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#2979633 - 03/10/19 10:03 PM Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson
Shutoku Offline
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Loc: BC Canada
As a big fan of UK, this makes me very sad.

New York Post, -John Wetton was ripped off by bandmate

Johnwetton.com

I'll reserve my opinion until I hear both sides of the story, but the whole thing makes me sad.


Edited by Shutoku (03/10/19 10:04 PM)
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#2979636 - 03/10/19 11:17 PM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: Shutoku]
Jr. Deluxe Offline
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#2979655 - 03/11/19 05:33 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: Jr. Deluxe]
MorayM Offline
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From what I've heard about EJ from people who've worked with him, this does not surprise me.
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#2979657 - 03/11/19 05:47 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: MorayM]
jimkost2002 Offline
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Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Really sad but par for the course in this biz. As one employer of mine said: “Calling certain people in our biz sharkd is an insult to the latter”
My gut leans toward Wetton and the estate in this one, if itis is as described, it’s the worst kind of betrayal.


Edited by jimkost2002 (03/11/19 06:08 AM)
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#2979666 - 03/11/19 07:19 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: MorayM]
GregC Offline
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Originally Posted By: MorayM
From what I've heard about EJ from people who've worked with him, this does not surprise me.


since there is an attorney involved, I think its fair to listen to both sides. Attorneys can make and do make all types of 'assertions' for their client .

I posted an interview with EJ last year. If someone is good at search on KC, they will find it.

In the interview with EJ, he discusses the UKZ project and what he experienced with the tour. It won't be a big surprise. To get more of the story, its useful to read what EJ says
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#2979682 - 03/11/19 09:44 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: GregC]
jimkost2002 Offline
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Originally Posted By: GregC
Originally Posted By: MorayM
From what I've heard about EJ from people who've worked with him, this does not surprise me.


since there is an attorney involved, I think its fair to listen to both sides. Attorneys can make and do make all types of 'assertions' for their client .

I posted an interview with EJ last year. If someone is good at search on KC, they will find it.

In the interview with EJ, he discusses the UKZ project and what he experienced with the tour. It won't be a big surprise. To get more of the story, its useful to read what EJ says


It’s simple. Pay your people. Pay them on time. End of story.
Unless it’s a seperate booking and management agency, there’s no equivocation or excuse.
Accountability is job one of a bandleader.
Like the famous sign on Harry Truman’s desk “The buck stops here”
I’ve been lucky enough to have most of my tour and gig money mishaps resolved fairly quickly and equitably.
I’ve known too many colleagues in similar situations described above.
Just because you like someones work, doesnt mean you equivocate for them.
Any of us who do this for a living can smell bs and scumbaggery a mile away.
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#2979684 - 03/11/19 09:55 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: jimkost2002]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
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Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
Originally Posted By: GregC
Originally Posted By: MorayM
From what I've heard about EJ from people who've worked with him, this does not surprise me.


since there is an attorney involved, I think its fair to listen to both sides. Attorneys can make and do make all types of 'assertions' for their client .

I posted an interview with EJ last year. If someone is good at search on KC, they will find it.

In the interview with EJ, he discusses the UKZ project and what he experienced with the tour. It won't be a big surprise. To get more of the story, its useful to read what EJ says


It’s simple. Pay your people. Pay them on time. End of story.
Unless it’s a seperate booking and management agency, there’s no equivocation or excuse.
Accountability is job one of a bandleader.
Like the famous sign on Harry Truman’s desk “The buck stops here”
I’ve been lucky enough to have most of my tour and gig money mishaps resolved fairly quickly and equitably.
I’ve known too many colleagues in similar situations described above.
Just because you like someones work, doesnt mean you equivocate for them.
Any of us who do this for a living can smell bs and scumbaggery a mile away.


Devils in the details.
I think more facts are needed. This is a neutral position.
Suits are filed all the time, then there are changes.

I don't believe in being the judge and jury and making a fast conviction.

To each his own.
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#2979699 - 03/11/19 12:17 PM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: GregC]
Tonysounds Offline
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Listen, you need to wait for the story to happen.

