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7ths Chords #2983037
04/02/19 11:37 AM
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Writing a couple of Blues songs this weekend in Major keys, I found myself using 7ths in the 1,4(7/,&5(7) for the first two bars.

It made me think about those days when our band was covering a lot of Hank Williams songs and Mansion On The Hill came to mind. Hank used a lot of 7ths there as well.

Do you guys use the 7ths often? Is is more prominent in any genre?

GP Island
Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate] #2983039
04/02/19 11:55 AM
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I use tons of 7ths through entire tunes...I abuse 7ths, 9ths and 6ths (13ths) too! They add a ton of color. I will use them in minor keys as well...I love 7th's! cool


Take care, Larryz
Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz] #2983097
04/02/19 04:11 PM
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Well, they're essential for blues (C&W styles, too) & almost any rock tune, eh ?
Common even in European classical.
Other than tweaking the 3rd, it's the most musical effect available.

Are they new to you or something, Doc ?


d=halfnote
Re: 7ths Chords [Re: d / halfnote] #2983106
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Originally Posted By: d / halfnote

Are they new to you or something, Doc ?

No. Among the first chords I learned some 70+ years ago. They just seemed to always fit where they fit if you know what I mean.

But when I was writing this melody the other day, I realized how dramatic they were. Especially when I use the G7 then hammer on the Gmaj.

Last edited by DocPate; 04/02/19 04:48 PM.
Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate] #2983139
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I use dominant 7ths, minor 7ths, and major 7ths all of the time, although I do not think about that at all. Once I write or learn a song it is ingrained in the hands (for as long as I practice it regularly) So although I use them, I rarely consciously think about that in my practice or performance.


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Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate] #2983156
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Originally Posted By: DocPate
Originally Posted By: d / halfnote

Are they new to you or something, Doc ?

No. Among the first chords I learned some 70+ years ago. They just seemed to always fit where they fit if you know what I mean.

But when I was writing this melody the other day, I realized how dramatic they were. Especially when I use the G7 then hammer on the Gmaj.


There are a number of things I might point out abt the inter-related qualities of 7ths as intervals but that may be too broad a subject for here.

I will mention that on of my fave uses of the chord form(s) is doing something like a
[ V IV I ] progression that becomes a [ I bVII IV ] progression
(or vice versa).
Is that the kinda idea yer looking for ?
Maybe not since it's really abt
a similar progression involving the 7th as a chord rather than an interval...

There are also, of course, numerous ways to make more subtle use in chord substitutions.


d=halfnote
Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz] #2984988
04/13/19 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
I use tons of 7ths through entire tunes...I abuse 7ths, 9ths and 6ths (13ths) too! They add a ton of color. I will use them in minor keys as well...I love 7th's! cool



As usual, I concur with Bro. Larry. Playing 9ths, 11ths and 13ths add color and interest to your harmonies as well as offering melodic opportunities.
They are called "dominant extensions". It is important to mention that there is only one dominant chord in the harmonized scale- the V7. This holds true whether your playing in "Tertian" (harmony in thirds,) or "extended" (harmony in 7ths) harmony.


Last edited by Fred_C; 04/13/19 08:57 PM.

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Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C] #2985046
04/14/19 01:25 PM
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Thanks Brother Fred, Your knowledge and your comments (and not just because you concurred with me), just goes to show what a valuable asset you are to this guitar forum! thu


Take care, Larryz
Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz] #2985049
04/14/19 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
Thanks Brother Fred, Your knowledge and your comments (and not just because you concurred with me), just goes to show what a valuable asset you are to this guitar forum! thu


All I can add is AMEN

Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz] #2985084
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Thanks, gents. I try to make a positive contribution to any thread I participate in.


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Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C] #2985321
04/15/19 10:26 PM
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I use 7ths and 9ths all the time. I find that they work just fine in major and minor keys. Will often use a 7th to resolve the 5 in a minor 12 bar run. Extremely versatile!


Never a DUH! moment! Well, almost never. OK, OK! Sometimes never!
Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Bluesape] #2985618
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Originally Posted By: Bluesape
I use 7ths and 9ths all the time. I find that they work just fine in major and minor keys. Will often use a 7th to resolve the 5 in a minor 12 bar run. Extremely versatile!


When playing Blues i ,often resolve to the major 3rd.


If you play cool, you are cool.
Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C] #2985625
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
When playing Blues i ,often resolve to the major 3rd.


The Picardy third.


Scott Fraser
Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Scott Fraser] #2985692
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Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
When playing Blues i ,often resolve to the major 3rd.


