Music

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: d / halfnote] #2980399
03/17/19 01:42 AM
03/17/19 01:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
Larryz Offline
10k Club
Larryz  Offline
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
+1 d, let's get back on the topic that seems to be missing out on this thread (i.e "Bluegrass Guitar") that Doc started with. Here's a little lesson sample on how to "noodle" around with some bluegrass improv which I found interesting and gave me a few ideas for my "G runs" study:




cool

Last edited by Larryz; 03/17/19 01:58 AM.

Take care, Larryz
GP Island
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: Larryz] #2980460
03/17/19 03:53 PM
03/17/19 03:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,703
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,703
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
That's cool, LZ, & fits with the generic, style-defining vids I posted just above.
Not just an illustration of the style but an analytic suggestion of what/how.

Here's a couple clips that followed that one.
Each adds something to my understanding of the tradition but also show how it's moved a bit forward.



This one explains how a master player makes some choices.


But at risk of repeating myself, I'd like to consider not just the past but the future & ask where one takes a music style or if some music styles can be taken anywhere.

We know the blues, for ex., has managed to evolve & stays with us today in ways that are both trad & modern.
Mainstream C&W, as well.
What abt BGrass ?

These sound like bluegrass to me.
What's everyone else think ?
Trad-style tune / non-trad playing style


Trad playing style/ non-trad tune


Those both may seem a bit odd at 2st but listen more than once & consider.... snax


d=halfnote
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: d / halfnote] #2980490
03/17/19 07:07 PM
03/17/19 07:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
Larryz Offline
10k Club
Larryz  Offline
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
In the 1st Tony Rice clip you hear more traditional vibe and in the 2nd you hear more jazz chords coming your way. There has been several versions of Jazz Grass out there with tons of great improvisation. Here's a sample of one:



I think the water is always purest closer to the well. I think traditional Blue Grass, Blues, Jazz, Country and Rock and Roll will always be kept alive. I also think each of them have been and will continue to be revisited by players from other genres. Like classical masters from way back finding their music incorporated into today's Rock.

I love doing my own take on old classics but always try to pay homage to the gist of the original. In the clip I posted, he talks about freedom to improvise in the Blue Grass style, but I think he does it in such a way that lets him fit in with the old guys...that's the direction I like to see. Blue grass players are masters at improv IMHO. cool


Take care, Larryz
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: Larryz] #2980530
03/18/19 08:12 AM
03/18/19 08:12 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 11,680
Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
whitefang Offline
10k Club
whitefang  Offline
10k Club

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 11,680
Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Originally Posted By: Larryz
I think the water is always purest closer to the well. I think traditional Blue Grass, Blues, Jazz, Country and Rock and Roll will always be kept alive. I also think each of them have been and will continue to be revisited by players from other genres. Like classical masters from way back finding their music incorporated into today's Rock.


Well not only incorporating classical music in today's "rock", but too it's still getting played as originally written and intended. And millions of people worldwide still flock and gather to hear it that way!

Now, I know this'll be way OT (and I discovered why the YT clips wouldn't play sound and corrected it) but based on everything I read and heard others say about Beethoven is, that if he could hear, he'd have liked this! ----



And Copeland DID hear this and really dug it as well wink -----

From Copeland's "Four Dances from Rodeo"....



ELP were MASTERS at not only "incorporating" classical themes into the "rock" genre, but making rock tunes OUT of them as well! smile

wink
Whitefang


I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: Larryz] #2980616
03/18/19 06:00 PM
03/18/19 06:00 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,703
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,703
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Larryz
I think the water is always purest closer to the well. I think traditional Blue Grass, Blues, Jazz, Country and Rock and Roll will always be kept alive. I also think each of them have been and will continue to be revisited by players from other genres. Like classical masters from way back finding their music incorporated into today's Rock.

That's all OK.
Going back to the source is always good.
However, the fact is that any art or music form that doesn't advance in some ways is inevitably doomed to death.
Consider European classical music if it never advanced beyond Bach to Mozart, Beethoven, etc ?
Dead & never reaching its potential.
Jazz if it had ended when Dixieland zealots tried to end its advances of BeBop, Cool, Fusion, etc ?
Blues if nothing was new after 1950 ?
Rock if had stopped w/ the 1950s cats ?
In each case, dead & never reaching its potential.