Its not John who filed, is it. (Of course not, he's gone.) IF there is a cause of action, is it because Jobson has not been paid for those dates either? Is he supposed to forward out of pocket? I'm guessing (*before you say OF COURSE!*) that being long time DIY guy, Jobson had written enough contracts to stipulate that 'you get paid when I get paid' since everything he does is on a DIY/shoe string budget.

Or he might turn out to be a villain, but I'm doubting it.
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#2979718 - 03/11/19 03:04 PM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: GregC]
Marzzz Offline
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Originally Posted By: GregC
I posted an interview with EJ last year.
Eddie Jobson/UKZ

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#2979767 - 03/11/19 08:48 PM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: Marzzz]
Shutoku Offline
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Loc: BC Canada
Here is Jobson’s response on the Facebook page dedicated to him:

“I have always prided myself on being honest and ethical in both my personal life and business practices, I have treated everyone as fairly and generously as possible throughout my life and career. So I am shocked, saddened and outraged that John Wetton’s managers have stooped so low as to engage in an undeserved character assassination and a dishonest misrepresentation regarding my treatment of John. Nothing could be further from the truth, as they present it. However, I am actually relieved that these specious claims have been asserted in the form of a detailed lawsuit so that the courts can determine the erroneousness of their assertions and throw out the entire case. I will say more about this outrage when the case is resolved.” - EJ
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#2979772 - 03/11/19 10:45 PM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: Shutoku]
Seymour Cash Offline
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Registered: 04/11/18
Posts: 11
LOL Who cares? Listen to, and enjoy the music. Do you really want to know the ethical specifics of every artist whose works that you enjoy? Ever watch a Woody Allen film? LOL

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#2979776 - 03/11/19 11:10 PM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: Seymour Cash]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/15/18
Posts: 63
The truth is the music man. puff ....and you will never hear it anywhere else.

This is the standard, "We are looking forward to our day in court."

To be followed with "We cannot discuss the details of the settlement however we are happy with the results." coming from both sides because it is required in order to collect and stop further court action.

Quote:
Jobson’s response: “....I am actually relieved that these specious claims have been asserted in the form of a detailed lawsuit..... - EJ

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#2979798 - 03/12/19 05:35 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: Tonysounds]
jimkost2002 Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 1204
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: Tonysounds
Listen, you need to wait for the story to happen.

Its not John who filed, is it. (Of course not, he's gone.) IF there is a cause of action, is it because Jobson has not been paid for those dates either? Is he supposed to forward out of pocket? I'm guessing (*before you say OF COURSE!*) that being long time DIY guy, Jobson had written enough contracts to stipulate that 'you get paid when I get paid' since everything he does is on a DIY/shoe string budget.

Or he might turn out to be a villain, but I'm doubting it.


I don’t know, Tony. Having been on more Mid-high budget indy tours than I can count, I’ve always heard, “You get paid when we do, but we will take care of you if something goes south”
So, yes, it’s always the leader’s job to pay his/her people no matter what. Even if that is a 50ish-60 percent out of the leader’s pocket.
If the numbers detailed on John Wetton’s site are to be believed, John was out $4100 per gig og an 11 gig tour. The other members probably less so according to marquee value.
Still, all members came back ass out, apparently.
Still, it’s the leader’s job to take care of his people.
Full stop.

Plus, John might not have filed because he was battling cancer.
He delayed treatment to go on this tour.
Again, another fact that doesn’t bode well for the other side’s veracity.
If a colleague and musical partner of some 30 years goes on tour with you, delaying vital treatment for a life threatening illness, you take care of them in some way to the best of your means,

As wriiten on johnwettondotcom:

“All the time, money and energy Eddie Jobson has put into lawyers could have been used for a gesture of good faith to John Wetton and his beneficiaries. “
Not to mention the other 2 band members.

And, that, my friends, rings truest among this morass.

I hope to be proven wrong, but I gotta speak truth.

End of story.


Edited by jimkost2002 (03/12/19 06:08 AM)
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#2979875 - 03/12/19 01:44 PM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: jimkost2002]
timwat Offline
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"The first to state his case seems right, until another comes and examines him." - Proverbs 18:17

A longstanding principle would be to withhold reaching conclusions until both sides of the story are published. A popular permutation of this in marriage counseling goes something like, "There's her side, his side, and the third side...the truth."

Many of us prog heads grew up enjoying both Wetton's and Jobson's contributions to the prog canon - sad to see this as well.

