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#2976179 - 02/17/19 10:22 AM GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report....
Delaware Dave Offline
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Registered: 04/21/11
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I gigged with the Venice Grand last night for the first time. The default setting was noticeably louder than the previous version so I balanced the output with the other instruments. The next thing I noticed is that it is a mellower piano than the previous version, mellow like a Steinway compared to a Yamaha. I prefer the mellower, darker piano but I know that many on this site like the Yamaha sound so I'm not sure how this would go over in the community. Guido for some reason likes to to do three things with the pianos, or at least how I envision what he likes to do: 1) he compresses the keys so that the dynamics are shrunk, meaning not a lot of difference in volume between a light velocity vs. a strong velocity key hit. I adjusted the velocity out to get more dynamics in velocity. 2) He likes to use reverb on the pianos, in this case he used digital reverb. I didn't turn it off but did reduce the reverb so that the sound was more natural to my ears. 3) the harp setting he uses somehow combines with the sustain pedal and creates an unnatural buildup of notes that create a wash sound of sustain that doesnt sound natural to me. I backed off the harp and it reduced the resonance of sound . By the third set the piano was sounding quite good. I added some treble in the Gemini's EQ and a little bit more low end to get a sound that I liked. The only negative that I cant correct is that D6#, E6, F6 and F6# note volume is lower than the other notes and the piano thunk seems higher, probably because the note volume is lower. So you have to play these notes at maximum velocity to get the true piano tone. It is not my controller because I tried those same notes on the previous piano version and they sound out just fine, so it is either the sample itself or the some modeling technique but there is definitely some adjustment that is needed with those 4 notes. Other than that it is very usable. We played Roll With The Changes and the piano in the song sounded good and of course the organ (with the internal leslie sim) sounded just like the damn song. Hoping that he incorporates this whole module in a 73 or 76 key semi-weighted action keyboard (with drawbars). That's what I'm waiting for..... Oh, and an addition of a saxophone.
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#2976182 - 02/17/19 10:32 AM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: Delaware Dave]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Registered: 10/19/09
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Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
the harp setting he uses somehow combines with the sustain pedal and creates an unnatural buildup of notes that create a wash sound of sustain that doesnt sound natural to me.

Are you playing in mono or stereo?
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#2976191 - 02/17/19 11:19 AM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: Delaware Dave]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 6816
Loc: USA, greater NY area
Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
I gigged with the Venice Grand last night for the first time. The default setting was noticeably louder than the previous version so I balanced the output with the other instruments. The next thing I noticed is that it is a mellower piano than the previous version, mellow like a Steinway compared to a Yamaha. I prefer the mellower, darker piano but I know that many on this site like the Yamaha sound so I'm not sure how this would go over in the community. Guido for some reason likes to to do three things with the pianos, or at least how I envision what he likes to do: 1) he compresses the keys so that the dynamics are shrunk, meaning not a lot of difference in volume between a light velocity vs. a strong velocity key hit. I adjusted the velocity out to get more dynamics in velocity. 2) He likes to use reverb on the pianos, in this case he used digital reverb. I didn't turn it off but did reduce the reverb so that the sound was more natural to my ears. 3) the harp setting he uses somehow combines with the sustain pedal and creates an unnatural buildup of notes that create a wash sound of sustain that doesnt sound natural to me. I backed off the harp and it reduced the resonance of sound . By the third set the piano was sounding quite good. I added some treble in the Gemini's EQ and a little bit more low end to get a sound that I liked. The only negative that I cant correct is that D6#, E6, F6 and F6# note volume is very low and the piano thunk seems higher. So you have to play these notes at maximum velocity to get the true piano tone. It is not my controller because I tried those same notes on the previous piano version and they sound out just fine, so it is either the sample itself or the some modeling technique but there is definitely some adjustment that is needed with those 4 notes. Other than that it is very usable. We played Roll With The Changes and the piano in the song sounded good and of course the organ (with the internal leslie sim) sounded just like the damn song. Hoping that he incorporates this whole module in a 73 or 76 key semi-weighted action keyboard (with drawbars). That's what I'm waiting for..... Oh, and an addition of a saxophone.


