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I'm pretty new to this forum, but I feel like I'm talking to kin. Anybody here got advice for a hybrid bass guitar / left hand keyboard bass player?

 

I play bass guitar as my main, but I want my keys ability grow, esp since my hands hurt and cramp up more lately. I want to shift more to keyboard left hand bass + right hand keys + foot-dancing for chords and Taurus bass drones...

 

But the main difference I notice between keyboard bass guitar versus actual bass guitar bass is both volume "fullness" and dynamic responsiveness. I play bass aggressively when needed, but also lay back with the kick drum when the song calls for it.

 

There's some kind of unpleasant / uninteresting overly compressed "sameness" with the factory presets.

 

I don't want to just trigger cheap MIDI lines for bass. I've always been very expressive on bass (Geddy, Flea, P-Nut, Zender).

 

Is there just a built-in limitation for keyboard bass, or are there some kind of programming "features" I can use to get my left hand keyboard bass closer to the expressiveness I had playing bass guitar?

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Im not a real bass player, but am playing LH bass 95% of the time in bands as bass players are uncommon where I live. Custom patches can potentially help a lot with expressiveness. As can your base waveforms that the sounds are built from. People who go the laptop route seem to like Trillium software. What keyboard are you using?

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

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If using sampled bass sounds look for something with a velocity-controlled dynamic filter. This will vary the sound depending on how hard you play. Some sampled basses are programmed to velocity-switch to a slap sound when you hit it really hard. Best to try out as many sample-based Keyboards/ROMplers/Samplers as possible to find what suits you best.

 

If you don't need authentic bass guitar sound consider an analog or virtual analog synth and program your own sounds. Many newer synths have filters that can be controlled by velocity.

 

Yamaha DX-style FM synthesis is capable of producing a wide variety of dynamic bass sounds. Can be difficult to program yourself but there are a loads of bass patches available.

 

Another option that responds dynamically is the Fender Rhodes Piano Bass. These are electro-mechanical with hammers hitting tone bars that produce a sound that is amplified with pickups similar to a bass guitar. The design goes way back to the early 60's but they haven't been built since the early 80's. They have become expensive in the last few years and are a bit big and heavy but there is nothing else quite like it.

C3/122, M102A, Vox V301H, Farfisa Compact, Gibson G101, GEM P, RMI 300A, Piano Bass, Pianet , Prophet 5 rev. 2, Pro-One, Matrix 12, OB8, Korg MS20, Jupiter 6, Juno 60, PX-5S, Nord Stage 3 Compact
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I bought a moog minitaur just for bass.

I have programmed sounds for almost all musical styles.

I am very happy with the sound quality!

Kurzweil K2661 + full options,iMac 27",Mac book white,Apogee Element 24 + Duet,Genelec 8030A,Strymon Lex + Flint,Hohner Pianet T,Radial Key-Largo,Kawai K5000W,Moog Minitaur,Yamaha Reface YC + CP, iPad 9th Gen, Arturia Beatstep + V Collection 9

 

https://antonisadelfidis.bandcamp.com

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Thanks everyone for the replies.

 

My main keyboard is a Kronos, with an Integra. I probably should keep on searching for more bass sounds. I do use the bass amp models which help a lot. Using a virtual Rhodes for bass sounds sounds like it might help a lot, even if only layered subtly with a bass guitar sound.

 

I have noticed that FM basses have a lot more body. Maybe I should tweak some of the Kronos' FM basses.

 

The Minitaur is definitely used in my gig rig. Guess I need to go in and actually program more presets to align with the cover combis. Repeated 8th notes, which are super common and essential for feel, is something it does do well without sounding mechanical.

 

Looks like I might have all the tools I need already. I did try running a separate monitor out to the Return of my bass head, to try to match level and tone with my bass guitar. That only complicated things and gave an upper mid-range sound, or too much super low end. Better to just go thru the PA subs.

 

I'm going to re-visit my bass sounds and add much more velocity sensivitity to the filter and amp envelopes.

 

 

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My main keyboard is a Kronos, with an Integra.

IIRC, Integra has SuperNatural bass sounds, which at least theoretically could possibly respond more naturally than the sampled approach, I'd be inclined to spend some time there. Also, if you haven't tried it yet, play your bass sounds through your bass guitar rig as opposed to directly into PA. In my experience, bass sounds through a bass amp generally sounds much more convincing. I often bring a separate small Markbass bass amp to gigs where I am playing LH bass, just to handle the bass.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I play organ/LH bass in a 5-piece jazz+funk group. To get a realistic sound, use sampled basses that change tone with MIDI velocity. There are both hardware and software solutions. I use hardware,

. It is old and the number of tonal changes per sample is limited to three or four, but it is fine for live performance and can be found for around 100USD . Sound engineers love taking a direct feed from it. It has fooled a few in the audience that have approached the stage looking for the bass player.

