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#2980401 - 03/17/19 12:12 AM I can name that tune in... no I can't
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Stevie Wonder tune, another gem, slower tempo, but not a ballad.
It has a fairly unique first two chords

Say in key of Eb

Eb first chord: Melody starts on a descending Eb triad

Eb Eb Bb G lower Eb then up a seventh to Db
On the Db Stevie Uses a brilliant A7 ( not unknown ) but with E in the bass.

I can't think of another song with those two opening chords
Eb / / / A7/E / / / Fm

It is on tip of my ears tongue.
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#2980418 - 03/17/19 04:32 AM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: I-missRichardTee]
retrokeys Offline
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"Joy Inside My Tears?" Perhaps?

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#2980419 - 03/17/19 04:48 AM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Manolios Offline
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LoveĎs in need of love today... my guess. Truly a gem..

I think C7b9/E looks better than A7/E. Still the same notes though wink


Edited by Manolios (03/17/19 04:53 AM)

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#2980423 - 03/17/19 06:03 AM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: Manolios]
BbAltered Offline
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Not unusual at all: think Eb - C - Fm - Bb (I - VI - ii - V)

In the song, the C chord is played as b9, with E in the bass - making it look like A7/E. I like to play it starting with Eb7 (Eb-g-Bb-Db), and then move the Eb to E while keeping the other notes the same to make the C7b9/E

(But I cannot off the top of my head tell you the name of the tune.)
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#2980433 - 03/17/19 07:51 AM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: BbAltered]
o0Ampy0o Offline
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I would just go through the alphabet and eliminate the obvious. There can't be more than a few thousand Stevie Wonder songs, right? Enjoy your weekend.

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#2980437 - 03/17/19 08:28 AM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: o0Ampy0o]
drawback Offline
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Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
I would just go through the alphabet and eliminate the obvious. There can't be more than a few thousand Stevie Wonder songs, right? Enjoy your weekend.


Or eliminate the ones not in Eb, which would leave a mere few hundred.

What is a weekend?
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#2980441 - 03/17/19 09:13 AM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: drawback]
mate stubb Offline
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#2980444 - 03/17/19 09:44 AM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: mate stubb]
Jazz+ Offline
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.
"Another Star" by Stevie Wonder


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#2980446 - 03/17/19 09:55 AM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: mate stubb]
misterdregs Offline
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Originally Posted By: mate stubb


Found the 40+ year old sheet music book. It has the verse as:

Eb Edim (really a dim7 though) Fm7 Bb13

Fm7 Bb13 [Abmaj7 Gm7] [Fm7 Bb13]
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#2980457 - 03/17/19 11:36 AM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: misterdregs]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: misterdregs
Originally Posted By: mate stubb


Found the 40+ year old sheet music book. It has the verse as:

Eb Edim (really a dim7 though) Fm7 Bb13

Fm7 Bb13 [Abmaj7 Gm7] [Fm7 Bb13]


Well thanks to those who nailed this tune.

I was wrong about A7/E on relistening. I hear no A in the voicing... I think it is implied, but is not played.
But there is no way that is a C7 b9 either

I never would have guessed E dim was closest.. but even that is slightly off

On listening ( and there are a few bad asses here, with laser hearing , I would like to hear from: Bern**** I can't summon his handle)
I hear only 3 notes

E is lowest note, G and Db
That is not an E dim! I am not sure what precise name fits. One of you theory experts?

E G Db is same as E G C# which is why I hear 2nd inversion of A7

This is where genius lives.. Stevie left the A natural AND the predictable Bb, out of the chord... at least that is what these ears/ brain are summing.
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#2980458 - 03/17/19 11:37 AM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: Jazz+]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
.
"Another Star" by Stevie Wonder




SO Jazz+, what is up with Another Gene Harris, who is a Star, I admit? lol
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#2980459 - 03/17/19 11:49 AM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Manolios Offline
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If it sounds like a duck, looks like a duck , well...itˋs a C7b9 or E dim7 ... LOL Let your Ąlaser hearing Ą decide something else, but this is just common music theory mate. Peace out.
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#2980461 - 03/17/19 12:10 PM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: Manolios]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Manolios
If it sounds like a duck, looks like a duck , well...itˋs a C7b9 or E dim7 ... LOL Let your Ąlaser hearing Ą decide something else, but this is just common music theory mate. Peace out.


I am spending a bit of time on the two chords Eb and E roots.
And I am learning more details, that supercede theory. Theory is a trusty guide, that I am familiar with.. but a composer of Stevie Wonders magnitude is never hampered by theoretical knowledge.

