Sundown Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 Boy, today was a wake-up call... I've played for a long time, but it's amazing how a shortcoming can hide. Maybe my mind chooses parts and phrases that hide it, or maybe with building compositions one part at a time, this particular capability wasn't needed... I sat at my piano today and tried to do the basic 1-4-5 12-bar blues progression with an eighth note chop in the left hand. I then wanted to play chords or solo lines with my right. Short summary, it kicked my ass. Every time I tried to play a different rhythm with my right hand, it would screw up the basic rhythm or notes in the left. When I say "chop", I'm referring to the alternating tonic plus fifth and tonic plus sixth played to an eigth note pattern. You'd recognize the sound in a moment. is an example of a guy doing it on YouTube. I guess it's just something I'll have to practice, practice, practice... I'll be a much better player if I can get that basic independence between left and right hands. I was just surprised that such an "easy" combination knocked me over. I've never had to comp myself in that particular way, and it showed me how poor my independence really is. It wasn't a great day for my self esteem, but if you can't admit your faults, you never grow or get better. Quote Sundown Working on: The Jupiter Bluff; Driven Away Main axes: Kawai MP11 and Kurz PC361 DAW Platform: Cubase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Yeah, it blows me away how many cats back in the day just banged this stuff out. I wonder, when did they learn it? How much time did they spend shedding it before we saw those performances we now look up to? Keep at it, man. We all have stuff that kicks our butt that we need to work on. Quote "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PianoMan51 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Looking back, the chop , which I put in the Boogie Woogie bucket, was my early introduction to groove music. No drummer in living room. No drum machine or backing tracks. Just train the left hand to create a rock steady fundament. BTW, I couldnt listen to the example for long. Erratic time, and an insistence on one particular groove . The great thing about the chop is that once you can play the notes youre now ready to explore the fine shadings between swing and straight eighths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BbAltered Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 I decided last year to get a teacher. I wanted to study only classical music. And I leave every lesson humbled, wondering how I ever came to imagine that I am a good or advanced piano player. (But I am learning a lot - and my skills and abilities are definitely improving.) Re: eight-to-the-bar boogie. Play the LH part alone at 60 bpm, focus on the shifts from the I chord to the IV chord, and the I chord to the V chord. Do that for 10 mins a day, and you'll be able to boogie all night in less than a week. There are a lot of LH patterns you can play: after you learn one, go on and learn another one. Quote J.S. Bach Well Tempered Klavier The collected works of Scott Joplin Ray Charles Genius plus Soul Charlie Parker Omnibook Stevie Wonder Songs in the Key of Life Weather Report Mr. Gone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundown Posted March 23, 2019 Author Share Posted March 23, 2019 Thanks guys - Bb Altered: I may get a teacher later in life. Right now with newborns it's not an option, but when they get older (or when I retire) it's something I want to do. I also appreciate the advice on the 60 bpm exercise. Quote Sundown Working on: The Jupiter Bluff; Driven Away Main axes: Kawai MP11 and Kurz PC361 DAW Platform: Cubase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundown Posted March 23, 2019 Author Share Posted March 23, 2019 It's stuff like this that makes me appreciate organists all the more... I watch Barbara Dennerlein kick out bass, comp with her left hand, improvise with her right, work the expression pedal, and change drawbars and Leslie speeds all at once. It's stunning. Quote Sundown Working on: The Jupiter Bluff; Driven Away Main axes: Kawai MP11 and Kurz PC361 DAW Platform: Cubase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalH Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 I started daily boogie practice about 3 weeks ago for the same reason - to get some of that independence back. Luckily it came quite quickly. Once the brain learns the LH pattern you can switch the LH to autopilot and concentrate on more complex rhythms in the RH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Loving Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Try this: https://www.homespun.com/instructors/dr-john/ Quote "Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
area51recording Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 I have the same issue with ANYTHING that has to do with LH/RH independence....right now I'm trying to get LH bass together on organ. Any time I try to do anything with my right hand solo wise the pattern in the left hand falls apart. The only thing that helps me is to slow things down to a glacial crawl, and eventually it gets a bit better. SLOW going on progress though.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldwin Funster Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Not the chop but who cares. [video:youtube] Quote FunMachine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Link Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Its not a thing I use and when I sat down to try, it was pretty awful. A straight walking LH or a 1-34 New Orleans bass is second nature after years of playing them. Theres always SOMETHING to work on! Quote aka âmisterdregsâ Nord Electro 5D 73 Yamaha P105 Kurzweil PC3LE7 Motion Sound KP200S Schimmel 6-10LE QSC CP-12 Westone AM Pro 30 IEMs Rolls PM55P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrokeys Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 As someone who took piano lessons and then gravitated to organ, I will say that boogie woogie piano, for the most part, is the most transferable skill. A lot of organ foot pedal bass is the "thump" while the actual bass is left hand. The chop is of limited utility but keep working on those single note patterns and who knows, you might find yourself in love with a Hammond someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundown Posted March 23, 2019 Author Share Posted March 23, 2019 ...you might find yourself in love with a Hammond someday. Oh, Im getting there! Ive even done a 180 on the squabble... When used selectively, its a great sound on the real instrument. I wouldnt buy a real organ, but I could definitely see myself getting an XK1 or an XK5. Just playing my PC361 with KB3 is a blast. Quote Sundown Working on: The Jupiter Bluff; Driven Away Main axes: Kawai MP11 and Kurz PC361 DAW Platform: Cubase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundown Posted March 23, 2019 Author Share Posted March 23, 2019 Just curious, guys... When you do play the boogie woogie chop, do you use your index finger for the fifth and your thumb for the sixth, or do you just move your thumb between the two positions? Ive seen it both ways. Quote Sundown Working on: The Jupiter Bluff; Driven Away Main axes: Kawai MP11 and Kurz PC361 DAW Platform: Cubase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldwin Funster Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 So nobody does the inversion ? Quote FunMachine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundown Posted March 23, 2019 Author Share Posted March 23, 2019 So nobody does the inversion ? Would that be tonic on top, fifth and sixth on bottom? Quote Sundown Working on: The Jupiter Bluff; Driven Away Main axes: Kawai MP11 and Kurz PC361 DAW Platform: Cubase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldwin Funster Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Yes. I find it easier but going the 7th gets a little harsh. I assume thats why i dont see anyone using that. Works ok on organ if you dont linger too long. Quote FunMachine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Lobo Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Just curious, guys... When you do play the boogie woogie chop, do you use your index finger for the fifth and your thumb for the sixth, or do you just move your thumb between the two positions? Ive seen it both ways. I instinctively move my thumb. I've tried to use my index finger and thumb but I'm so used to moving my thumb that i just screw up if I try to use my finger. Quote These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Lobo Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 BTW, I too don't have much independence of hands when doing the chop. I can do simple things on RH but inevitably I lose the pattern in the LH. I'm self-taught and not the pro player that many on this board are. I'm fairly good in C because I've been doing that since I was young(er). Today I tried to do it in all 12 keys. I can do it if I concentrate. But if I try to add RH it all goes to hell pretty quickly. Quote These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Nightime Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 I use the thumb for the 5, 6, and yes, the 7. That chop is right for some songs, but it can get very difficult to keep it on time throughout an entire song. I'll play it for a while to establish, then switch off to rocking it, making the groove a little more open, creating some space for the other instruments. 1-5 1-6 1-5 1-6 etc, with the 5 and 6 notes on the beat. I get a smoother groove, and I can put that on autopilot with it still having the groove, and do anything I want with the right hand, both notes, and rhythm. I'll also do the rock sometimes using full chords. Using C as a key center, the upper notes would be E-G F-A E-G F-A Etc. Then you can change it up to get a cool flavor, by staying with the C as the bottom note when you're on the 4 chord, and playing Eb-G F-A Eb-G F-A as the upper notes. Throws a cool little 9th chord in there. Just need to bring it up an octave to keep it from muddying up the sound. Quote "In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome. So God helped him and created woman. Now everybody's got the blues." Willie Dixon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Paxton Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 The one lesson I had with Henry Butler started with him having me play that "chop" in the left hand, and play up and down the blues scale in triplets in the right hand, in C. I did it without much effort. Then he said "Okay, now let's hear it in C#." Uhhh... [clam, crash, miss, train wreck] "Ah!," he said, "There's something we can work on!" He spent the rest of the lesson drilling me on being able to do stuff in all keys, starting with that. I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually played a blues in C#, but the point applies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niacin Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 thumb, and learn it with the tonic on top too so you can choose depending on the key and where you are on the keyboard, especially useful if you're not on an 88. I can walk swing lines until the cows come home, but nailing the shuffle - and having the control to vary the degree of shuffle so you're cooking with the drummer - that's a challenge in itself. Quote Gig keys: Hammond SKpro, Korg Vox Continental, Crumar Mojo 61, Crumar Mojo Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Lobo Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 y'know, in all these years it never occurred to me to play it with the tonic on top. I transferred it from guitar where you want to be riding the tonic note at the bottom, like the E or A string . I'll be trying the chop with the tonic on top at the jam tomorrow night. Quote These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Just curious, guys... When you do play the boogie woogie chop, do you use your index finger for the fifth and your thumb for the sixth, or do you just move your thumb between the two positions? Ive seen it both ways. Index and thumb - you're bouncing from your arm and wrist primarily and not really moving fingers. It works for most of the more complicated LH shuffle riffs (like a b3 to 3 in that whole mess) as well. Quote A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksoper Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually played a blues in C#, but the point applies. Nobody plays blues in C#. Db maybe. Quote 9 Moog things, 3 Roland things, 2 Hammond things and a computer with stuff on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJUSCULE Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Did anyone else laugh out loud at that OP video's intro? Or was that just me? Quote Eric Website Gear page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoken6 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Index and thumb - you're bouncing from your arm and wrist primarily and not really moving fingers. It works for most of the more complicated LH shuffle riffs (like a b3 to 3 in that whole mess) as well. I do index on the 5 and thumb on the 1. @Kanker - how would you finger the alternative b3 to nat-3 pattern? I instinctively put middle finger on the b3 and 2 and index on the nat-3. Cheers Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paughrock Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually played a blues in C#, but the point applies. Every time you play a blues in C, there is a good chance the band will end with a bII7-I cadence..one off the most common blues endings, so knowledge off how to play a Db7 (ie C#7) would be essential. If you intended to take your solo outside, being able to play C# blues would be helpful. Sure, nobody calls C# but you need to be able to play it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldwin Funster Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 If you ever play with a SRV wannabe that detunes his guitar a half step blues in D b is gonna come up. For the keys atleast. Every one else will be in D. Quote FunMachine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider76 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 I saw the Chris Potter trio live recently, and was absolutely blown away by his key player James Francies. The guy was doing crazy fast and complex LH bass lines that I wouldn't be able to do even if I devoted all my hands and brains to it (and of course he was comping and soloing at the same time) Here there's a whole concert (not the one I saw, but you get the idea) [video:youtube] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.