The Picardy third.


Exactly! Sounds great!


If you play cool, you are cool.
Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C] #2985776
04/18/19 09:02 AM
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I can see that Fred. Playing blues in E minor the Major G does make sense.

Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate] #2985787
04/18/19 10:24 AM
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7ths. I'm a disciple of James Burton.


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Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate] #2985797
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Originally Posted By: DocPate
I can see that Fred. Playing blues in E minor the Major G does make sense.



G# .


If you play cool, you are cool.
Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C] #2985840
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Originally Posted By: DocPate
I can see that Fred. Playing blues in E minor the Major G does make sense.



G# .

You're the teacher and master but I'm confused. Isn't E minor:

i – E minor, E minor seventh (Emin, Emin7)
iidim – F# diminished, F# minor seventh flat five (F#dim, F#m7b5)
III – G major, G major seventh (Gmaj, Gmaj7)
iv – A minor, A minor seventh (Amin, Amin7)
v – B minor, B minor seventh (Bmin, Bmin7)
VI – C major, C major seventh (Cmaj, Cmaj7)
VII – D major, D dominant seventh (Dmaj, D7)

Last edited by DocPate; 04/18/19 04:11 PM.
Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate] #2985860
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Yes. I guess I didn't explain. I was discussing playing the A minor Pentatonic over a Blues in A Major. In that instance, the V7 chord would be E7. I was thinking about resolving to the Major 3rd tone of the E7 (G#) rather than the root (E) or the b7 (D). Also, resolving the I chord (A) to the Major 3rd (C#) rather than the predictable Root (A). You can get a nice bluesy sound by bending the b3 (C) into the C#. Sorry. I should have mentioned that.

In my defense, I should mention that I still have not replaced my dead computer, so I am posting from my phone. I hate typing with my thumb, so I'm trying to keep my comments short. You know, I can do almost everything from my phone, but still need a damn computer for the rest.

BTW. I do NOT consider myself a teacher and certainly not a master
I'm a guitarist, just like you and everyone else on this forum. I also belong to the Jazz Guitar Forum and there are numerous members whose expertise and abilities are light years ahead of mine.



If you play cool, you are cool.
Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C] #2985880
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You underrate yourself Fred.

Very knowledgeable! I understand now where you are coming from.

Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate] #2985933
04/19/19 11:43 AM
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Brother Fred, Maybe you can find a keyboard that plugs into that phone of yours or get yourself a tablet with a big typing screen? Compared to me, you are both a teacher and a master LOL! cool


Take care, Larryz
Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz] #2985947
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Bro. Larry,

The main requirement for a computer is that my hard drive contains a multitude of important WORD documents like my resume, DD214 etc., as well as several musical charts two of which I paid to have created for me. These documents are very important to me.

Thank you for the kind compliment, but I stopped teaching and performing about 5 years ago. I now play solely for my own enjoyment and to feed my musical "soul".

I come to this forum and the JGF to "hang out" with other musicians. If I can offer information that will benefit others, I am happy to do so. However, it is not my intention to be pedantic or to set myself up as some sort of "expert".As a matter of fact, I am considering purchasing a one year membership to Truefire for $200. They boast 140 Jazz courses and I can continue learning without spending $50/hour for private instruction. I might even take a "Rockabilly" course or two and get into some "Texas Swing". I am a student of the guitar.


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Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C] #2985983
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My own introduction to m7, Maj7, and other voicings beyond plain m and Maj and R5thR "Power Chords" came unexpectedly from Andy Summers' delicious, ear-tweaking chord-work in the Police's "Roxanne" back in the '80s; I was never the same. I learned it from "TAB" in an issue of Guitar for the Practicing Musician, and rounded-out the experience by listening very closely to the original recording via my Walkman headphones and concluding that there were a few small errors in the magazine's printed version! Multi-level learning and shaping all-around. Ever since, so much of my own music has so rarely used the more typical garden-variety voicings and grips that when I do, it stands out and sounds like a musical "effect"!

Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
When playing Blues i ,often resolve to the major 3rd.


The Picardy third.


Exactly! Sounds great!


I believe that I ran across that in the ends of some passages in a Beatles song; "Things We Said Today", perhaps... ?


Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

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Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Caevan O'Shite] #2986016
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@Caev,

That's exactly the methodology I use to learn new music. First, I listen to as many recordings of the tune as I can find. I want to hear what other artists think. I steal some ideas. Then, I learn an arrangement from a chart. Then, I'll memorize it and finally, I'll incorporate the ideas I stole and add some of my own ideas. It is important to sound like you, rather than someone else when playing Jazz and Blues.