I am hearing E G Db , and a Bb absolutely harms the charm of the sound, of E G Db.
An A almost works, it comes close... but so far I can't voice lead the A properly into the early suggested progression of Eb to A7/E .
So for now, for me, it is only Eb, E G Db
The name of diminished structures like this have always been a pita.
Technically I am guessing it is a second inversion of a C# or Db dim triad.

Theory is only going to help you to a certain point, after that the ear rules.
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#2980462 - 03/17/19 12:10 PM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: Manolios]
Morizzle Offline
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There's definitely an "A" in the second chord, and it's part of the E diminished scale, so it would make sense from a music theory view point.
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#2980463 - 03/17/19 12:13 PM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: Morizzle]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morizzle
There's definitely an "A" in the second chord.


Can you so to speak, SATB it?
Can you account for which voice in the Eb chord travels to the A??

Thank you, I can hear how an A works, but was not able to voice lead it, in the few minutes I have spent.

Do you hear what I hear, that a Bb ruins the effect in the second chord?!

edit
Morizzle The obvious voice leading is Bb down to A ,
I think maybe the first time, it could just be three notes, E G C#
But the second time, it may well be what I originally heard, the full E G A C#
Thank you again.


Edited by I-missRichardTee (03/17/19 12:19 PM)
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#2980465 - 03/17/19 12:23 PM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Josh Paxton Offline
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
Do you hear what I hear, that a Bb ruins the effect in the second chord?!


Yes. It's an A7/E. It serves the same function as an Eį or C7(b9)/E, but Stevie knows those chords too, and didn't play them there.

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#2980466 - 03/17/19 12:24 PM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: I-missRichardTee]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Morizzle quote:
"and it's part of the E diminished scale, so it would make sense from a music theory view point."

I think this point you make is true,, but theory like that, can make for laziness in composition.
Just because of a theory on the rascal like diminished scale or harmony, this does not obligate the composer to be forced to choose any of the notes in a chord or scale.

It is perfectly valid to choose one note, or two notes, or three.
Dependence on theory and chord symbols, invites sloppiness, or lack of detail.
I am saying this for the sake of those more intermediate or beginner musicians.
I usually write for the sake of others.. as a counterpoint to prevailing theory.
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#2980467 - 03/17/19 12:35 PM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: Josh Paxton]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Josh Paxton
Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
Do you hear what I hear, that a Bb ruins the effect in the second chord?!


Yes. It's an A7/E. It serves the same function as an Eį or C7(b9)/E, but Stevie knows those chords too, and didn't play them there.



Thank you Sir.

I have long thought about and read about ( Hindemith and Schoenberg, plus the usual jazz theory people ) the diminished chord, or diminished series, as some call it.

Just for fun, would you mind taking a non dogmatic walk down this controversial ( or maybe not controversial for you ) topic?

One idea about "diminished world" is a "diminished series".. in this case E dim C#dim G dim and Bb dim are all suppoedly on equal footing.
As far as function... C7 ( again, there IS NO C in this chord ) does function as dominant for Fminor ( the successor to E dim )
But just for fun, to see how far this can go..
Could A7 not be a natural predessor to Ab major, with Ab ( Subdominant ) and an equally strong contender in functional harmony?
We hear so much about ii V today... but did we forget IV V?
So instead of Fm to Bb
we could have Ab to Bb
to arrive at the Ab , we have the A7!
I am not being dogmatic... my mind is open on theory of harmony esp where diminished is involved!


Edited by I-missRichardTee (03/17/19 12:40 PM)
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#2980468 - 03/17/19 12:38 PM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Manolios Offline
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#2980469 - 03/17/19 12:39 PM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: I-missRichardTee]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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The chord progression is
Eb E dim Fm Bb Fm Bb Ab /G /F Bb roughly .
then it repeats

My question for "sharp eared" members
I am thinking I hear the A natural the second time... I am not sure, but I seem to hear it

Do you hear an A natural the first time... the first time that diminshed chord shows up?


Edited by I-missRichardTee (03/17/19 12:45 PM)
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#2980470 - 03/17/19 12:46 PM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: Manolios]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Manolios


Manolios it is not the same notes, as you mentioned. C7 b9 is not the same as A7/E

Don't let a combo of shortcuts, aka chord symbols, and theories of music, together muddy the water of better understanding of what you hear.

I guess according to theory mentioned in this thread
we have these options ( leaving enharmonic spelling out )
C C# Eb E F# G A Bb
E dim, G dim, C# dim, Bb dim
A7 C7 Eb7 Gb7
A7 b9 C7 b9 Eb7 b9 Bb 7 b9
and of course
Bb dim 7 C# dim 7 E dim 7 G dim 7

I listed them out to illustrate the absurdity , where theories start to get too far from reality of the sounds.
Theory is one thing, reality of a composers creation is quite another.
Theory has never made an average talent, into a prodigious composer, I doubt it anyway.
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#2980480 - 03/17/19 01:55 PM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: retrokeys]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: retrokeys
"Joy Inside My Tears?" Perhaps?