To advance a music doesn't obliterate its essence; to do so is what keeps an art form alive, actually.
Otherwise it becomes a museum piece subject to re-enactment but not a living form.

BTW, has anyone considered the 2 trax above in a BGrass context ?
snax
-----------------------

As for ELP, none of the above has anything to do with what I'm suggesting (or even what the poster suggests, really).


d=halfnote
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: d / halfnote] #2980654
03/18/19 10:42 PM
03/18/19 10:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 987
Virginia
DocPate Offline OP
Gold Member
DocPate  Offline OP
Gold Member

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 987
Virginia
Originally Posted By: d

BTW, has anyone considered the 2 trax above in a BGrass context


It's always interesting to see how threads take twists and turns.

But, if it's amplified, it ain't bluegrass.

And we don't 'low no drums.

Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: DocPate] #2980667
03/19/19 01:10 AM
03/19/19 01:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
Larryz Offline
10k Club
Larryz  Offline
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
@ Fang, Beethoven could hear up until about he age of 21...I'm sure he would have liked a ton of our way back machine music, if it was around during his lifetime, to include modern versions of his music...for Roll Over Beethoven, I prefer George Harrison LOL! cool


@ d, I don't think you advance any musical genre by obliterating the original concepts. Having those museum pieces around to relate back to, gives meaning to the genre IMHO. I would agree that the "living form" can be a good thing and advance the art form, but it can also provide a certain amount of crap at times LOL! cool

@ Doc, I get a kick out of Bluegrass anti electronics puristos! It's amazing to see how many are using instrument pickups as opposed to pure acoustics playing around a central mic...speaking of mics, I was amused when I attended a bluegrass festival and while all the bands were on break, the stage had all kinds of mics and stands sitting there plugged into PA speakers and mixer boards, etc. There is a lot of electronics involved in getting that pure sound out to an audience.

also, on not allowing drums, there was a time when drummers played behind the curtain and were not allowed up on stage. Elvis was one of the first to bring DJ out from behind the curtain and put him into the act where everyone could see the drummer LOL! I know what you mean though as you don't see drummers in bluegrass bands. Maybe this is the new direction that d might like to see someday? cool


just a few comments, not wanting to start any controversies LOL! cool


Take care, Larryz
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: Larryz] #2980702
03/19/19 08:43 AM
03/19/19 08:43 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 11,680
Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
whitefang Offline
10k Club
whitefang  Offline
10k Club

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 11,680
Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
laugh
Larry, you tickle the hell outa me! roll

Bringing up GEORGE HARRISON in a short discussion and example of "incorporating" Beethoven into modern music! boing

And Ludwig IS a good example, as not unlike others over the years, (Louis Armstrong, Red Nichols, Glen Miller, Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis and many others in other genres who've changed the landscape and direction of their respective genres) he was one of the major architects of the direction orchestral music would go. It actually goes back to MOZART, who did have some influence on Beethoven( and so it began! wink )

And worry not, ELVIS is in that "chain of command" wink
Whitefang


I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: whitefang] #2980724
03/19/19 11:36 AM
03/19/19 11:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
Larryz Offline
10k Club
Larryz  Offline
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
@ Fang, And while you're [Chuck-a-ling], don't forget "to tell Tchaikovsky the news!" Chuck Berry was responsible for "incorporating" Beethoven and Tchaikovsky into Rock and Roll lyrics, I just followed a little bit of OT from Bluegrass guitar and don't forget that Ludwig got his name put on a lot of bass drums too LOL! Someday maybe someone will come along and change the landscape of bluegrass guitar in much the same manner as all of the other greats...but if you don't keep some of the roots, no one will know it was bluegrass IMHO. cool

Last edited by Larryz; 03/19/19 11:41 AM.

Take care, Larryz
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: Larryz] #2980804
03/19/19 05:39 PM
03/19/19 05:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,703
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,703
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Larryz
d, I don't think you advance any musical genre by obliterating the original concepts. Having those museum pieces around to relate back to, gives meaning to the genre IMHO. I would agree that the "living form" can be a good thing and advance the art form, but it can also provide a certain amount of crap at times LOL! cool

A mistaken reading of my points.
Abandoning the original sources isn't at all part of it...although in any music that lasts long enough those recede (heard a Moon Mulligan or Little Richard cover lately ?).
& crap doesn't only happen via later additions but is there in any art from the get go.
But to make it clear, any form that doesn't advance inevitably becomes a dead museum relic...& then the original wellspring is gone anyway !