FWIW (the reader can decide), Alex Machacek offered up this comment:

"Usually I don't talk about any business dealings in public but I feel I have to make an exception in this case. I have been working with Eddie since 2007 and he ALWAYS paid me. And besides paying me he often went the extra mile and got me upgrades on flights, treated me to dinner/drinks and arranged great accommodations on tour. (none of which are to be taken for granted) Honestly, any form of character assassination is wildly inappropriate and way out of line when it comes to Eddie Jobson."

I'll patiently await an outcome to this unfortunate (now public) matter, and hope for the best.
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#2979877 - 03/12/19 03:36 PM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: jimkost2002]
o0Ampy0o Offline
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Registered: 01/15/18
Posts: 63
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
... I gotta speak truth....
Is this you speaking now? Hearsay, copy/pasted quotation and opinion may contain some of the truth but how would you determine the truth?

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#2979914 - 03/13/19 03:13 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: o0Ampy0o]
jimkost2002 Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
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Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
... I gotta speak truth....
Is this you speaking now? Hearsay, copy/pasted quotation and opinion may contain some of the truth but how would you determine the truth?


If you read my post fully, you will see that I broke the existing data down from the standpoint of a touring professional’s experience coupled with street sense.

If you wanna call someone getting paid ZERO DOLLARS (euros) for a full tour heresay, go right ahead.

I also said, from the standpoint of a professional, the case on the Wetton Estate side sounds most plausible.

I also said I hope I’m wrong because I am a fan of UK and Jobson’s work, too, but I’m not gonna let my fandom intrude upon my logical assesments either.

As far as Alex’s statement goes, I don’t question his experience one bit, but I know it’s easy to be generous when times are good, but it’s a real sign of character to be fair and honest when times are not so good.

To answer your question, truth is determined by a person’s ethical compass. Mine puts integrity first, last and always.


Edited by jimkost2002 (03/13/19 03:24 AM)
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#2979915 - 03/13/19 03:17 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: timwat]
jimkost2002 Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 1204
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: timwat
"The first to state his case seems right, until another comes and examines him." - Proverbs 18:17

A longstanding principle would be to withhold reaching conclusions until both sides of the story are published. A popular permutation of this in marriage counseling goes something like, "There's her side, his side, and the third side...the truth."

Many of us prog heads grew up enjoying both Wetton's and Jobson's contributions to the prog canon - sad to see this as well.

FWIW (the reader can decide), Alex Machacek offered up this comment:

"Usually I don't talk about any business dealings in public but I feel I have to make an exception in this case. I have been working with Eddie since 2007 and he ALWAYS paid me. And besides paying me he often went the extra mile and got me upgrades on flights, treated me to dinner/drinks and arranged great accommodations on tour. (none of which are to be taken for granted) Honestly, any form of character assassination is wildly inappropriate and way out of line when it comes to Eddie Jobson."

I'll patiently await an outcome to this unfortunate (now public) matter, and hope for the best.


Tim, I hope you are right as well....

But, if we are gonna listen to all sides, we have to acknowledge the bad as well as the good!


Edited by jimkost2002 (03/13/19 03:21 AM)
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#2979968 - 03/13/19 11:39 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: jimkost2002]
Tonysounds Offline
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Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
... I gotta speak truth....
Is this you speaking now? Hearsay, copy/pasted quotation and opinion may contain some of the truth but how would you determine the truth?


If you read my post fully, you will see that I broke the existing data down from the standpoint of a touring professional’s experience coupled with street sense.

If you wanna call someone getting paid ZERO DOLLARS (euros) for a full tour heresay, go right ahead.

I also said, from the standpoint of a professional, the case on the Wetton Estate side sounds most plausible.

I also said I hope I’m wrong because I am a fan of UK and Jobson’s work, too, but I’m not gonna let my fandom intrude upon my logical assesments either.

As far as Alex’s statement goes, I don’t question his experience one bit, but I know it’s easy to be generous when times are good, but it’s a real sign of character to be fair and honest when times are not so good.

To answer your question, truth is determined by a person’s ethical compass. Mine puts integrity first, last and always.
\


Not to flame the fans, but none of this ^^^ has any bearing. I have my own experiences to draw from, but since they're irrelevant, I left them out.