 

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Another option that responds dynamically is the Fender Rhodes Piano Bass. These are electro-mechanical with hammers hitting tone bars that produce a sound that is amplified with pickups similar to a bass guitar. The design goes way back to the early 60's but they haven't been built since the early 80's. They have become expensive in the last few years and are a bit big and heavy but there is nothing else quite like it.

Seems like most of the other options discussed are more practical for you, but I wanted to chime in that I have one of the Rhodes Piano Basses -- I rescued two from my old middle school band room, because the new director was going to THROW THEM OUT. I gave the one in crummier shape to a friend, who traded it for a full Rhodes, but I sort of regret unloading it, since that was the one with the sparkle top... the one I kept is black.

 

I actually took it out to a gig for the first time in ages last year, when our bass player had a conflict. What I'd forgotten about the Rhodes bass is that the action is MUCH heavier than the synth and organ keyboards I'd gotten used to playing left hand bass on. I was pretty worn out by the end of the gig! Plus, I missed being able to hit the low Ds and Cs that most two- or three-octave keyboards (or organ manuals) open up to you. As a bass player, I'm exclusively a four-string guy who only occasionally plays in drop D, but when I'm playing key bass I love nailing that subby stuff.

 

Anyway, those John Paul Jones-style bassist-doubling-on-keys gigs are some of my favorites to play and to watch. Please share some gig video once you get things happening to your satisfaction!

Samuel B. Lupowitz

Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.

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As bass guitar is my 2nd instrument and keys is my primary, I have a lot of experience playing LH bass.

 

The Minitaur is a real good start. If you get under the hood (using the editor) and turn on things like hard sync and velocity sensing of the filter, you can get closer to a bass guitar without sounding like synth bass. Velocity sensing (along with sweeping pitch of hard sync'd VCO2 with filter EG) will give you the dynamic expression. Hard sync, along with VCO2 detuning (not sure if velocity can be routed to VCO2 pitch?), you can get closer to the tone of a bass guitar. I don't think any of the factory presets do those tricks and that will get you away from the "sameness".

 

As a bass player, there are expressions that a synth won't do so don't be too disappointed. I have approximated the aggressive tone of Geddy by exploiting the extensive modulations on my Alesis Andromeda but those tools aren't available on the Minitaur.

 

I agree that a good bass amp (or tube preamp) can make the sound more convincing.

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Yamaha sampled bass sounds (Motif XS/XF/MOXF/MODX/Montage-era) can be pretty nice, especially if you add the articulations that can be set to play randomly (fret slides for example). I have a dislike for Korg electric bass patches as far as realism goes. Synth bass is strong, but their sampled electric basses are just not that great IMO.

 

People mistake my Motif bass patches for the real thing regularly.

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

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I'm really liking [url:http://www.ifretless.com/#blmg2]iFretless Bass.[/url] If you have an iOS device and a connector there's a free stripped-down version to try.

____________________________________
Rod

Here for the gear.

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Yamaha sampled bass sounds (Motif XS/XF/MOXF/MODX/Montage-era) can be pretty nice, especially if you add the articulations that can be set to play randomly (fret slides for example). I have a dislike for Korg electric bass patches as far as realism goes.

Yes, articulations can help a lot, and that's why I thought to check out the Roland SuperNatural, since those sounds often have articulations that automatically kick in as you play based on whatever combinations of velocity, interval, legato playing. I know Yamaha has switch-based articulations which can be very effective but require another hand (though maybe you can assign those to pedal?)... I wasn't aware you could also set them to activate randomly, that's cool.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Great thing is that bass isn't so much an instrument, but a role. Plenty of great keyboard bass players out there, and each one will have their own preferred hardware and philosophy. One of the funkiest jazz combos I've ever seen, in the Boston area, had a dedicated guy on a Novation Bass Station, and he really brought the booty!

 

One of the unfortunate realities, and tricks to the bass is that it should be much louder and ideally through different amplifiers than the rest of keyboard roles. If you turned up a keyboard loud enough for the bass to really work, the leads would be blasting. It makes sense to have a dedicated board for that role, and treat it like you would a bass guitar (out to a bass amp, and possibly to PA with a sub). The exact hardware or software is up to personal preference, but it needs to be able to punch through the mix but also be very consistent.