It's kinda like "I loves you so much, Baby, that I'll kill before I share you with anyone or let you change".

As for this...
Originally Posted By: DocPate
Originally Posted By: d

BTW, has anyone considered the 2 trax above in a BGrass context


if it's amplified, it ain't bluegrass.


?
rolleyes
Uh, how ya'll hearing that stuff anywhere/anytime ?


d=halfnote
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: whitefang] #2980807
03/19/19 05:52 PM
03/19/19 05:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,703
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,703
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Quote:
:"incorporating" Beethoven into modern music!
And Ludwig IS a good example, as not unlike others over the years, (Louis Armstrong, Red Nichols, Glen Miller, Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis and many others in other genres

However the examples posted above were legit instances of adapting anything.
They were examples of exploiting something for promotional effect.
I'm sure the poster would love to continue to argue that point but that it itself would be another diversion from the actual point of this thread, eh ?
Therefore unworthy of further response.


d=halfnote
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: d / halfnote] #2980825
03/19/19 07:27 PM
03/19/19 07:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 987
Virginia
DocPate Offline OP
Gold Member
DocPate  Offline OP
Gold Member

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 987
Virginia
Interesting article on plugging in bluegrass guitar

http://www.harveyreid.com/writing/articles/bluegrassplugged.html

Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: DocPate] #2980835
03/19/19 08:29 PM
03/19/19 08:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
Larryz Offline
10k Club
Larryz  Offline
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
+1 d, there is always a lot of crap from the get go in any genre. But if it gets recorded and enough people like it and buy it, that's what counts. One man's garbage is another's treasure...I have no objection in seeing the old become new again or adding new instruments, rhythms, improvisation, vocal harmonies, electronics, effects, etc. to help Bluegrass or any other genre evolve. But I still think you have to keep the roots of genre involved. I know I never get your points right. Misreading can be just my interpretation of what your comments said to me, and I may be the only one who read it that way and commented...Can't say I've heard a bluegrass cover of Little Richard lately but I wouldn't doubt that there is one out there LOL!. I've heard some very cool covers by bluegrass bands of Motown hits and other genre covers... cool


@ Doc, interesting article. I didn't do a full read but I got the gist of it. It also covers a little of what I was saying about the electronics/PA involvement and/or the circle around the mic, and the circle of the crowd up close around the musicians that gets to hear the [true blue] (my new term for it). Then the up close crowd muffles the sound for the rest of the audience. Getting the acoustic sound as true as possible out to a large audience takes some very good soundmen and equipment.

I foresee instruments running special pickups and/or special mics going direct into stereo PA's using XLR inputs. Scott could be the best one out here to tell us how or if this could be how we get to true blue. Banjo is loud compared to the acoustic guitar and so is a resonator guitar. The bass is never loud enough for me. The violin is nice and loud...harmonicas are loud (although I never see them used much), mandolins need more volume. Vocals cut through just fine. I know volume is not everything and getting a true blue sound might just keep it the way things are now LOL! I think sound equipment could equalize things quite a bit and we will see more electronics in the future...maybe even a drummer LOL! cool

ps. here is your article quote on the concept I too am thinking about:

"As bluegrass music prepares to enter the 21st century, and as urbanized versions of traditional music face new audiences, the issues of amplifying and plugging in a bluegrass band remain areas of controversy between the progressive and conservative factions of the bluegrass community. At the same time, new tools and technologies are helping musicians bridge the gulf between under-amplification and over-amplification, and the issues and choices are changing every day."

Last edited by Larryz; 03/19/19 08:46 PM.

Take care, Larryz
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: Larryz] #2980843
03/19/19 09:50 PM
03/19/19 09:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,703
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,703
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
I don't know how I could state it more clearly than I did already.
To advance doesn't mean forgetting the past.
Advancing is what keeps the past alive rather than dead.