Eddie isn't some rock an roll punk. He survived a number of careers in the industry as a sideman, some he failed at before launch (Yes), but his integrity seemed to be at the root of all his motivations. He has had a remarkable award winning career in the jingle industry, so I'm guessing he knows more than a bit about making sure he fulfills his end of the bargain. As this is the first allegation of this kind against him in a 50 year career, I feel compelled to wait and see.

As for John's health, John battled a lot before the cancer, including a heart attack. I believe Eddie was part of that recovery, at least careerwise.

Or he could be a villain. Gotta wait and see.
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#2980004 - 03/13/19 03:12 PM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: jimkost2002]
o0Ampy0o Offline
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Registered: 01/15/18
Posts: 63
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
To answer your question, truth is determined by a person’s ethical compass. Mine puts integrity first, last and always.

False. This may establish one’s belief but in no way does it determine truth.

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#2980052 - 03/14/19 03:00 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: o0Ampy0o]
jimkost2002 Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 1204
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
To answer your question, truth is determined by a person’s ethical compass. Mine puts integrity first, last and always.

False. This may establish one’s belief but in no way does it determine truth.


This is getting far afield, but I’m sorry to tell you youre dead wrong. What you are espousing is moral relativism ie “whatever is right for YOU is right.” Dead wrong.
My moral compass is soley determined by this:
Whatever causes harm to another’s soverign being is wrong.
End of story.
Morality and integrity are not subject to a sliding scale.


Edited by jimkost2002 (03/14/19 03:03 AM)
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#2980085 - 03/14/19 08:52 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: jimkost2002]
Tonysounds Offline
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So..... what does your moral compass say to you about impugning someone's reputation based on a lawsuit filed by a NON party (for the purposes of this discussion, only Eddie and John were parties)?

Your stated moral compass (Whatever causes harm to another’s soverign being is wrong.) would seem to indicate that in theory your diatribe and conviction of Eddie before the facts are known is in fact wrong.

SO if there's no sliding scale, is there where you recant??

I love philosophy.
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#2980087 - 03/14/19 09:06 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: jimkost2002]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: jimkost2002

Whatever causes harm to another’s soverign being is wrong.
End of story.
Morality and integrity are not subject to a sliding scale.

Some people are clearly "worse" than other people, even if none are perfect... which sounds like a sliding scale to me. There are also complications about agreeing on what is "harm", and situations where it is impossible to avoid harm, though you may be able to choose what you believe to be the lesser harm, where again, people may differ. The fact that what's right and wrong can't be summed up in nine words is why there are philosophy courses. ;-) Are you familiar with a TV series "The Good Place"? Good show. The current storyline basically revolves around the fact that it is getting harder and harder to be a good person, because it seems that every decision we make, no matter how well intentioned, ends up having some kind of negative consequence for someone else. This is getting way OT, and really can't even be discussed here in any depth anyway because, by its nature, a conversation on this topic will almost certainly venture into religion and/or politics. But it's a good show. Gets a little weak in the second season, but comes back.
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#2980089 - 03/14/19 09:11 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: Tonysounds]
Rod S Offline
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A friend of mine has an interesting saying: In an argument, there are three truths, my truth, your truth, and THE truth. Without getting into the semantics of the word truth (specially since in Portuguese the word in colloquial use looses some of the meaning), is that there's always 3 sides. Most often no one is fully right nor fully wrong. I aim to be humble and listen, even if I fail at times.
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#2980142 - 03/14/19 04:00 PM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: Tonysounds]
jimkost2002 Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 1204
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: Tonysounds
So..... what does your moral compass say to you about impugning someone's reputation based on a lawsuit filed by a NON party (for the purposes of this discussion, only Eddie and John were parties)?

Your stated moral compass (Whatever causes harm to another’s soverign being is wrong.) would seem to indicate that in theory your diatribe and conviction of Eddie before the facts are known is in fact wrong.

SO if there's no sliding scale, is there where you recant??

I love philosophy.


My assesment of this situation is simply that my BS detector went off the charts when I heard about this lawsuit.
If you do gigs, recordings, tours, etc, you get paid, simple as that.
In NO other profession but the arts, do people think they can not pay somebody!
.... In this case I’m not as much equating “people” with EJ as much as I am saying the buck stops with the bandleader. If the promoter doesn’t pay it becomes the bandleader’s respoonsibilty that sidemen don’t go home empty handed..