Thanks for your honest experiences with the sample set and default patch settings on this new offering.
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#2976678 - 02/20/19 09:38 AM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: ElmerJFudd]
tonybanksfan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 43
Loc: canada
I'm disappointed with the Venice grand.
It's not a very clear or crisp sounding piano.
It lacks brilliance, is a little muddy,and editing the parameters make little difference to my ear.
The digital reverb definitely needs to be reduced or turned off. It also needs some EQ'ing. It's needs sharpness and resonance which I wasn't able to produce.
It's marginally better than the original grand that comes with the desktop unit.
It sounds better through headphones so I know my CPS spacestation contributes to the coloring of the sound so maybe higher end amplification would make the difference.
The pianos in my Kurzweil are still better so I'll stick with them.
The rest of the Gemini programs/patches are really good so it's still an excellent addition to my setup.
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#2976682 - 02/20/19 10:08 AM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: tonybanksfan]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 3330
Loc: Take a guess ....
Originally Posted By: tonybanksfan
I'm disappointed with the Venice grand.
It's not a very clear or crisp sounding piano.
It lacks brilliance, is a little muddy,and editing the parameters make little difference to my ear.
The digital reverb definitely needs to be reduced or turned off. It also needs some EQ'ing. It's needs sharpness and resonance which I wasn't able to produce.
It's marginally better than the original grand that comes with the desktop unit.
It sounds better through headphones so I know my CPS spacestation contributes to the coloring of the sound so maybe higher end amplification would make the difference.
The pianos in my Kurzweil are still better so I'll stick with them.
The rest of the Gemini programs/patches are really good so it's still an excellent addition to my setup.

The Fazioli is a dark piano, much akin to a Steinway (the Kurzweil piano on your PC3k is Steinway-based). It seems on this forum the piano sound of choice is a Yamaha which is much brighter. That might be why it appears to lack brilliance. You also mentioned your use of the Spacestation. I've read many reports here about the Spacestation's sound and acoustic piano; so it is possible that some of your issues might be a result of the darker piano tone combined with the Spacestation. You did mention that headphones sound better so the Spacestation could be playing a role in the sound degradation.

I'm curious as to whether you noticed if keys D6# through F6 tone volume was reduced as compared to the surrounding notes. If I do a cromatic up the keyboard when I hit D6# the volume of the piano tone drops from D6# through note F6#, then returns to normal volume on G6. The piano thunk is more distinct with these 4 notes but probably because the actual piano tone is reduced. Can you confirm whether you get a tone reduction in these 4 notes?
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#2976733 - 02/20/19 02:58 PM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: Delaware Dave]
tonybanksfan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 43
Loc: canada
Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
Originally Posted By: tonybanksfan
I'm disappointed with the Venice grand.
It's not a very clear or crisp sounding piano.
It lacks brilliance, is a little muddy,and editing the parameters make little difference to my ear.
The digital reverb definitely needs to be reduced or turned off. It also needs some EQ'ing. It's needs sharpness and resonance which I wasn't able to produce.
It's marginally better than the original grand that comes with the desktop unit.
It sounds better through headphones so I know my CPS spacestation contributes to the coloring of the sound so maybe higher end amplification would make the difference.
The pianos in my Kurzweil are still better so I'll stick with them.
The rest of the Gemini programs/patches are really good so it's still an excellent addition to my setup.

The Fazioli is a dark piano, much akin to a Steinway (the Kurzweil piano on your PC3k is Steinway-based). It seems on this forum the piano sound of choice is a Yamaha which is much brighter. That might be why it appears to lack brilliance. You also mentioned your use of the Spacestation. I've read many reports here about the Spacestation's sound and acoustic piano; so it is possible that some of your issues might be a result of the darker piano tone combined with the Spacestation. You did mention that headphones sound better so the Spacestation could be playing a role in the sound degradation.

I'm curious as to whether you noticed if keys D6# through F6 tone volume was reduced as compared to the surrounding notes. If I do a cromatic up the keyboard when I hit D6# the volume of the piano tone drops from D6# through note F6#, then returns to normal volume on G6. The piano thunk is more distinct with these 4 notes but probably because the actual piano tone is reduced. Can you confirm whether you get a tone reduction in these 4 notes?

I do not. Those notes are normal but the plot thickens here. My G6,G#6,A6,A#6,B6 are clearly louder whether pressed soft or hard. There is no change in "thunk" but definitely and noticeably louder. What the heck?
It's not my Kurzweil cause I've just checked multiple pianos and other programs. I can't replicate it with other Gemini pianos/programs either.
Maybe Guido didn't get all the bugs out before releasing it.
ps, I'm definitely a richer Yamaha sounding fan.
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#2976737 - 02/20/19 03:45 PM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: tonybanksfan]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 6816
Loc: USA, greater NY area
It goes to show, sampling and programming an acoustic piano library that gets universal thumbs up from players is no simple endeavor. Especially when having the library compared to the many digital facsimiles weíve come to enjoy and rely on. But the effort is a step in the right direction for GSI who arenít known for this. But the organs and EPs are so good, surely at some point theyíll have an exceptional acoustic piano thatís all their own as opposed to licensing it from elsewhere.
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#2976748 - 02/20/19 04:18 PM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: Delaware Dave]
ChazKeys Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/26/14
Posts: 123
Loc: Yorkshire UK
Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave

I'm curious as to whether you noticed if keys D6# through F6 tone volume was reduced as compared to the surrounding notes. If I do a cromatic up the keyboard when I hit D6# the volume of the piano tone drops from D6# through note F6#, then returns to normal volume on G6. The piano thunk is more distinct with these 4 notes but probably because the actual piano tone is reduced. Can you confirm whether you get a tone reduction in these 4 notes?


Well I have noticed that several keys have a different tone/volume.

Assuming C3 is middle C:

F3 F#3 G3 - sound more woody than the surrounding keys

D#6, E6, F6 - they sound 'damped' i.e. they don't ring as much as the keys around them so they are a little quieter? Am I right in saying there are no dampers on the highest strings of grand piano? Can't remember - anyway some of these notes like F#5 and higher 'ring' a lot more than F5 for example.

My take on this is is that it's the character of the piano they have sampled - keeping it natural and authentic? I remember GSi's strap line years ago was "imperfection is a feature".





Edited by ChazKeys (02/20/19 04:26 PM)

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#2976749 - 02/20/19 04:22 PM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: ElmerJFudd]
ChazKeys Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/26/14
Posts: 123
Loc: Yorkshire UK
Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
But the organs and EPs are so good, surely at some point theyíll have an exceptional acoustic piano thatís all their own as opposed to licensing it from elsewhere.


I don't think they have licensed this piano. I seem to remember seeing a post on the Crumar FB page a few months ago showing a piano technician/tuner working on a grand piano. I think this related to prepping the piano for a sampling session.


Edited by ChazKeys (02/20/19 04:23 PM)

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#2976752 - 02/20/19 04:41 PM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: ChazKeys]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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Registered: 11/30/14
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Oh I wasnít implying it is licensed. Itís theirs and thatís a good thing, same with the dabbling in a piano modeling engine. In the end itís an accomplishment. Iím just saying licensing is a faster option - or not, depending on what that would cost and if it would be any easier to get playing and responding the way it needs to on their hardware.
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#2976759 - 02/20/19 05:22 PM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: ElmerJFudd]
kenheeter Offline
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Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 253
I love the inconsistencies and find them a refreshing change. Don't forget, this is Crumar and there's likely more to come....

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#2976763 - 02/20/19 05:44 PM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: kenheeter]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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Registered: 11/30/14
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Youíre going to have inconsistencies on the source acoustic instrument and its going to give it character. But what is character and what requires a call to your piano technician to voice and regulate? Sometimes a library just needs a bit more time perfecting - especially things like getting consistent volume from the same velocity key to key.
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#2976769 - 02/20/19 06:49 PM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: kenheeter]
Synthaholic Offline
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Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1816
Loc: Proud Resister of 2nd helpings
Originally Posted By: kenheeter
I love the inconsistencies and find them a refreshing change. Don't forget, this is Crumar and there's likely more to come....


I have to keep reminding myself that this ain't my father's...er...my Crumar, which I had always associated with cheaper Italian knockoffs of Minimoogs and ARP String Ensembles (although the DS2 was pretty cool in it's own right). I love seeing them as innovators. The Gemini module contains an entire Mojo, no?

Originally Posted By: tonybanksfan
I'm disappointed with the Venice grand.
It's not a very clear or crisp sounding piano.
It lacks brilliance, is a little muddy,and editing the parameters make little difference to my ear.
The digital reverb definitely needs to be reduced or turned off. It also needs some EQ'ing. It's needs sharpness and resonance which I wasn't able to produce.
It's marginally better than the original grand that comes with the desktop unit.
It sounds better through headphones so I know my CPS spacestation contributes to the coloring of the sound so maybe higher end amplification would make the difference.


Piano samples are so subjective. And what sounds great in headphones sometimes sounds awful live. I also have the Spacestation and love it, except for AP. I just found out about this Gemini module, so your comment is interesting.
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#2976810 - 02/21/19 06:20 AM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: tonybanksfan]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 3330
Loc: Take a guess ....
Originally Posted By: tonybanksfan
"..My G6,G#6,A6,A#6,B6 are clearly louder whether pressed soft or hard. There is no change in "thunk" but definitely and noticeably louder.."