As to the issue of BGrass amplification...in fact that's as irrelevant, I think, as saying you couldn't use certain instruments.
The tools aren't the music.


d=halfnote
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: d / halfnote] #2980859
03/19/19 10:48 PM
03/19/19 10:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,360
CEB Offline
10k Club
CEB  Offline
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,360
It's Bluegrass. Using individual amplification isn't an advancement. I have Fishman electronic pickups and preamp DIs and amplification in/for my banjo/Dobros/Acoustic guitars because I don't play bluegrass. I'm always working with electric guitars and drums.

If I played bluegrass though I would ditch all that and work off the condenser mics because that is what works best. The dynamic of banjos, fiddles, mandolins, Dobros, guitars, and bass are all different. Banjos are loud, Mandos not so much. There's no money in Bluegrass so you don't travel with full production like Rock and Country gigs. You want to play off a mic just like vocalist like to play off a mic. Many singers hate headset mics because they can't escape them. A bluegrass band mixes it's self by changing their positions relative to the mic. Direct amping or DI int the bass is cool. Bass usually Isn't a solo instrument and is sometimes hard to hear. You don't need an very active soundman on the FOH if a Bluegrass band knows how to play together and your players have good touch. Also a good condenser sounds way better than transducers, piezo elements and magnetic pickups. You can't use a condenser in an electric band the bands are too loud.

Last edited by CEB; 03/19/19 10:59 PM.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!
So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: d / halfnote] #2980879
03/20/19 12:24 AM
03/20/19 12:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
Larryz Offline
10k Club
Larryz  Offline
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
Originally Posted By: d
I don't know how I could state it more clearly than I did already.
To advance doesn't mean forgetting the past.
Advancing is what keeps the past alive rather than dead.

As to the issue of BGrass amplification...in fact that's as irrelevant, I think, as saying you couldn't use certain instruments.
The tools aren't the music.


We are on two different wave lengths d. For instance I do not hear bluegrass guitar in your Luca Stricagnoli or your Ewan Dobson videos. You do. Perhaps you have the better ear. I do hear Bluegrass guitar in the video(s) I posted, neither of which are sticking to traditional blue grass guitar and promote improvisation within the genre. I also hear more bluegrass in the 1st Tony Rice video and not as much in the 2nd. He is a fantastic guitar player either way IMHO.

I agree that Blues has evolved and changed and stayed with us both old and new. The museum pieces are still there and have been revisited countless times. To answer your question (i.e. what about blue grass?) I'm not saying you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater and I think Bluegrass has evolved and will continue to do so. Both traditional and modern.

I think the instruments do make a big difference, but I'm not saying you should not try new ones. You don't see any pedal or lap steal guitars, no keyboards, few harmonicas, no electric guitars, no drums, no rock star Kiss outfits, metal, rappers, etc., at a Bluegrass jam. Not saying it can't happen down the road. I think taking it beyond the norm is OK in your home studio and with a like minded group of musicians. I like to stretch the boundaries when I play my renditions of country/rock and roll/jazz/etc.. When I play out, the
audiences like what I do. If going outside the box keeps things alive, then by all means do it...I try to just have fun and fit in when it's called for but have showed up to acoustic open mics with my semi-hollow body electric T5 Taylor guitar several times... cool


ps. like CEB, I don't play bluegrass guitar, but I appreciate those that do. I think a few of my little country lead runs could fit in but I'm not a bluegrass or country flat picker...I prefer being plugged in so I stay clear of the BG genre. I will jam with BG pickers anytime they invite me to. I have played with a couple of BG friends here and there and have had fun playing with them. They are truly talented.



Last edited by Larryz; 03/20/19 12:48 AM.

Take care, Larryz
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: Larryz] #2980911
03/20/19 07:44 AM
03/20/19 07:44 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 11,680
Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
whitefang Offline
10k Club
whitefang  Offline
10k Club

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 11,680
Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Y'know Larry, early on here I posted a clip of The Dixie Dregs playing their tune "The Bash", which I claimed sounded in a bluegrass "vibe" (to me at least). And of course, Morse was playing a Tele, so.....

And somewhere else I made comment that; "there's got to be some respect for tradition. After all, with the exception of some electronics in the form of keyboard synths and the like mixed with all the acoustic strings and such in orchestras playing contemporary orchestral music(ie: Loren Rush compositions, etc.), but most symphony repertoires are still played with non-electric instruments."