Again, in ALL my posts on this subject I’ve said “ I hope I’m wrong” or “I hope I’m proven wrong”!

But another claim on the Wetton site is that Eddie stopped responding to communication with John and his management.

That’s NOT a good sign.
It would appear that the case of Wetton estate is most plausible at this point.
If new evidence comes to light showing otherwise, I’m happy to accept it!

As to your opening question, the estate and management are speaking for John, since he is not here to speak for himself.
This is a posthumous recovery case (duh) and when recovery is involved, advocates are used.


Edited by jimkost2002 (03/14/19 04:15 PM)
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#2980166 - 03/14/19 08:23 PM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: jimkost2002]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/15/18
Posts: 63
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
...you are espousing is moral relativism ie “whatever is right for YOU is right.”...

Nope. I pointed to your moral relativism, funny you should think of it.

Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
...My assesment of this situation is simply that my BS detector went off the charts when I heard about this lawsuit....

Truth determined by jimost2002's "BS detector" .....uh huh.

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#2980186 - 03/15/19 03:26 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: o0Ampy0o]
jimkost2002 Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 1204
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
...you are espousing is moral relativism ie “whatever is right for YOU is right.”...

Nope. I pointed to your moral relativism, funny you should think of it.

Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
...My assesment of this situation is simply that my BS detector went off the charts when I heard about this lawsuit....

Truth determined by jimost2002's "BS detector" .....uh huh.


Exactly how do YOU define “moral relativism”?
Let’s hear it....I havent seen YOUR understanding of the definition stated here. I’ve clearly stated my understanding here.
Also, I’ve said I’m comparing what’s documented in this lawsuit so far against my own experiences and that of trusted colleagues in a 32 year career as a gigging professional musician.
For the umpteenth time, I’ve said I hope to be proven wrong as things shake out in this lawsuit.
It clearly sounds like you’re butthurt because I called one of your hero’s actions and motives into question on a forum.
Just for the record, I’ll call it like I see it and that rule applies to ANYBODY in my profession.
It helps to read EVERYTHING I’ve posted here in it’s proper context before you hit “submit”

A note to the forum moderators:

I truly hope my comments are within forum guidelines.
I truly am doing my best to keep it civil, but I do have to call out logical inconsistenties and flabby reasoning. I don’t suffer those things gladly, but I am mindful of the parametrs of public discourse.



Edited by jimkost2002 (03/15/19 07:34 AM)
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#2980202 - 03/15/19 05:55 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: jimkost2002]
jimkost2002 Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 1204
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
To those of you taking a neutral position on this subject:
Many of you guys have day jobs, right?
What would YOU do or how would YOU feel if you worked for x amount of weeks or months on a project (or at your regular job) and DIDNT GET PAID?
Would you be so quick to be neutral, egalitarian or to take the employer’s side?


Edited by jimkost2002 (03/15/19 05:58 AM)
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#2980205 - 03/15/19 06:40 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: jimkost2002]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 6222
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
To those of you taking a neutral position on this subject:
Many of you guys have day jobs, right?
What would YOU do or how would YOU feel if you worked for x amount of weeks or months on a project (or at your regular job) and DIDNT GET PAID?
Would you be so quick to be neutral, egalitarian or to take the employer’s side?


Sorry Jim, thats a faulty comparison . And most analogies, comparisons tend to be apples/oranges.

This kind of business/legal issue tends to be incomplete in the world of public opinion.
It appears we are only seeing the first volley in court.

More details will eventually come out. Or the 2 parties will settle confidentially out of court. Or the estate might prevail. Hard to predict.

This is why many are suggesting a wait and see attitude. You are entitled to your opinion, no argument on that.
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#2980216 - 03/15/19 07:47 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: GregC]
jimkost2002 Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
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Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: GregC
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
To those of you taking a neutral position on this subject:
Many of you guys have day jobs, right?
What would YOU do or how would YOU feel if you worked for x amount of weeks or months on a project (or at your regular job) and DIDNT GET PAID?
Would you be so quick to be neutral, egalitarian or to take the employer’s side?