And my D6#, E6, F6 and F6# appear to be highly damped, and the notes immediately above them for you are clearly louder. This indirectly supports my thinking of the notes I think are overdamped actually are overdamped. If D6# through F#6 are overdamped then it would make sense that you think the notes above them are clearly louder. Perhaps if the notes I referenced weren't overdamped then you might not then think that the next set of notes above them are too loud, they might seem more normal in a chromatic.

P.S. I sent Crumar a recording. It is being evaluated by them.


Edited by Delaware Dave (02/21/19 06:22 AM)
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#2976825 - 02/21/19 08:08 AM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: Delaware Dave]
tonybanksfan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 43
Loc: canada
Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
Originally Posted By: tonybanksfan
"..My G6,G#6,A6,A#6,B6 are clearly louder whether pressed soft or hard. There is no change in "thunk" but definitely and noticeably louder.."

And my D6#, E6, F6 and F6# appear to be highly damped, and the notes immediately above them for you are clearly louder. This indirectly supports my thinking of the notes I think are overdamped actually are overdamped. If D6# through F#6 are overdamped then it would make sense that you think the notes above them are clearly louder. Perhaps if the notes I referenced weren't overdamped then you might not then think that the next set of notes above them are too loud, they might seem more normal in a chromatic.

P.S. I sent Crumar a recording. It is being evaluated by them.


I chromaticaly went through the entire keyboard and your dampened keys are not appearing on mine. They sound perfectly in place with the same tone, thunk, or loudness. My keys at issue are definitely louder than the rest of my 88.
C4 is my middle C. Do you have the 76 key PC3? Maybe that makes a difference?
Maybe we need someone else using a different brand controller to verify their results?


Edited by tonybanksfan (02/21/19 08:13 AM)
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#2976827 - 02/21/19 08:25 AM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: tonybanksfan]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 3330
Loc: Take a guess ....
Yep, agree. Some others need to weigh in. It's interesting that my key issue is not appearing on your board. My middle C is C4 so we are talking about the same notes. I tried both my Kurzweil internal piano and the Gemini piano from the previous wavetable and those notes sound out normal, it's just the Venice where it occurs.

BTW, someone recorded a song we did with their phone. The piano sounded noticeably good in the phone recording and noticeably better than previous recordings in the same club with the same phone when I was using the previous piano sample from Wavetable 2.
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#2976902 - 02/21/19 03:04 PM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: Delaware Dave]
ChazKeys Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/26/14
Posts: 123
Loc: Yorkshire UK
It would be great if someone with a Seven could check this as well - I'm sure Max would have noticed it when he was recordung the demo tunes. I don't have any inconsistencies with the earlier pianos either. It reminds me of a similar issue on the RD64 - in that case there was just one note, G# above middle C, that sounded quite different to the other notes around it. Drove me nuts!

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#2976949 - 02/21/19 08:51 PM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: ChazKeys]
Adan Offline
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Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 2738
Loc: San Francisco
I think it's a big improvement over what was there before. But I like a darker piano tone, so I was instantly copacetic with it.

I can't bring myself to worry about whether there's some variation amongst keys. If it's ballpark within the variation of a typical real piano then I don't see a reason to complain. But I'll never be recording with it.

I don't think Venice one of the better sampled pianos available today, but it's good enough that I would no longer say the AP is Crumar's achilles' heel.
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#2976950 - 02/21/19 08:53 PM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: ChazKeys]
Adan Offline
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Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 2738
Loc: San Francisco
Originally Posted By: ChazKeys
It would be great if someone with a Seven could check this as well -


I'm not hearing a significant variation on my Seven. Maybe if I listened more closely I would, but just the fact that it's not jumping out at me is information enough for my purposes.
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#2976952 - 02/21/19 09:21 PM Re: GSI Gemini Venice Grand gig report.... [Re: Delaware Dave]
tonybanksfan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 43
Loc: canada
Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
Yep, agree. Some others need to weigh in. It's interesting that my key issue is not appearing on your board. My middle C is C4 so we are talking about the same notes. I tried both my Kurzweil internal piano and the Gemini piano from the previous wavetable and those notes sound out normal, it's just the Venice where it occurs.

BTW, someone recorded a song we did with their phone. The piano sounded noticeably good in the phone recording and noticeably better than previous recordings in the same club with the same phone when I was using the previous piano sample from Wavetable 2.

Nice. Anytime a piano can cut through a live performance and sound fine is good for keyboard players. As your aware people have long criticised the Kurzweil stock piano sounds for solo type performance's, but tend to universally agree that they cut through nicely in a live band setting.
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