Thank you, No, but interesting you chose E to F dim song, That is a song I need to look at.
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#2980484 - 03/17/19 02:39 PM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Mjazz Offline
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Transcribe! hears an A-natural in there:

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#2980487 - 03/17/19 02:50 PM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: Mjazz]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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YEAAAAAAA thank you for confirming my first instinct, as the A7/E

But Mjazz, the very first time Stevie uses that progression... I believe prior to more instruments are added.. is the A present then, as well?

Also... does transcribe pickup other notes, such as Bb, Eb, C!! ?

Thanks so much.
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#2980492 - 03/17/19 03:48 PM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Mjazz Offline
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
the very first time Stevie uses that progression... I believe prior to more instruments are added.. is the A present then, as well?.

The screenshot shows the very first time.

Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
Also... does transcribe pickup other notes ...

Yes, as shown by peaks above notes on the keyboard. (However, B4 and C#5 are probably just overtones. Also E4.)

Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
... such as Bb, Eb, C!! ?

Not detected in this sample. Just the peaks as shown.
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#2980503 - 03/17/19 04:54 PM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: Mjazz]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mjazz
Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
the very first time Stevie uses that progression... I believe prior to more instruments are added.. is the A present then, as well?.

The screenshot shows the very first time.

Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
Also... does transcribe pickup other notes ...

Yes, as shown by peaks above notes on the keyboard. (However, B4 and C#5 are probably just overtones. Also E4.)

Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
... such as Bb, Eb, C!! ?

Not detected in this sample. Just the peaks as shown.


Thank you for verifications. Thanks to your effort, I tried the Analysis feature on my seldom used Transcribe app... and same results as you reported,

We have a case here of trying to fit theories in the realm of "fact". Transcribe has established as fact, not opinion, that A7 is the second chord.

With the following constellation of theory ideas:
1. more modern theory saying something like: a "Diminished series", where 4 diminished scales are viewed as interchangeable.. and by extension C7 and A7 are interchangeable!!
2. A suggested standard interpretation of the harmony as Eb C7 Fm, according to older tradition
3. Classic theory also saying ii and IV are interchangeable .

We can mix all of the above together and come up with
A7 ( fact ) to Ab -- which leads to A7/E to Fm.... instead of C7 to Fm

I love this stuff, seems like I am alone in this fascination.. but someone will appreciate the implications.

What the best composers tease us with, could be called multiple ambiguous implications, where more than one possibility seems about to occur.. and then doesn't, or maybe does later in the piece.
This is the value of studying theory and practices of masters like W Shorter Bill Evans Hancock, Wagner, Chopin. They are so adept with eg a diminished sound, that they can angle it in multiple directions, key centers, in a second.
The diminished chord/scale / dominant flat nine, world, is a perfect world to try these experiments in harmonic ambiguity.
Thank you Stevie Wonder for opening my ears to what Herbie Hancock calls "Possibilities".
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#2980518 - 03/17/19 08:26 PM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Mjazz Offline
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
Transcribe has established as fact, not opinion, that A7 is the second chord.

Well, from a player's standpoint, you can definitely call that chord A7/E and you're good to go.

From a functional-harmony standpoint, though, the simplest explanation is that it's just an Edim7 voiced with a chromatic alteration of one note: Bb is dropped a semitone to A-nat. Gives it a nice unusual buzz, but especially with that strong conventional root motion underneath, 1-#1-2, Eb-E-F, it doesn't change the function.

My 0.02 worth.
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#2980533 - 03/18/19 04:42 AM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: Mjazz]
misterdregs Offline
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All I can say is that there are worse tunes to have stuck in my head, which of course this one has been for days now.
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#2980556 - 03/18/19 08:27 AM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: misterdregs]
MathOfInsects Offline
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I've played that song a bunch. I agree that the chord is voiced as (essentially) A7/E, but it's also worth noting that the "unplayed B-note" in question is a Bb rather than a B natural. So Mjazz is completely on-point: it's most easily notated as A7/E, but harmonically it is an altered dim chord on that E.
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#2980574 - 03/18/19 10:19 AM Re: I can name that tune in... no I can't [Re: MathOfInsects]
Josh Paxton Offline
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So our final answer is that it has the same notes as an A7/E, but it's more intuitive and functional to call it either an Edim7(add4)(no5), or else a C13(b9)(no1)(no7)/E. Got it.

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