I'm reluctant to tell ANY musician in America, and who's over 21 years of age( or even UNDER far as that goes) that they shouldn't play any music they want to any WAY they wish to. But too, I also have the choice to NOT listen to it if I wish not to! wink
Whitefang


I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: whitefang] #2980935
03/20/19 11:03 AM
03/20/19 11:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
Larryz Offline
10k Club
Larryz  Offline
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
I'm a believer too in freedom to do as one wishes. I can see playing bluegrass on a Tele or any other guitar. I don't change the guitar I'm playing for each genre. If you can make it sound good, go for it. You may not fit in with a Tele at a traditional bluegrass jam even if you are over 21 LOL!

Same goes for jazz but they are more accepting of solid body guitars instead of the big jazz boxes these days. Joe Pass started out on a Fender Jazzmaster (even though it didn't catch on in the jazz world). A lot of how one fits in has more to do with the look. That includes the way one even dresses for the jam.

I think more and more instruments will be added to the bluegrass world, but the old acoustic guitar will continue to be a workhorse and a custom fit at any of today's bluegrass jams. cool

Last edited by Larryz; 03/20/19 11:05 AM.

Take care, Larryz
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: Larryz] #2980957
03/20/19 01:18 PM
03/20/19 01:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 987
Virginia
DocPate Offline OP
Gold Member
DocPate  Offline OP
Gold Member

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 987
Virginia
@Larry I think that's why the terms Americana and Newgrass were created. It's just the traditional acoustic instruments that define Bluegrass as we know it. When we play amplified, we refer to it as Americana which includes all of the'Roots" music. Blues, Folk, Bluegrass, String Bands, etc.

Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: DocPate] #2980982
03/20/19 02:55 PM
03/20/19 02:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
Larryz Offline
10k Club
Larryz  Offline
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
I posted this video on the other forum discussion of the same topic Doc...I'll post it here as well for our forum members. Marty Stuart was there in the early 70's playing in acoustic Bluegrass bands. I sat in the front row and watched this performance (when he came to my town) of him playing an electrified mandolin solo bluegrass style, and telling his story as a young kid playing in Lester Flatt's band. I think it shows that amplification is what you need to get the sound out to a large audiences. Thanks though, for letting me know what Americana is. I have heard the term so many times, but never really understood what it meant. I thought of good old American folk kind of stuff but I guess it should include other stuff from rock and roll, country, blues and jazz too...anyway here's the clip and the story from Marty's lips:



cool

BTW; here he is again with a little bit of [drums] at a bluegrass festival with their guitars, bass and drum plugged in, while singing through that condenser mic CEB spoke of. Kind of putting a lot of what I referred to right out front on stage for a bluegrass crowd with a little country rock/bluegrass vibe:



rimshot

Last edited by Larryz; 03/21/19 12:00 AM.

Take care, Larryz
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: Larryz] #2980994
03/20/19 04:41 PM
03/20/19 04:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 987
Virginia
DocPate Offline OP
Gold Member
DocPate  Offline OP
Gold Member

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 987
Virginia
@Larryz. Yes, Marty Stuart dropped by the Carl Tipton Show a few times. With Johnny Cash. They were best friends for sure. Carl's band was my first job as a musician and definitely Bluegrass.

Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: DocPate] #2981020
03/20/19 11:50 PM
03/20/19 11:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
Larryz Offline
10k Club
Larryz  Offline
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
@ Doc, you're a lucky man for getting to work on that show and meeting some of the big guns! thu


Take care, Larryz
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: DocPate] #2981044
03/21/19 08:50 AM
03/21/19 08:50 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 11,680
Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
whitefang Offline
10k Club
whitefang  Offline
10k Club

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 11,680
Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Originally Posted By: DocPate
@Larry I think that's why the terms Americana and Newgrass were created. It's just the traditional acoustic instruments that define Bluegrass as we know it. When we play amplified, we refer to it as Americana which includes all of the'Roots" music. Blues, Folk, Bluegrass, String Bands, etc.


