Fender Pinwheel vs Neo Ventilator II organ demo

[dbran]

Hello all,

 

Fender has a new rotary effect pedal called the Pinwheel. I'm always interested in checking out new rotary pedals to see how they compare to the Ventilator II. This one caught my eye because it has a feature that I like -- the ability to use an external footswitch to control the fast/slow switching. It's also stereo in/out, which is helpful in my rig, and has a "mode" switch that selects between emulating a Leslie 122, 145, or Fender Vibratone. Also, there's a "keyboard" vs. "guitar" voicing switch on the back. The top face knobs include controls for the fast and slow rotary speeds, as well as the ramp time between them, and a separate "drive" control for overdrive. All very encouraging.

 

The guitar demos sound nice, but I haven't been able to find a demo of anyone running an organ through this pedal.

 

So I ordered a pinwheel and did an A/B comparison this afternoon. And then I thought I'd make a quick recording and share it with the group. I recorded two short organ passages through each pedal. For each passage, the Pinwheel is first, Ventilator II is second:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6bod6bi1tjdvhg9/Pinwheel_First_Vent2_Second.wav?dl=0

 

This is my first attempt to share a file on a forum, so I hope it works -- if anyone has trouble downloading the file, just reply here and I'll try to fix it if I can.

 

Notes on the recording: this was played with drawbars 888000248 on a Hammond XK-2. No percussion, chorus, or vibrato, and the XK-2's internal leslie emulation was turned off. The XK-2 has two outputs that I believe are identical. One output went to the mono input of the Pinhweel, the other to the mono input of the Ventilator II. The stereo outputs from each pedal were sent into a Rolls MX122 mixer, and the L/R output of this mixer was recorded into a DAW. I played once with only the Pinwheel turned up at the mixer, then played again with only the Vent turned up, then did all this again for the other short passage. In the DAW I chopped out most of the dead air between the passages, and normalized each section so that they would have roughly the same audio level.

 

The knobs on the Pinwheel were set to try and match my settings on the Vent, in terms of fast/slow speeds, ramp time, and overdrive (though I may not have dialed in quite as much drive on the Pinwheel, as I listen back to it now). The Pinwheel mode switch was set to "1" for "122," which is the cabinet that the Vent is built to emulate, and the voicing was set to "keyboard." The Pinwheel has no way to adjust the "mic distance," as one can do on the Ventilator, so the lower rotor is much more prominent, and the stereo separation is wider, on the Pinwheel. Also, the tone knob on the Pinwheel was set all the way to maximum treble, which got me closest to the sound of the Vent.

 

EDIT -- played with it some more after posting, and I think I actually did get the Pinwheel drive matched as closely as possible to the Vent when I recorded. About 1/3 of the way up, so it's there but not dominating. Past this point, it quickly gets very noticeably overdriven, not in a bad way, but not subtle either.

 

The reverb is coming from the XK-2 -- neither of these pedals supplies that. Also, the overdrive is a combination of the overdrive dialed in from the XK-2 as well as some dialed in on the pedals themselves. The audio was well below clipping when it was recorded, so none of the grit is coming from any kind of digital distortion (or distortion within the mixer).

 

 

My own opinion of the results: The rotary part of the Pinwheel sound is pretty good, but it falls down on the amplifier/cabinet tone emulation -- the tone just doesn't have the "air" or "warmth" of the Vent. Through headphones, this is readily apparent, but even playing through studio monitors out into the room, this lack of character from the pinwheel was really noticeable.

 

Curious to hear what other people's takes are on this pedal, and in any case, hoping this comparison may help others who are considering the Pinwheel. Cheers!

 

 

[Al Coda]

Vent sounds much better to my ears.

 

 

A.C.

[J. Dan]

Yep, I'm liking the vent better as well. Nice choice on the crowded house

[elif]

IMO the Pinwheel was more phase-ey than the Vent. It also had more amplitude variation, maybe due to the Vent's mic distance setting. I also preferred the EQ of the Vent. FWIW, I summed the two channels to mono to detect any glaring frequency cancellation - both seemed okay to my ears.

 

I could probably use either, though prefer the Vent for the reasons mentioned.

[Delaware Dave]

The Vent still rules. I've been using VB3-2 in the Gemini with its leslie sim. Sounds very nice. The last show we did I decided to use the Vent rather than the VB3-2's leslie sim. The difference was immediate and noticeable. The Vent is a great sim and probably still the king even after being out for 9 years. Nothing though, beats a real leslie, nothing. If you want the authentic sound haul the leslie; if you don't want to haul leslie then the best choice is still the Vent. My two cents.

[Doerfler]

Nothing though, beats a real leslie, nothing. If you want the authentic sound haul the leslie; if you don't want to haul leslie's around then the best choice is still the Vent.

 

this seems to be one of the few things we all can agree on.

[Jazz+]

How close is the Mojos sim to the Vent?

[AnotherScott]

How close is the Mojos sim to the Vent?