Sorry Jim, thats a faulty comparison . And most analogies, comparisons tend to be apples/oranges.

This kind of business/legal issue tends to be incomplete in the world of public opinion.
It appears we are only seeing the first volley in court.

More details will eventually come out. Or the 2 parties will settle confidentially out of court. Or the estate might prevail. Hard to predict.

This is why many are suggesting a wait and see attitude. You are entitled to your opinion, no argument on that.


How EXACTLY is it a faulty comparison, Greg?
I’m sorry, but you cant just state its faulty and leave it at that.

An employer, whether it be a band leader or corporation, contracts an employee to perform services for said employer in exchange for an agreed upon compensation.
If the employee doesn’t get paid, the employer is in breach of said contract.
It’s simple.

By the way, I am NOT asking you to RELINQUISH your neutral position, but to examine your position in respect to how it might change if YOU were the party out 45k, plus royalty and merch residuals.

One more thing: I have consistently stated the position of the Wetton estate SOUNDS more plusible in light of my own decades long experience in this business and this fact seems to be lost here. I just call BS on it and wll continue to do so.


Edited by jimkost2002 (03/15/19 08:07 AM)
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#2980220 - 03/15/19 08:38 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: jimkost2002]
Rod S Offline
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Registered: 12/12/00
Posts: 3171
Loc: São Paulo, Brasil
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
To those of you taking a neutral position on this subject:
Many of you guys have day jobs, right?
What would YOU do or how would YOU feel if you worked for x amount of weeks or months on a project (or at your regular job) and DIDNT GET PAID?
Would you be so quick to be neutral, egalitarian or to take the employer’s side?


You're arguing the wrong point.

My neutral is based on the fact that I don't have the information to judge. Paraphrasing my earlier comment, there's John's estate version, EJ's version, and the truth lies somewhere in between. People outside the process are just throwing shit on the fan since they don't have enough information to judge.

Of course I want to get paid (and I always have), and I can guarantee I've always treated people fairly and gotten out of my way to make sure people get paid even if intermediates in a contracting process f**k up (happened several times).

I deal with multi million dollar contracts as part of my job (I could add about USD 5 Billion that we under my responsibility without much effort, with > 100.000 people involved ), and I've seen all extremes. People getting screwed and not being able to defend themselves, people being wrong and still trying to screw the other, people being right and still being screwed because of a judge's decision (very typical here - judges like to favor the little guys while me, representing the american multinational company get ruled over because I'm a big capitalist pig screwing over the poor guy who can't defend himself), and on and on and on and on....

Again, no one here, unless they are directly involved, and if they are, they should keep their mouths shut until it's resolved, know enough to say for sure who's right and who's wrong.
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#2980222 - 03/15/19 08:50 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: Rod S]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 6222
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: Rod S

I People getting screwed and not being able to defend themselves, people being wrong and still trying to screw the other, people being right and still being screwed because of a judge's decision (very typical here -

1) judges like to favor the little guys while me, representing the american multinational company get ruled over because I'm a big capitalist pig screwing over the poor guy who can't defend himself), and on and on and on and on....

Again, no one here, unless they are directly involved, and if they are, they should keep their mouths shut until it's resolved, know enough to say for sure who's right and who's wrong.


LOL. Its time for a diversion.

I am all for the little guy. Yes, even err on the side of protecting the little guy from the avarice and monied greed of big capitalist pigs.

We have to debate this further, some time. All in good fun wink
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#2980228 - 03/15/19 09:00 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: GregC]
Rod S Offline
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Registered: 12/12/00
Posts: 3171
Loc: São Paulo, Brasil
LOL - my loquacious nature gets the best of me and I talk to much and still miss key points.

Before I get misinterpreted, two points.
(1) Brazilian law is very dysfunctional. Europeans and Americans got berserk trying to do business here; so take comments in that light.
(2) Specific on point, brazilian law is dysfunctional not so much on the big guy (as in large corporations) and the little guy, but often the employer and the employee. The person may have a company that employs 10 people, and he still get screwed because the system tends the employee. This is a generally accepted fact and one of the reasons that drags us behind.
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#2980229 - 03/15/19 09:07 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: Rod S]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 6222
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: Rod S
LOL - my loquacious nature gets the best of me and I talk to much and still miss key points.

