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Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! #2980837
03/19/19 09:28 PM
03/19/19 09:28 PM
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Sam CA Offline OP
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https://www.prosoundnetwork.com/business/busted-counterfeit-pro-audio-gear-seized-in-china

Good catch, but what are they gonna do about the other 100000 factories?

KC Island
Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: Sam CA] #2980853
03/19/19 10:20 PM
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I am surprised that the Chinese police went out to the factory at all. Then again, the article says, "The raid was instigated by Shure..." I don't buy mics on eBay unless the seller is a large, nationally known vendor. I still don't understand how they make fake eggs in China. One would think that with such "ingenuity" they might as well make "genuine," healthy egg substitutes and make more money.

Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: Sam CA] #2980856
03/19/19 10:35 PM
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This is a huge problem for any company manufacturing in China. Almost any high-end product (golf clubs, electronics, etc.) finds that illegal knockoffs are going to show up outside of normal distribution channels. I read an article about expensive golf clubs that were indistinguishable from the real thing because they were made “off the books” in the same factories.

Without getting into politics, the theft of technology and mandatory sharing of proprietary trade secrets as the cost of doing business with China puts American and other countries businesses at a profound disadvantage and needs to be addressed. The Chinese economy is far more dependent on exports than the US. Tariffs to punish cheating should be looked at as a tactic to bring them to the table and not as a protectionist strategy.


Nord Electro 5D 73
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Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: misterdregs] #2980865
03/19/19 11:12 PM
03/19/19 11:12 PM
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China is the best place to perfect your trade at knock offs.
For Petes sake they even had fake Apple Stores.

If you are in China to maximize your profits, don’t cry when they sell your designs under a new name for half the price.

As far as mics go, last time I checked there’s only 3 diaphragm manufactures in the world, all in China.
I bought a pair of KSM8s for 700 bucks.
I was concerned they were knock offs since the seller was in Hong Kong.
Fortunately for me the seller probably bought 1000 wholsale, or just stole these.

I already owned one and they’re 5-600 here in the USA.
Tested them, disassembled, etc.
They’re definately Shure.
If wrong, they’re really getting good at knock offs.

Wonder what fake Analog sounds like,


Magnus C350 + FMR RNP + Realistic Unisphere Mic
Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: hardware] #2980871
03/19/19 11:41 PM
03/19/19 11:41 PM
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Sam CA Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: hardware
...
Wonder what fake Analog sounds like,


It would probably sound like shit! After all the name of the company is 'SoundPu'!!!

They used to only make colorful karaoke mics, but now they're doing high end gears including consoles! So nothing is off limit. They're using American platforms to sell by the way. Talk about pissing in the wind...

Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: misterdregs] #2980874
03/19/19 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: misterdregs
This is a huge problem for any company manufacturing in China. Almost any high-end product (golf clubs, electronics, etc.) finds that illegal knockoffs are going to show up outside of normal distribution channels. I read an article about expensive golf clubs that were indistinguishable from the real thing because they were made “off the books” in the same factories.

Without getting into politics, the theft of technology and mandatory sharing of proprietary trade secrets as the cost of doing business with China puts American and other countries businesses at a profound disadvantage and needs to be addressed. The Chinese economy is far more dependent on exports than the US. Tariffs to punish cheating should be looked at as a tactic to bring them to the table and not as a protectionist strategy.

I was in golf industry for a short time. We had metal detectors at exits in foreign factories. Still a never-ending chase of complete (fake) knockoffs


The baiting I do is purely for entertainment value. Please feel free to ignore it.
Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: MotiDave] #2980940
03/20/19 11:16 AM
03/20/19 11:16 AM
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I guess I don't really want to know how they smuggled out a 460cc driver...


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Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: Wastrel] #2980950
03/20/19 12:33 PM
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This O/p is a sobering reminder how pervasive the 'problem ' is.

Its not just the final product, its also the cheap, low quality copied components.

Imagine, we are buying a $2000- $3800 keyboard- an instrument where we are expecting at least 2 years [ maybe 10 yrs] of perfect performance.