 

We've practiced up a few songs in my band using synth bass (particularly "Hey Ya!" where our bass player wants to sing lead and not play), and it works but it just doesn't feel right with my standard keyboard routing.

Puck Funk! :)

 

Equipment: Laptop running lots of nerdy software, some keyboards, noise makersâ¦yada yada yadaâ¦maybe a cat?

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In rock bands I would guess I generally did about 85% key bass. Some stuff I just had to play on my old P bass. Stuff like Alright Now and Sweet Emotion.

 

First rig was a 360 systems Midi Bass into an Ampeg bass amp. Amp sims are good enough I don't mess with a real bass amp anymore, even for bass. I go SansAmp straight to FOH. I like Motif basses myself. In my old Pop/Rock rig my twin detuned TX81Zs were a favorite. I can get some nice synth basses out of the MS-20 engine on the Korg. Everything else Yamaha kicks it's ass.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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This is straight forward painfully obvious. But just in case. You don't need to map your patches in pitch order. I play right hand bass if bass is the most dexerious part. I set Baby Got Back up like this.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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My main keyboard is a Kronos, with an Integra.

IIRC, Integra has SuperNatural bass sounds, which at least theoretically could possibly respond more naturally than the sampled approach, I'd be inclined to spend some time there. Also, if you haven't tried it yet, play your bass sounds through your bass guitar rig as opposed to directly into PA. In my experience, bass sounds through a bass amp generally sounds much more convincing. I often bring a separate small Markbass bass amp to gigs where I am playing LH bass, just to handle the bass.

 

I actually have everything already set up for sending a Kronos AUX out + Minitaur out of the Key Largo's monitor to my Markbass Multiamp Return. But I stopped connecting it that way the past couple months because it wasn't getting that meaty sound to equal my Warwick 5-string, but instead was more boxy and lacked beef.

 

I'll try swapping out the Kronos AUX out for the Integra 7 instead and re-EQ it to match my bass.

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I play organ/LH bass in a 5-piece jazz+funk group. To get a realistic sound, use sampled basses that change tone with MIDI velocity. There are both hardware and software solutions. I use hardware,
. It is old and the number of tonal changes per sample is limited to three or four, but it is fine for live performance and can be found for around 100USD . Sound engineers love taking a direct feed from it. It has fooled a few in the audience that have approached the stage looking for the bass player.

 

Looks interesting, will do some research on it. The fretless sounds pretty good, although I'd be using a more rock bass patch. I know the sound character is bass-like, does it have the mid-low bottom end bump like an actual bass rig?

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Seems like most of the other options discussed are more practical for you, but I wanted to chime in that I have one of the Rhodes Piano Basses.

 

Anyway, those John Paul Jones-style bassist-doubling-on-keys gigs are some of my favorites to play and to watch. Please share some gig video once you get things happening to your satisfaction!

 

I think I'm going to end up layering a Rhodes piano for bass end. Although the band I'm currently in doesn't do any Zeppelin (we some Rush tho), I will definitely share some gig video when I can. I do a good bit of foot dancing triggering chords on my FCB.

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I'm really liking [url:http://www.ifretless.com/#blmg2]iFretless Bass.[/url] If you have an iOS device and a connector there's a free stripped-down version to try.

 

I do have iPads I used to bring to gigs, so I'll consider going the soft route that way. A long-term goal was to try integrating a Macbook into my workflow. I was considering the iRig software bass before Trillium and such. I also got PianoTeq for the same purpose, but I'm not yet up to speed getting Mainstage and everything setup. An iPad straight into the Kronos via audio in may be a stopgap until then, thanks for the suggestion.

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Great thing is that bass isn't so much an instrument, but a role. Plenty of great keyboard bass players out there, and each one will have their own preferred hardware and philosophy. One of the funkiest jazz combos I've ever seen, in the Boston area, had a dedicated guy on a Novation Bass Station, and he really brought the booty!

 

One of the unfortunate realities, and tricks to the bass is that it should be much louder and ideally through different amplifiers than the rest of keyboard roles. If you turned up a keyboard loud enough for the bass to really work, the leads would be blasting. It makes sense to have a dedicated board for that role, and treat it like you would a bass guitar (out to a bass amp, and possibly to PA with a sub). The exact hardware or software is up to personal preference, but it needs to be able to punch through the mix but also be very consistent.