Before I get misinterpreted, two points.
(1) Brazilian law is very dysfunctional. Europeans and Americans got berserk trying to do business here; so take comments in that light.
(2) Specific on point, brazilian law is dysfunctional not so much on the big guy (as in large corporations) and the little guy, but often the employer and the employee. The person may have a company that employs 10 people, and he still get screwed because the system tends the employee. This is a generally accepted fact and one of the reasons that drags us behind.



Excellent, Rod. Context is everything.

IMO , there is no[or little] " one size fits all ".

I was a small business owner and would be fearful of Brazilian judicial ' bias ' or as you portrayed it. Thanks

And somewhat context related, California is an 'at will employer state'. Which favors
the large corps, who are well funded and have significant legal resources. IOW, I still
have boot prints on my lower back after working in the corporate world for a few decades here { prior to me starting my own small business].


Edited by GregC (03/15/19 09:12 AM)
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#2980232 - 03/15/19 09:28 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: jimkost2002]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 13390
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
To those of you taking a neutral position on this subject:
Many of you guys have day jobs, right?
What would YOU do or how would YOU feel if you worked for x amount of weeks or months on a project (or at your regular job) and DIDNT GET PAID?
Would you be so quick to be neutral, egalitarian or to take the employer’s side?

You are assuming that the statements put forth in the story are indisputable facts, and also that there are no other facts supporting a different perspective. For example, have you seen the contract? Do you know whether Wetton himself fulfilled all the stipulations in the contract? Even if Wetton did not get the amount he expected, do we know for a fact that he did not get anything at all? "We know it because it says so in the New York Post" is not really an acceptable answer, especially if you know the New York Post. The point is, every lawsuit sounds like the plaintiff should win, until you see the defense. A jury isn't supposed to make up its mind after hearing only half the case, no matter how persuasive it may seem so far.
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#2980233 - 03/15/19 09:50 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: AnotherScott]
jimkost2002 Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 1204
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
To those of you taking a neutral position on this subject:
Many of you guys have day jobs, right?
What would YOU do or how would YOU feel if you worked for x amount of weeks or months on a project (or at your regular job) and DIDNT GET PAID?
Would you be so quick to be neutral, egalitarian or to take the employer’s side?

You are assuming that the statements put forth in the story are indisputable facts, and also that there are no other facts supporting a different perspective. For example, have you seen the contract? Do you know whether Wetton himself fulfilled all the stipulations in the contract? Even if Wetton did not get the amount he expected, do we know for a fact that he did not get anything at all? "We know it because it says so in the New York Post" is not really an acceptable answer, especially if you know the New York Post. The point is, every lawsuit sounds like the plaintiff should win, until you see the defense. A jury isn't supposed to make up its mind after hearing only half the case, no matter how persuasive it may seem so far.


I’m not assuming ANYTHING from the NYPost, Scott. As a longtime NYC resident, I know it’s garbage.
I’m basing my position thus far on what’s come out from the Wetton Estate.
There have been enough spurious lawsuits that it wouldn’t get this far if the claims didn’t have some merit or if the plantiffs hadnt failed @ other recourses.

C’mon now, really? You’re gonna play it like that? Unless John ghosted the gigs or played the in a sub par manner (doubt it) those speculations are ridiculous from the standpoint of anyone who’s been in this business longer than a year!
I’m totally willing to hear a devils advocate position, but seriously?
And, I am not on the jury, I’m offering my professional perspective only.
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#2980234 - 03/15/19 11:13 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: jimkost2002]
Tonysounds Offline
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Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 8823
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002

I’m basing my position thus far on what’s come out from the Wetton Estate.



And that's why you're Vehemently denying anyone should be neutral.

It aint over. Not close. Sorry if our NON rush to judgment affects your....what did you call us, butt hurt??.....sense of INTEGRITY.

WHEN did our forum turn into facebook exactly?
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#2980257 - 03/15/19 02:03 PM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: Tonysounds]
jimkost2002 Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 1204
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: Tonysounds
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002

I’m basing my position thus far on what’s come out from the Wetton Estate.



And that's why you're Vehemently denying anyone should be neutral.