Mojo's sim is the same as the "VB3-2 in the Gemini " that Dave was talking about. So you at least know what his answer would be. ;-)

[Jon May]

+1 on the Crowded House passage! Coincidentally Ive been ABing my Vent I with the HX3 sim. This came about when a local studio begged me to sell them the Vent. Immediately my internal monologue was no way... cold dead fingers... etc, but whereas the Vent made a significant improvement to my Electro 4 organ, early comparisons with the HX3 reveal not so much. Will make a recording.

[MusicaL]

How close is the Mojos sim to the Vent?

 

IMHO, not.

 

aL

[CEB]

Yes the amp sim / drive and how the drive reacts to the swell pedal is what makes the Vent what it is.

[Jazz+]

Wow, the Vent II is $500.

[dbran]

Yep, I'm liking the vent better as well. Nice choice on the crowded house

 

Thanks Dan!

[dbran]

Nothing though, beats a real leslie, nothing. If you want the authentic sound haul the leslie; if you don't want to haul leslie's around then the best choice is still the Vent.

 

this seems to be one of the few things we all can agree on.

 

Indeed. And I've also observed that, the worse (or let's say less authentic) the original organ sound is, the more it can be helped by running it through a real Leslie or a Vent. The rotating speaker (and amp) element is such a big part of the overall sound, that if it's done well, it can mask a lot of deficiencies in the source.

[dbran]

+1 on the Crowded House passage! Coincidentally Ive been ABing my Vent I with the HX3 sim. This came about when a local studio begged me to sell them the Vent. Immediately my internal monologue was no way... cold dead fingers... etc, but whereas the Vent made a significant improvement to my Electro 4 organ, early comparisons with the HX3 reveal not so much. Will make a recording.

 

Glad to see some love for the Crowded House! I just got to see Neil Finn with Fleetwood Mac last week, it was great to see him up there on stage, and they played "Don't Dream It's Over" with Stevie Nicks singing along. Very nice.

 

Jon, I'm VERY curious to hear your recorded comparison of the HX3 rotary with the Vent, because the HX3 is the next upgrade I'm considering for my organ tones overall, and I'm really hoping that, if the HX3 rotary is good enough, I won't need the Vent any more.

[dbran]

Wow, the Vent II is $500.

 

Ayup. This is why I'm perpetually on the hunt for a cheaper solution with almost-as-good results -- because I could really use several of these pedals, installed at different rehearsal spaces, but can't shell out that kind of money repeatedly for them.

 

So far, I think the best "bang for the buck" rotary emulator has been the Lester K -- not as complex as the Vent to my ears, but it has a real warmth and charm and "aliveness" that just works, particularly with electric pianos, but also with organ. At $140, they're a steal. The only issue for me is that it can't be controlled via an external footswitch, and I can't keep looking down at the floor to be sure I'm hitting the little switch on the face properly, so it's unworkable for me in a real playing situation.

[eric]

The Vent is the real deal and even if some people complain that $500 is too much, look at the history of Leslie simulators. I remember way way back i the early '90s, the absolute industry standard was the Dynacord CLS-222 and it was either $695 or $795. I bought one new for $695 at that time and cost-adjusted over the past ~30 years is way more than the current $500 for the Vent II.

 

For what it's worth, I have three different Vents and did not pay full price for any of them, either bought used or via channels where discounts are possible.

[dbran]

Points very well taken. Absolutely. The Vent is worth every penny! I just wish I had enough pennies for a couple more of them!

[eric]

I still wish there was a rack mount version of the Vent with some expanded features (all the controls of Vent II, perhaps MIDI controlled presets, other?). I suspect it is too much of a niche instrument to be worth producing, but I'd buy one if they could keep the price under $800.

[Delaware Dave]

Wow, the Vent II is $500.

The mini vent is $350, and from a sound perspective, basically the same as the Vent II.

[Caevan O’Shite]

On 3/25/2019 at 3:36 PM, dbran said:

Curious to hear what other people's takes are on this pedal, and in any case, hoping this comparison may help others who are considering the Pinwheel. Cheers!

OK, so I'm a few years late to this party... I've had and definitely enjoyed a Boss RT-20 Rotary Ensemble for years and years. It's actually pretty good; I've put a lot of miles on mine, it was plenty good enough for Gary Moore when he performed Hendrix' "Angel" for his Blues for Jimi concert event and video, and due to some cool quirky things that it'll do that it weren't necessarily intended, I won't part with mine even if I do get a better Leslie-sim pedal. (By the way- guitarist here.  )

So, speaking of getting a better Leslie-sim pedal, I did an internet search for 'Neo Ventilator II vs Fender Pinwheel', and wound up here...

Thank you for that audio comparison clip, dbran! Much appreciated!

The Fender Pinwheel sounds great; the Neo Ventilator II sounds considerably better, though- more complex, layered with textures, "air", particularly while in motion- well, of course, but I mean the way said textural character really shifts and morphs with detail throughout the rotation and not just panning- and especially during speed changes. SOLD. Well, when I can afford to buy.


