sending the relevant CCs for panning to the keyboard by MIDI, then? I'm pretty sure it is incorrect that you can't use external pitch bend while playing Electro 5's internal keys. I may have got this wrong, but I read that the Electro 5 only receives pitch-bend messages for 'Part Upper' in 'MIDI Upper Receive Mode', and that 'Part Upper' can only be played from an external keyboard: In this scenario, the Nord Electro 5 is set up to receive MIdI on Part Upper, using an external keyboard to play its corresponding sound engine. Part Lower is played with the keyboard of the Nord Electro 5, using one of the remaining sound engines. In this setup, Part Lower will utilize the entire keyboard of the Nord Electro 5 and Part Upper can only be addressed through MIDI sent to the Upper split channel. Also, when playing Part Upper on the Upper split MIDI channel using an external keyboard, any received pitch bend messages will be applied to the sound engine of the Upper part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
As60i0Ul4m5ps3 Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 I'm asking because I'm updating my gear since my old main keyboard died and I'm getting back into playing seriously again. I want to know what people like best so that I know what my options are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 I may have got this wrong, but I read that the Electro 5 only receives pitch-bend messages for 'Part Upper' that is true and that 'Part Upper' can only be played from an external keyboard that is not true The key words from your manual quote are "in this scenario." That is not the only scenario for playing an Upper part. In fact, more often, Upper part is played from the internal keys. I *think* Upper part still responds to pitch bend regardless, but I never tried it myself. Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
As60i0Ul4m5ps3 Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 Ok, thanks. I think I got the impression that the Electro 5 only receives pitch bend messages when it's in MIDI Upper Receive Mode from a post on some other forum plus the fact that the section on MIDI Upper Receive Mode is the only place in the manual where pitch bend gets mentioned. I'll try to test it at some point when I'm trying out an Electro 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleer Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 Play the Vox. Youll get hooked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 I *think* Upper part still responds to pitch bend regardless, but I never tried it myself. Ok, thanks. I think I got the impression that the Electro 5 only receives pitch bend messages when it's in MIDI Upper Receive Mode from a post on some other forum plus the fact that the section on MIDI Upper Receive Mode is the only place in the manual where pitch bend gets mentioned. I'll try to test it at some point when I'm trying out an Electro 5. Actually I think you were correct, I'm pretty sure the E5 will only respond to the bend in the mode where the Upper sound is being played from external keys. It does sound that way from the manual. At the time, I hadn't seen the latest manual, and was relying only on the info in the OS update notes, which were less explicit. Curious to know what you finally settled on... Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 A possible way around the issue discussed in the previous post... You might be able to play "Part Upper" (in this split mode) from the internal keys after all, if you ran a cable to go from the 5-pin MIDI OUT back into the MIDI IN. Then its own keys should be seen as "external" keys triggering the UPPER sound. (You'd want to silence the Lower sound while doing this.) I think this might work. Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdAct Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 A possible way around the issue discussed in the previous post... You might be able to play "Part Upper" (in this split mode) from the internal keys after all, if you ran a cable to go from the 5-pin MIDI OUT back into the MIDI IN. Then its own keys should be seen as "external" keys triggering the UPPER sound. (You'd want to silence the Lower sound while doing this.) I think this might work. Scott, that's interesting. I assume that, before going back into the MIDI in, you'd have to combine the MIDI data with that from another controller for pitch bend etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 Scott, that's interesting. I assume that, before going back into the MIDI in, you'd have to combine the MIDI data with that from another controller for pitch bend etc. If your pitch bend source can connect via USB (e.g. if it's an iPhone app), then you can connect the bending device to the USB port (DIN and USB MIDI are active simultaneously on the NE5), but yeah, if your bender needs to connect via the 5-pin DIN, you would need a MIDI Merge device. Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdAct Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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