 

We've practiced up a few songs in my band using synth bass (particularly "Hey Ya!" where our bass player wants to sing lead and not play), and it works but it just doesn't feel right with my standard keyboard routing.

 

Part of my "schtick" is that I want to be that one unique bassist + keyboardist for the local cover scene here in Central Florida. The band I'm in now does more 90s and some classic rock, so there are only about a half dozen songs with keys so far. But recently I was also in a couple side bands that did more of the Top 40, and almost half the set I was on keys. Unfortunately I was also the sound guy for all bands I was in, bringing all the gear and experiencing all the extra stress of setting up everyone. I was never sure how good my keyboard bass sound was out in the audience. I got burnt out and took a few months off all music.

 

My focus now is to get back to my schtick and just have fun. I'm looking to have it all -- the awesome keyboard cover sounds, solid keyboard bass and bass guitar, songs that showcase all the fun, while still being a somewhat easy set up. Currently I'm the first to be ready for sound check with my new "3rd tier pedalboard" concept where everything's pre-wired. Getting there, almost at cruise control.

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In rock bands I would guess I generally did about 85% key bass. Some stuff I just had to play on my old P bass. Stuff like Alright Now and Sweet Emotion.

 

First rig was a 360 systems Midi Bass into an Ampeg bass amp. Amp sims are good enough I don't mess with a real bass amp anymore, even for bass. I go SansAmp straight to FOH. I like Motif basses myself. In my old Pop/Rock rig my twin detuned TX81Zs were a favorite. I can get some nice synth basses out of the MS-20 engine on the Korg. Everything else Yamaha kicks it's ass.

 

Oh yes, I looked around and actually bid on a MIDI bass rig. Glad I didn't win it though, because I just have to have that 5th string. But I get all excited thinking about the possibilities triggering my keyboard rig while I'm still playing bass guitar. Maybe one of these days I'll custom order a 5 string from those guys in Australia who still make MIDI basses.

 

Great suggestions from everyone in the thread. Even though the new PC4 looks tempting, if they come out in a 76 key, I'm leaning more towards a MODX7 just for that Yamaha soundset. And its famous arps.

 

 

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Yamaha sampled bass sounds (Motif XS/XF/MOXF/MODX/Montage-era) can be pretty nice, especially if you add the articulations that can be set to play randomly (fret slides for example). I have a dislike for Korg electric bass patches as far as realism goes. Synth bass is strong, but their sampled electric basses are just not that great IMO.

 

People mistake my Motif bass patches for the real thing regularly.

 

Yeah, I struggle to find decent bass guitar happening from the Kronos. I end up layering different synth basses just to get meat, but then sometimes it gets too boomy with PA subs. I'm thinking the MODX may be just what the doctor ordered.

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I have done a lot of gigs where my left hand was the bass player. Initially, I went the Rhodes Piano Bass route.

 

I played in a country band, where the bass player doubled on fiddle, guitar, and electric mandolin. He played an Alembic bass through a 2-channel Alembic pre-amp and an active crossover, highs through a pair of Thiel desigh 12's loaded with JBLs, and lows through a pair of JBL Caberet 15 bass cabinets, powered with a Yamaha 2201 for lows and a Crown D150 for highs. On the songs where I would take over the bass, he would set his bass to sound like the Rhodes, which went through one of the channels in the bass rig. The switch was seamless.

 

I left that band and stopped having to play bass for a while, so I retired and ultimately unloaded the Piano Bass.

 

Most recently, I split the keyboard on my Yamaha MM8, which contains a lot of sounds from the Motif (the MM stands for Mini Motif), and chose the best bass sound it had. Technique made it expressive, but one of the biggest tricks was amplification. I panned the bass to one side, and all other sounds to the other side. Then I ran into 2 channels on my board, since I had my Hammond SK-2 as well. I ran the Hammond in stereo through a pair of 12" Mackie Thumps. Then I ran the piano and other sounds through the Mackies. Since I use a Mackie 1202-VLZ board, the mute button will send the signal to the alt 3-4 output. So, I ran the bass from there to a QSC K10, set on the ground like a little, very powerful bass amp. I placed it like you would a bass amp, so there was a defined location on stage for the bass.

Many people would come up looking for the bass.

 

That being said, I had an issue where 15 minutes before a gig, the power supply for the MM8 died, so I played the entire gig in the SK-2, using the Hammond Bass Drawbars for bass. Had no choice but use only the Mackies, but it worked out fine.

 

I left that band not long after, and didn't bring the Yamaha out again.