One shortcoming of the RT-20's is it's Overdrive; anyone can state that it's simulating that of a real-live Leslie and blah blah blah, and they won't change the fact that it's too much too soon at the very beginning of turning the OD control on, very 'flat' with no dynamics or depth of character, just harsh and stiff and unpleasant. I never use my RT-20's Overdrive! But I sure would love to have some grinding, gurgling rotary sounds...

Both the Pinwheel and the Vent II seem to vastly exceed the overdrive of the RT-20! That's what drew me to consider putting the Pinwheel on the list, but it's already knocked out of the line by the Vent, due to your demo and others.

[CEB]

I never thought a real twin rotor Leslie or accurate Leslie emulation works so good on a guitar.  Especially in a loud mix. Guitar doesn’t have the harmonic content to drive a Leslie cab. It’s because the cab is designed to have 80+% of the sound come out the bottom rotor and the crossover cuts off at 800 hz.   Guitar doesn’t have an organ’s tonal ass end. For guitar I prefer things like a uni vibe or chorus pedal or a single rotor cab.  Things like the RT-20 are great for guitar.  

[ElmerJFudd]

Anyone able to plop the wav of the Pinwheel here without dropbox?  I haven't an account. 

 

How's it sound?  Vent comparable?

 

This pedal has been floating around for 2, 3 years, no?  

[elif]

3 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Anyone able to plop the wav of the Pinwheel here without dropbox?  I haven't an account. 

 

How's it sound?  Vent comparable?

 

This pedal has been floating around for 2, 3 years, no?  

 

Try this - converted to mp3.

[Baldwin Funster]

The Vent is still King.

With the high and low rotors it is far more complex.

[analogika]

2 hours ago, ChoppedHam said:

 

Try this - converted to mp3.

Eww. 

Sorry — something really doesn't sit right about the first of those two, both in the first demo and in the second demo. 

I see now that the Pinwheel is the first in both cases, which is just what I expected. Too bright, too panny, not enough "box" and phasiness of a Leslie. It's like they emulated the horn in an open room, not inside the Leslie speaker.
The Vent adds a little crunch, too, in that particular setting, which I like. 

[Caevan O’Shite]

12 hours ago, CEB said:

I never thought a real twin rotor Leslie or accurate Leslie emulation works so good on a guitar.  Especially in a loud mix. Guitar doesn’t have the harmonic content to drive a Leslie cab. It’s because the cab is designed to have 80+% of the sound come out the bottom rotor and the crossover cuts off at 800 hz.   Guitar doesn’t have an organ’s tonal ass end.

You aren't exactly entirely wrong, but "Badge"/Cream, "Something"/Beatles, "No Matter What"/Badfinger, "Angel"/Hendrix, "It Don't Come Easy"/Ringo Starr, "Do You Feel Like We Do"/Frampton, "Hotel California"/The Eagles, "You're So Good to Me"/Beach Boys, etc. etc. etc. etc. all kinda hint at the possibilities of a different conclusion...

Besides that, if I use a Leslie-sim pedal that imitates both the rotating woofer baffle and the spinning horn-tweeter turntable, I am at least occasionally using a Foxrox Octron with Octave-Down and Octave-Up Fuzzes. Still not the range of an organ or most keyboards, but a bigger chunk of it nonetheless. Sometimes maybe even sub-octave (two-octaves down).

[KuruPrionz]

9 minutes ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

You aren't exactly entirely wrong, but "Badge"/Cream, "Something"/Beatles, "No Matter What"/Badfinger, "Angel"/Hendrix, "It Don't Come Easy"/Ringo Starr, "Do You Feel Like We Do"/Frampton, "Hotel California"/The Eagles, "You're So Good to Me"/Beach Boys, etc. etc. etc. etc. all kinda hint at the possibilities of a different conclusion...

Besides that, if I use a Leslie-sim pedal that imitates both the rotating woofer baffle and the spinning horn-tweeter turntable, I am at least occasionally using a Foxrox Octron with Octave-Down and Octave-Up Fuzzes. Still not the range of an organ or most keyboards, but a bigger chunk of it nonetheless. Sometimes maybe even sub-octave (two-octaves down).

Which is to say nothing of Jesse Ed Davis, who played a Tele through a Leslie when I saw him with the Taj Majal Band long ago. 

Taj Mahal's Giant Step album is full of guitar thorugh a Leslie. Since a guitar without a Leslie does not sound like a Hammond without a Leslie, I would not expect them to sound the same just by adding a different speaker.

 

As to one being "better" than the other, that is only opinion. I prefer instruments that are not trapped by the tempered scale personally. 😇

[CEB]

The octave devices help because you are doubling the number of "Tonewheels or Oscillators" driving the effect.  My favorite guitar leslies are the single rotor models.    The guitar is basically 6 thin tonewheels.  A Hammond has 96.  Each key can produce up to 9 tones times 10 fingers its massive.

 

Stuff like Badge works because Pappalardi made space for it and the cabinet was probably in isolation.   

 

I've played guitar through my leslies and its to nuanced to come through in any of my rock gigs.  But I love me some univibe.

[Outkaster]

Sounds terrible.