But if the keyboard manufacturer is using 'assembled parts' for the $2000-$3800 keyboard, they have to be wary of cheap crap components leaking into the supply chain.

At least , these keyboard co's better be vigilant. For a keyboard under $1000, I don't have such expectations. I consider that bracket to be a commodity purchase.

Last edited by GregC; 03/20/19 12:34 PM.
Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: Wastrel] #2980963
03/20/19 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: Wastrel
I guess I don't really want to know how they smuggled out a 460cc driver...


they would smuggle driver heads out of the casting / forging plants, not assembled clubs ... and yes they were creative.


The baiting I do is purely for entertainment value. Please feel free to ignore it.
Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: MotiDave] #2980974
03/20/19 02:24 PM
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I heard this on the radio a while ago. Nat Geo's camera crew gets completely stuck in the middle of nowhere because of fake memory cards. They had the same problem with a series of 'forest watcher' cameras.

Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: Sam CA] #2980991
03/20/19 04:23 PM
03/20/19 04:23 PM
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I would bet the only reason these guys got caught was the factory owner ran afoul of the party or the local government. I would bet that if you're in good political standing, your factory doesn't get raided.


You want me to start this song too slow or too fast?

Forte7, Nord Stage 3, XK3c, OB-6, Arturia Collection, Mainstage, MotionSound KBR3D. A bunch of MusicMan Guitars, Line6 stuff
Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: Iconoclast] #2981058
03/21/19 11:25 AM
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It sounds like this was a factory dedicated to making lower quality fakes, but a lot of the grey-market goods coming out of China are produced on legit assembly lines during unofficial "third shifts". The impression I got when I was over there is that this practice is somewhat tolerated by all concerned in exchange for keeping labor and facility costs rock bottom.

I spent a few weeks in Shenzhen where the big smartphone factories are and found countless markets selling knock off smart phones and smart watches. One guy had a recent model i-Phone that was running a custom Android OS mocked up to look like IOS. I assume Apple's operating system was the one thing they couldn't fake.

Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: TechEverlasting] #2981205
03/22/19 10:48 AM
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Products made on the "third shift" have been around for ever. I recall getting Microsoft mouses real cheap 20 years ago in boxes that were identical to the real thing but with Microsoft removed from the artwork. They forgot to remove the small print which included the MS copyright notice!!

Its not like our Customs are slack on enforcing copyright and destroying fakes, Louis Vuitton will attest to that, but the manufacturer has to alert them.

I have an Android phone that has a Windows GUI, but I downloaded Squarehome from the Play store so I guess MS are cool with that since they abandoned phone and released free apps for Android.

On the other hand I recenty purchased a second hand MB for a relative. It has the high end Comand system in it that instead of a USB port has a pcmcia slot for user mp3 audio. I purchased an adaptor that holds an SD card from a vendor in Shenzhen with an MB logo on it that works perfectly for a pittance with free postage.

Widely available on eBay so I guess MB are cool with that also.

As noted above I think many manufacturer's who get stuff made in China are cool with the factory making a bit on the side given they get stuff made for $10 a piece that they sell through their channel for $200. Lets not even speculate on what Apple pay for each iPhone or iPad made in China.

But for low volume manufacturer's like those in the MI industry it sucks if the "third shift" gets more than 10% of their market.


MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P
"Music is a journey. We are all at a different stage in that journey." James Morrison, Australian trumpet legend
Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: Markay] #2981243
03/22/19 01:28 PM
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I never knew there was such a thing as "third shift". Is it possible these near identical knock offs get mixed with the real deal? What happens to serial numbers when support is needed?

Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: Sam CA] #2981252
03/22/19 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sam CA
I never knew there was such a thing as "third shift". Is it possible these near identical knock offs get mixed with the real deal? What happens to serial numbers when support is needed?


an 800 voice message to nowhere wink

Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: Sam CA] #2981255
03/22/19 02:24 PM
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There's also the issue of US companies wanting to do business in China. The knockoffs of our product do not make it into the US because of patent infringement, but it's not enforced in China. So to be competitive in that market, we have manufacturing in China making a product that is not available outside of Asia, that is a lower quality product made as low cost as possible, just to do business in that market. Otherwise we couldn't be competitive there.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: J. Dan] #2981269
03/22/19 02:55 PM
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This is what killed the Disney trading pin trade. They moved production to China. Eventually a flood of not quite counterfeit pins flooded the market. In normal production, the molds used to forge pins are used until they begin to wear. At this point the molds are destroyed. In China, the molds go to "third shift" production. A flood of pins with reduced definition hit the market through Ebay and other channels. So many counterfeit pins of lower quality have hit the market that the market has collapsed. You can buy direct from Disney and know you have the real thing and high quality, but you can no longer trust what you get from traders. And what is the value of trading pins without being able to trade?

It is not surprising that this same process is creeping into other areas of manufacturing. I've been wondering if it will hit the Eurorack modular trade. To some extent the same thing is happening to Hot Wheels. Some cars called treasure hunts and super treasure hunts are made in limited quantities and are highly collectable. Now there is a problem with Malaysian factory workers making extra runs extra runs of these cars and selling them on Ebay and through other channels.

Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: RABid] #2981285
03/22/19 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: RABid
This is what killed the Disney trading pin trade. They moved production to China. Eventually a flood of not quite counterfeit pins flooded the market. In normal production, the molds used to forge pins are used until they begin to wear. At this point the molds are destroyed. In China, the molds go to "third shift" production. A flood of pins with reduced definition hit the market through Ebay and other channels. So many counterfeit pins of lower quality have hit the market that the market has collapsed. You can buy direct from Disney and know you have the real thing and high quality, but you can no longer trust what you get from traders. And what is the value of trading pins without being able to trade?

It is not surprising that this same process is creeping into other areas of manufacturing. I've been wondering if it will hit the Eurorack modular trade. To some extent the same thing is happening to Hot Wheels. Some cars called treasure hunts and super treasure hunts are made in limited quantities and are highly collectable. Now there is a problem with Malaysian factory workers making extra runs extra runs of these cars and selling them on Ebay and through other channels.


the 'copy cat ' phenomena has been epidemic on Amazon for 10 years.

For example, I have my own US based business and manufacture kitchen ware, lets say utensils, knives, spatulas etc etc.

Within 6 months, various chinese parties will copy my product closely plus steal the packaging concept. And they will market on Amazon, steal my listing work and reputation selling 50-80% cheaper.

Some will call this ' capitalism ' but it discourages small US businesses that emphasize quality consumer products.

Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: GregC] #2981354
03/22/19 08:10 PM
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Its hard to feel sorry for a big company that decided to offshore to increase profits. China costs less cause its the lawless wild west or more accurate wild east.

Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: Jr. Deluxe] #2981365
03/22/19 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jr. Deluxe
Its hard to feel sorry for a big company that decided to offshore to increase profits. China costs less cause its the lawless wild west or more accurate wild east.


It's not always to increase profits. You have to compete against Chinese manufacturers. Sometimes it's the only option in order to be competitive. Now if the world would come together to combat China's practices of theft of intellectual property, labor practices, currency manipulation, and things like flooding the market with sub-par steel (they literally do things like melt scrap zinc and other stuff into it), then maybe that would level the playing field a bit. But consumers like their cheap products.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: J. Dan] #2981382
03/22/19 11:26 PM
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Large US companies started going to other countries to get their products made decades ago. Not just China, but anywhere there is cheap Labor, no regulations, and no unions. Once the stream of US companies turned into a flood, the dam broke.

What we are faced with now is the fact that American Manufacturers went out of business and products that were once made in the USA do no exist here anymore.

A small start up company that I worked for about 10 years ago was looking for a clothing factory to make our products in the NE US that use to have hundreds of sewing factories. My bosses wanted to keep the manufacturing close to home so it could be controlled and quality control would be assured. The sad fact is there are no more sewing factories in the NE US anymore. Not only did foreign countries take the business because of the above issues I raised, sewing factory jobs were jobs that "Americans did not want".