Yep. Some people feel hey gotta come up with ANY kind of label, fitting or not. And some of them don't necessarily have much to do with any kind of different genre, like "Americana" which sounds like old folk and folk-rock to me, or "Indie", which hints at referring to"independence", but mostly( to me) sounds a lot like the kind of "underground" stuff we'd listen to on the fledgling FM stations back in the late '60's.
Whitefang


I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: whitefang] #2981053
03/21/19 10:55 AM
03/21/19 10:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,360
CEB Offline
10k Club
CEB  Offline
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,360
Those clips are too high tech. Everyone had their own mic and guitars are plugged in. I was talking about everyone but the bassist using a single mic. If We do not have a sound guy out front then this is still the way I prefer to do it. This way always works. I watch every live clip I can find of the various incarnation of Bluegrass bands involving Tony Rice, Jerry Douglas, Sam Bush, Bela Fleck, Mark O'Connor . These guys are the elite playing the best gigs and you find instances where the sound guy was sleeping and a soloist is Several bars into a solo before you can hear him.

Last edited by CEB; 03/21/19 10:57 AM.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!
So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: CEB] #2981054
03/21/19 10:56 AM
03/21/19 10:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,360
CEB Offline
10k Club
CEB  Offline
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,360


"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!
So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: CEB] #2981066
03/21/19 12:41 PM
03/21/19 12:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
Larryz Offline
10k Club
Larryz  Offline
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
You are correct CEB and I have mentioned the same thing in earlier posts (i.e. playing around a central condenser mic and/or having individual mics). Each guy stepping up when his lead comes in as seen in your video. Marty and the boys are just doing a guest appearance and getting away with plugging in at a Bluegrass festival. They usually play more country rock using Telecasters. I have seen him live doing the mandolin solo telling the story in the first clip, and all 4 including the drummer do come down as seen in the BG clip. I'll bet they were the only ones at the BG festival that plugged their guitars in!

But, I thought it was well accepted by the audience who usually prefer it through a central condenser mic and with the individual mics that you see on stage in the vid...Only Marty could get away with such a breach of BG protocol LOL! +1 it's too high tech in the BG world, but the methods Marty uses to amplify the instruments may lead to some future concepts in the BG world...When they come down front at their normal gigs, they are all using cordless transmitters which you will see on the snare if you look closely at the end of the BG vid and you'll see one on the bass as well. Usually they don't have cords on the guitars and that was something special to see in the clip which shows they were plugged in. cool



Last edited by Larryz; 03/21/19 12:51 PM.

Take care, Larryz
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: Larryz] #2981087
03/21/19 02:32 PM
03/21/19 02:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,367
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
p90jr  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,367
This thread rules.

I took to rockabilly as a kid (there was a bit of a local scene) and could play those riffs and in turn a bit of "chicken-pickin'" country rock in the James Burton style, but a while ago I got hired to play acoustic guitar in a play and one of the songs I was given to learn was an acoustic version of "Will The Circle Be Unbroken," which terrified me... bluegrass isn't part of my heritage or cultural milieu... I shedded on that a lot to get some of it down, then it turned out all I needed to actually do in the play was a very brief introductory riff that they thought I nailed the first time... whew! I know Doc Watson said bluegrass was "what happened when the radio carried jazz up the mountain," but... jazz included bits for the horn players to breathe and that worked it's way into how the guitarists and pianists and the rest of soloists phrased things. Bluegrass is perpetual motion in the hands of the greats... It's something I try to work on for the challenge, so these links are great. Thanks!

Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: p90jr] #2981144
03/21/19 08:14 PM
03/21/19 08:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 987
Virginia
DocPate Offline OP
Gold Member
DocPate  Offline OP
Gold Member

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 987
Virginia
We have to keep in mind that the lead instruments in Bluegrass are fiddle, banjo and mandolin. The fiddle and Banjo have sufficient volume unamplified to fill a big room. Even in a small outdoor venue, these carry well. So the mandolin player could use the PA system along with the vocalist. The guitar is just a rhythm instrument.

Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: DocPate] #2981211
03/22/19 11:34 AM
03/22/19 11:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
Larryz Offline
10k Club
Larryz  Offline
10k Club

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,102
Northern California
+1 P90, I hear a lot of jazz improvisation in Bluegrass recordings with the guitar getting more involved in soloing. I have noticed it in more modern Bluegrass (i.e. since the 70's), like in the Jazz Grass Waltz video I posted above... cool

This came out in the 77' you'll hear guitar throughout. I think Django would have fit in back in the 30's LOL! Fast forward to 5:05:



cool

Last edited by Larryz; 03/22/19 11:48 AM.