 

Now, I don't have to play left hand bass. The band reorganized and now we have a great bass player. I can run full kit in stereo now.

 

"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.

So God helped him and created woman.

 

Now everybody's got the blues."

 

Willie Dixon

 

 

 

 

 

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Part of my "schtick" is that I want to be that one unique bassist + keyboardist for the local cover scene here in Central Florida.

 

Where in Central Florida do you play? I'm over on the Space Coast, and we play a lot.

 

We're strictly weekenders, but we have 6 gigs over the next 3 weeks, including a double on April 20 at Miracle City Harley Davidson in Titusville, and the Port St. John American Legion.

 

There's actually a couple players around here that play bass, one of them playing jazz on a pristine B3 with pedals.

 

 

"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.

So God helped him and created woman.

 

Now everybody's got the blues."

 

Willie Dixon

 

 

 

 

 

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COMBINE THEM! If it took a genius I couldnt do it. Youre playing the same notes, just using a different technique.

 

Watch and learn:

 

[video:youtube]

 

Jake

1967 B-3 w/(2) 122's, Nord C1w/Leslie 2101 top, Nord PedalKeys 27, Nord Electro 4D, IK B3X, QSC K12.2, Yamaha reface YC+CS+CP

 

"It needs a Hammond"

 

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Part of my "schtick" is that I want to be that one unique bassist + keyboardist for the local cover scene here in Central Florida.

 

Where in Central Florida do you play? I'm over on the Space Coast, and we play a lot.

 

We're strictly weekenders, but we have 6 gigs over the next 3 weeks, including a double on April 20 at Miracle City Harley Davidson in Titusville, and the Port St. John American Legion.

 

There's actually a couple players around here that play bass, one of them playing jazz on a pristine B3 with pedals.

 

 

We play in Deland (OB's) to Sanford area mostly, although we do have a biker gig coming up near Mt Dora.

 

I'm hoping we learn a few more country and southern rock songs, that's what seems to get the dance floor packed, at least in the venues we're playing now. It's probably overly ambitious of me, but I thought I could do the banjo and fiddle parts in songs like Save a Horse. I have a Line6 Variax which has a banjo model, and I heard another Kronos player do a convincing fiddle, complete with slides. I looked into learning banjo roll techniques, but it all still sounds too fake on keys. And do I really want to drag out yet another couple pieces of gear for just a song or two?

 

More important to just keep that bass guitar groove going. I really need to revisit going through my bass rig for just the keyboard bass part. Maybe I'll get better results after I incorporate a lot of the suggestions in this thread alone.

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I was in a similar situation - electric bass was my main instrument (at the time, a Gibson RD Artist, which was a great sound, since the Moog electronics allowed getting almost any kind of tone from it). I still have an Epiphone 5-string Les Paul bass - only made one year, in Japan).

 

As I got older, my fretting hand began to cramp, and I made my initial foray into keyboard bass. I bought a used Kurzweil K2000VP - added an external hard drive and the Kurzweil Bass Gallery CD - just a wonderful selection of pro level bass goodness, all kinds of added little effects that worked well for recording.

 

First KEY: A good bass amplifier and speaker combination. I have a Trace-Elliot GP7 bass amp, with Trace 2x10 + horn cabinet and Trace 15 cabinet. The real key in getting a good bass sound (other than feeding a good input and knowing what and when to play) is the amplification chain. Now - even though I still have this rig, I'm way to old now to haul it around.

If I really wanted absolute best bass sound today, I would buy one of the Trace Elliot Transit B pedals. That pedal puts all of the creamy rich bass goodness into a small pedal that is easy to carry and can feed the typical powered PA cabinet or FOH.

 

I currently use a Kurzweil PC2 and PC3 in my church gig. I also drive an iPad from the PC3 for a number of sounds (mostly from Korg Module). For bass, I'm using iFretless, which gives some really good sounds. iFretless can even be used without a keyboard, especially from one of the large iPads, because the basic interface shows up as bass strings on the display, and can be played directly from the iPad.

For a variety of sounds, I also have Bassalicious for occasional use, MiniMoog model D, several other synth apps.

But for real sounding electric bass, iFretless Bass is my primary tool. With already having an iPad, these apps are really low priced compared to PC or Mac apps. Fully charged, I can do 3 hours and still have about 60% battery left, or I can use the current Apple Camera Connector to also be able to charge the iPad, or Korg PlugKey for charging and 5-pin MIDI connection.

 

It can be done, with good results.

 

Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's

HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Jim

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