It aint over. Not close. Sorry if our NON rush to judgment affects your....what did you call us, butt hurt??.....sense of INTEGRITY.

WHEN did our forum turn into facebook exactly?


Actually, Tony, I am not denying anyone should be neutral, but am advising them not to hide behind fake objectivity.
And, to be clear I didn’t call YOU “butthurt” but a paricular respondent who attacked my position and ethics in a way more personal manner.
Again, the responses you mention are not directed to you, as you’ve kept your language focused on the subject at hand and not directed personally.
I will respond in kind always.

Again as I’ve stated earlier “SO FAR, the case put forth by the Wetton estate SEEMS to have the most ring of truth and to be the most plausible”

I also said numerous times: “I hope I’m wrong” or “If I am proven wrong”
I really don’t think I can be more clear than that.


Edited by jimkost2002 (03/15/19 02:12 PM)
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#2980406 - Yesterday at 02:34 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: jimkost2002]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/15/18
Posts: 63
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
...you are espousing is moral relativism ie “whatever is right for YOU is right.”...

Nope. I pointed to your moral relativism, funny you should think of it.

Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
...My assesment of this situation is simply that my BS detector went off the charts when I heard about this lawsuit....

Truth determined by jimost2002's "BS detector" .....uh huh.


Exactly how do YOU define “moral relativism”?
Let’s hear it....I havent seen YOUR understanding of the definition stated here....

It does not matter. I was not espousing it. YOU saw it in your own words then flipped it around trying to make it my intent when it was in YOUR words all along. You have lost all rationale in your desperate need to have your point of view validated. Your presentation is flawed. Getting worked up is not going to make it more convincing. Do you care this much about Wetton? It appears that being right and getting people to side with you is your objective here.

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#2980409 - Yesterday at 03:54 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: o0Ampy0o]
jimkost2002 Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 1204
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
[quote=jimkost2002]...you are espousing is moral relativism ie “whatever is right for YOU is right.”...

Nope. I pointed to your moral relativism, funny you should think of it.

Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
...My assesment of this situation is simply that my BS detector went off the charts when I heard about this lawsuit....

Truth determined by jimost2002's "BS detector" .....uh huh.


Exactly how do YOU define “moral relativism”?
Let’s hear it....I havent seen YOUR understanding of the definition stated here....

It does not matter. I was not espousing it. YOU saw it in your own words then flipped it around trying to make it my intent when it was in YOUR words all along. You have lost all rationale in your desperate need to have your point of view validated. Your presentation is flawed. Getting worked up is not going to make it more convincing. Do you care this much about Wetton? It appears that being right and getting people to side with you is your objective here. [/quote]

So, I just put your responses to my posts under logical scrutiny.
It would appear from your response here that you are laboring under dynamic projection.
I’ve stated continually that my perspective comes from examining what has been stated publicly in this case against my own 32 years as a professional inthis business.
I, personally, don’t have a dog inthis fight.
For the last time, I have continually used phrases like “If I am proven wrong” “I hope I am wrong”;etc. im my posts here. Yes, I have stated my perspective with passion and conviction, but I dont apologize for that.


Edited by jimkost2002 (Yesterday at 03:55 AM)
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#2980431 - Yesterday at 07:44 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: jimkost2002]
o0Ampy0o Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/15/18
Posts: 63
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
...I, personally, don’t have a dog inthis fight....

Then back it up by letting go of this. Your actions indicate that you have something at stake in this. No matter how you phrase things you cannot undo what has already been revealed in your posts.

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#2980534 - Today at 04:50 AM Re: Law suit between John Wetton's estate, and Eddie Jobson [Re: o0Ampy0o]
jimkost2002 Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 1204
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: o0Ampy0o
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
...I, personally, don’t have a dog inthis fight....

Then back it up by letting go of this. Your actions indicate that you have something at stake in this. No matter how you phrase things you cannot undo what has already been revealed in your posts.


Once Again:
YOU are responding to my posts emotionally and defensively, with texbook dynamic projection.
look it up
I am responsing with logic and real world experience
‘nuff said.

To the forum moderators and other readers of this post:
I debated replying privately to the quoted respondant, but decided to make this, my last, response public in hopes to end the exchange in the most civil manner possible.



Edited by jimkost2002 (36 minutes 40 seconds ago)
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