Take care, Larryz
Re: Bluegrass Guitar [Re: CEB] #2981245
03/22/19 01:35 PM
03/22/19 01:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,703
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
D
d / halfnote Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
d / halfnote  Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
D

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,703
no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: CEB
It's Bluegrass. Using individual amplification isn't an advancement. I have Fishman electronic pickups and preamp DIs and amplification in/for my banjo/Dobros/Acoustic guitars because I don't play bluegrass. I'm always working with electric guitars and drums.

If I played bluegrass though I would ditch all that and work off the condenser mics because that is what works best. The dynamic of banjos, fiddles, mandolins, Dobros, guitars, and bass are all different. Banjos are loud, Mandos not so much. There's no money in Bluegrass so you don't travel with full production like Rock and Country gigs. You want to play off a mic just like vocalist like to play off a mic. Many singers hate headset mics because they can't escape them. A bluegrass band mixes it's self by changing their positions relative to the mic. Direct amping or DI int the bass is cool. Bass usually Isn't a solo instrument and is sometimes hard to hear. You don't need an very active soundman on the FOH if a Bluegrass band knows how to play together and your players have good touch. Also a good condenser sounds way better than transducers, piezo elements and magnetic pickups. You can't use a condenser in an electric band the bands are too loud.

I think all that's beside the point.
It's beside the point for those who want to use any particular gear & play the music they desire.
It only matters to those who want to establish some restrictive rules abt the music.
Those who actually care abt the music itself are concerned only with the music.

This particular form was deliberately created as a sort of hillbilly jazz.
Guess what ?
Many traditionalists disliked it ("too busy", "too modern").
Now, in a way that seems exactly like what old-line Dixieland jazz fans, there are those who oppose any changes or alterations of what they like &/or understand.

That seeks to make any musical form a musem piece rather than a living, growing form.
---------------------------------------
As far as this...
Originally Posted By: DocPate
@Larry I think that's why the terms Americana and Newgrass were created. It's just the traditional acoustic instruments that define Bluegrass as we know it. When we play amplified, we refer to it as Americana which includes all of the'Roots" music. Blues, Folk, Bluegrass, String Bands, etc.

That's a valid point but it only really switches between terms...the equivalent of saying Blues Rock or Jazz Fusion.
If that makes it palatable to someone, OK, but it's' really just quibbling over a name & kinda beside the point of any musical quality.
---------------------------------------

This idea seems to me even less relevant as per music.

Originally Posted By: CEB
Those clips are too high tech. Everyone had their own mic and guitars are plugged in. I was talking about everyone but the bassist using a single mic. If We do not have a sound guy out front then this is still the way I prefer to do it. This way always works. I watch every live clip I can find of the various incarnation of Bluegrass bands involving Tony Rice, Jerry Douglas, Sam Bush, Bela Fleck, Mark O'Connor . These guys are the elite playing the best gigs and you find instances where the sound guy was sleeping and a soloist is Several bars into a solo before you can hear him.

That's just abt the overall EQ tonality.
Kinda like "Lester & the boys / Phil & Don / John & Paul only sound right when the're singing into the same mic" or "CDs don't sound like vinyls LPs don't sound like my reel-to-reel".
Regardless of some cats moving up to or back from a mic or decrying modern sound repro, that's a sound timbre question, not one of music.
--------------
Originally Posted By: DocPate
We have to keep in mind that the lead instruments in Bluegrass are fiddle, banjo and mandolin. The fiddle and Banjo have sufficient volume unamplified to fill a big room. Even in a small outdoor venue, these carry well. So the mandolin player could use the PA system along with the vocalist. The guitar is just a rhythm instrument.

So this PO ... idk
Originally Posted By: DocPate
I realize that probably 99.9% of the people here are more into Rock than Bluegrass, but this is a genre that requires a lot of technical skill.

Begins with the "G" run.


artistworks.com/blog/essential-bluegrass-guitar-licks-g-run

Listen at about 25 secs.




Read more: http://guitarplayersforum.boards.net/thread/754/bluegrass-guitar#ixzz5hhzBESv1


I think the idea htat some instruments can't be part of the picture or that the imge is more vital than the evolving reality is the epitome of anti-modernity.
"Yo, Gtr Boy, no soup for you !" facepalm


d=halfnote
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  A String, Bluesape, myles_rose 

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1