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Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C] #2986024
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WTF???

"The Beatles had a knack for creating great chord progressions. One of the unique blends of chord work comes from a concept called subdominant minor harmony. The effect is so cool that when I learned of this little technique I would introduce it to my students as Beatleism. The reason is that SDM harmony is common element in Beatles music. I think that the Beatles just found the sound and decided to run with it. Paul McCartney had stated that the Beatles had to figure stuff out because they didn’t use theory at the time. It was trial and error and imagination that made them great.

I use the term Beatleism because it is an amusing way to remember a powerful technique. The technique is to use the b6 (Ab) tone to create the interaction of major scale with outside elements. The C major scale does not have a b6 (Ab) tone. The outside chords that contain the b6 note in relation to the C major scale create an interplay with the C major scale chords because they resolve into the chords and enhance the sounds. The b6 element moves into the G chord, the A minor chord, The E major chord is a great example as is the Bb chord. Both the E maj (G# note) and Bb (Ab note) chord contain a b6/#5 note. The b6/#5 note resolves into the C major scale chords with a powerful chord motion.

Ab, Bb, And C maj line up quite nicely. Subdominant minor harmony can be used in many different situations. If your chord progression needs a boost, you can weave some subdominant minor harmony into your progressions. Experiment with simple chord progressions in the key of C to work the magic. Almost any chord or group of chords that have a b6 in relation to the chord progression at hand can be used. To keep it simple use the term Beatlism, just remember what it represents. The b6 note in outside chord structures can be used for any key. Whatever the key is, track down the b6 property and use it for the outside chords.

Another good technique is to use substitutions to spruce up your chord progressions. Substitutions are chords that have the same harmonic cadence of the chord progression but with different chords. The idea is to create variations of the chords sound without changing the properties of the chord motion. Here is a sample in the key of C.

The chords of the C major scale are:

I C maj, II Dmin, III Emin, IV Fmaj, V G7, VI Amin *VII B-7b5 and VIII C maj

The I, III, and VI chords are tonic chords/ used for stability and rest.

The II, IV, and *VII chords are subdominant chords/ used for motion. They should resolve into a more powerful chord.

The V and and *VII chords are dominant chords/ they sound great when resolving into a tonic chord.

The *VII is a dual function chord, If it moves into a dominant chord it acts like a subdominant chord. If it moves into a tonic chord, it acts like a dominant chord.

The chords of like cadence can be substituted for each other. Play the examples below to experience the effect.

I Cmaj, VI Amin, IV Fmaj, V G7.

VI Amin, I Cmaj, IV Fmaj, *VII B-7b5

III Emin, VI Amin *VII B-7b5 V G

I Cmaj, VI Amin, IV F, V G7.

P.S. You can also double up on your cadence experiments with your own progressions."


https://symposium.music.org/index.php/49...lation-concepts

Last edited by DocPate; 04/19/19 08:10 PM.
Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate] #2986074
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SMH is a very interesting concept of which I was previously unaware.

You taught me something, Doc. Thanks!


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Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Fred_C] #2986089
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Fred, it taught me something as well. Interesting articles.

Re: 7ths Chords [Re: DocPate] #2986094
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Brother Fred, Texas Swing and Rockabilly are a couple of my favorite genres. Both still use a clean sounding guitar and a lot of 7th, 9th and 6th chords too! Your equipment and jazz background should fit right in.

Like you, I'm staying home and playing for my own enjoyment these days but I do get together every other week or so and play with the guys just for practice and for fun. I have one more wedding commitment and that's going to be my last performance (other than an open mic or benefit gig once in a blue moon!). cool

Last edited by Larryz; 04/20/19 12:11 PM.

Take care, Larryz
Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz] #2986121
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+1 Larry on your music choice. Me too?


I guess it takes at least 2 guitar players to adequately play the SMH

Interesting though

Read more: http://guitarplayersforum.boards.net/thread/794/subdominant-minor-harmony#ixzz5lexGr0wY

Re: 7ths Chords [Re: Larryz] #2986282
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Bro. Larry,

Yeah, love Texas Swing, Rockabilly and of course 30's & 40's Swing Jazz.

I'm excited about learning some new music. The Truefire membership is going to be my 70th b'day present to myself. I'm certain that some of those 140 Jazz courses will benefit me.

I thought about acquiring a new instrument, but truthfully, I don't need any more guitars. I am a Jazz and Blues player and my little collection will handle both genres with ease.


If you play cool, you are cool.
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