Our only choice was to have products made in Asia, like it or not. Not all factories in Asia are run by people that are honest. After all the expense of going to China and finding a factory willing to do our work, we had to go through the Federal Government legal hoops of importing clothing from Asia and how much we were going to pay once it hit the docks on the west coast. It turned out to be an expensive mess. Small companies cannot sustain loses caused by poor quality clothing that had to be paid for before being shipped and could not be "repaired" once it arrived. The mess turned into a nightmare.

The above is one more nail in the coffin of the US Economy. At this point, the tooth paste is out of the tube. Good luck trying to fix what was broken decades ago.


Mike T.


Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1.
Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: GregC] #2981387
03/22/19 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: GregC
For example, I have my own US based business and manufacture kitchen ware, lets say utensils, knives, spatulas etc etc.

Within 6 months, various chinese parties will copy my product closely plus steal the packaging concept. And they will market on Amazon, steal my listing work and reputation selling 50-80% cheaper.

Some will call this ' capitalism ' but it discourages small US businesses that emphasize quality consumer products.



It is not just US companies v China involved in this. In fashion it is endemic. Within weeks of designer showing their new seasons collection in Paris, Zara will have their copy available at bargain basement price long before the designer has their ready to wear collection in the shops. These will be made in Spain for the higher priced items, low cost EU countries and Turkey and the cheapest ones in Bangladesh or China.

Here we have one major Hardware chain that has either bought up or priced out of business all the smaller hardware shops. All based on cheaper home brand products made in China.

Having eliminated the competition they have changed their product mix. For example their home brand pruning shears are identical in design and handle colour to the made in Germany original. You now have a choice of paying $20 for the MIC one or $80 for the made in Germany shears. I can guarantee they make more profit per sale on the German one. So choice between low cost and lower quality or paying a higher price for a quailty item has returned.

It is up to manufacturers of higher cost, better quality products to convince consumers of the benefits of buying a quality product.


MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P
"Music is a journey. We are all at a different stage in that journey." James Morrison, Australian trumpet legend
Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: Markay] #2981400
03/23/19 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted By: Markay

It is up to manufacturers of higher cost, better quality products to convince consumers of the benefits of buying a quality product.


A very hard sell - trust me, since I have spent most of my career in sales, typically selling the highest cost product on the market......though Industrial, not consumer. We still command a premium, but it still erodes price because how much is the added quality worth? Our biggest competitor in the US is a European company who undercuts our price and their marketing message is basically that they are "good enough". So why pay more for us if they're good enough? Well customers will still pay a premium, but not a big one, so it erodes price and severely cuts margins to where it's difficult to manufacture in the US and make any profit. We still do some manufacturing in the US but most has moved to Mexico. We manufacture in other world areas to serve those markets. Luckily most US customers won't accept the Chinese products (plus they can't sell them here since the US enforces patent infringement). But as I mentioned, we have to manufacture in China to do business in that market. Only alternative is to just give up that business. We also have manufacturing in Eastern Europe, Russia, Europe, and other places - again, the idea being to manufacture in the world area you're selling to.

But again, we were the inventors of our technology and have always had patents that keep us ahead of our competitors, and we get a premium - but these cheap competitors limit how MUCH of a premium we can get.

I can only imagine how much more difficult it is in the consumer markets where people tend to only consider price.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Counterfeit proaudio gear seized in China! [Re: J. Dan] #2981406
03/23/19 05:24 AM
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The widespread availabilty of cheap products has certainly eroded the market share of those who innovate and provide a quality product. B2B is far more sophisticated market where down time has a cost and the total cost of ownership over the product lifecycle can be factored into the buying decision.

At the consumer level, here at least, Samsung, LG, Sony and Panasonic have been selling TV's in the $2k to $20k price range for a long time. Sure they have software that is cutting edge. Under $1k though the Chinese sourced TV's seem to keep selling. So the high end manufacturers seem to have developed a way of convincing plenty of people, including me, that they get value from spending 2 to 4 times more on a product of perceived higher quality.

To get back closer to the OP Behringer have been successful in capturing a market for low cost gear. But the quality higher priced niche products similarly survive, they just don't have the market to themselves any longer.


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"Music is a journey. We are all at a different stage in that journey." James Morrison, Australian trumpet legend

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