What older keys players should say to younger keys players

[Bucktunes]

I'll elaborate a bit on these excellent suggestions;

Learn some theory. Otherwise, you're just wasting time trying to re-invent the circle of fifths.

And don't ever let anyone convince you that music education limits or inhibits creativity! The more you know about harmony and theory, the more creative you become. Try and tell Jacob Collier he's not creative...

 

Learn good hand and seating/standing position. Your wrists, neck, and back will thank you later. And don't play with flat fingers. Your fingers should be naturally curved when playing.

^This, x1000!^ Learn it right from the beginning, because old habits are much harder to break once they're embedded into your playing. Also, learn proper fingering so you don't have to think about it while playing. Practice until it becomes natural and automatic. As Dizzy Gillespie used to say, "Learn technique so you can forget technique".

[cphollis]

I look at all of this wonderful advice, and thing "thank $deity I do most of this already". So I guess I'm officially a wizened old dude.

 

Anyone else want to nominate this for a Key Thread?

[Sundown]

Learn to solo using just one note.

 

Brilliant...

 

I like this a lot. Timing and dynamics are critical. Pitch is just one important ingredient in the result.

[Moonglow]

Find a good mentor. I can easily attribute the most profound influences to my development as a musician/keyboard player to two or three special people.

[MathOfInsects]

"The piano doesn't know you have two hands."

[I-missRichardTee]

I hope this is viewed as related to topic

 

I have fooled around on piano, organ and now keyboard since a kid. IF you asked me "are your fingers curved or not" I would not know. I pay no attention.. and I am sure my playing of many kinds of music would show this defect .

Now to my question... a friend of mine is learning piano... his first teacher said curved fingers.. then he switched teachers and was told flat fingers.. On top of that, he said flat seems better. on top of that he cited the great Horowitz as playing less curved and more flat.

So question is... are there without doubt, at least two schools of thought on piano playing.. curved finger and more flat? Likely there are some that would combine both approaches, depending on the musical intent.

Thanks

[jejefunkyman]

Anyone else want to nominate this for a Key Thread?

 

I definitely think this should be a Key Thread!! So many good advice inside ;-)

[jejefunkyman]

4) Learn good hand and seating/standing position. Your wrists, neck, and back will thank you later. And don't play with flat fingers. Your fingers should be naturally curved when playing.

 

This one is so damn important ;-) One should never let pain grow inside because of bad body or hand positions, otherwise, this may be the beginning of the end... I'll add to this: learn to carry loads in the right way by using legs for going up and down and your abs muscles. Protect your back by all mean necessary!! Back pain is absolutely terrible, you should always keep this in mind!!!

[jimkost2002]

I hope this is viewed as related to topic

 

I have fooled around on piano, organ and now keyboard since a kid. IF you asked me "are your fingers curved or not" I would not know. I pay no attention.. and I am sure my playing of many kinds of music would show this defect .

Now to my question... a friend of mine is learning piano... his first teacher said curved fingers.. then he switched teachers and was told flat fingers.. On top of that, he said flat seems better. on top of that he cited the great Horowitz as playing less curved and more flat.

So question is... are there without doubt, at least two schools of thought on piano playing.. curved finger and more flat? Likely there are some that would combine both approaches, depending on the musical intent.

Thanks

 

I had a classical teacher in college named Albert Lotto, who studied with Horowitz.

Alberts longtime teacher at Julliard was Sascha Gorodnitski, who played flat fingered but was not dogmatic about ingraining it in his students, only those who had a certain hand structure.

But the one thing I really learned from Albert was that its not just about your FINGERS but that your WRISTS are level with the keys so that ALL hand and arm muscles can be properly engaged.

Kenny Werner says the same thing. He got that from Madame Chaloff in Boston.

[Tusker]

So much great advice here. It could be made into an app, or a set of cards (like Eno's oblique strategies). Having been around the block I kinda know this, but it helps to be reminded.

[MuzikTeechur]

Now to my question... a friend of mine is learning piano... his first teacher said curved fingers.. then he switched teachers and was told flat fingers.. On top of that, he said flat seems better. on top of that he cited the great Horowitz as playing less curved and more flat.

So question is... are there without doubt, at least two schools of thought on piano playing.. curved finger and more flat? Likely there are some that would combine both approaches, depending on the musical intent.

Thanks

 

If you can play like Horowitz, then do whatever you like. By "curved" I'm not talking "curled up like an arthritic old crone." I said "naturally curved." But play however you like, really. Here's Horowitz in '68. He plays *slightly* flatter than I do, but also his hand position is WAY closer to the fallboard than mine. Of course, he's probably playing in d# minor or the like, and needs to be way in there.

How else do you think all those gouge marks get on the lower fallboard of a well-used Steinway?

[MathOfInsects]

"Relaxed" is the important component.

 

There are two competing issues at play: the downward motion, which is easier on the physiology of the hand when fingers are curved a bit, and the independence issue, which is easier when fingers are straight. (Two fulcrum points are harder on us than one.) So depending on your style, you may find more relief with fingers bent a bit to help with the downward motion, or closer to straight to help with the horizontal independence--or a bit of both depending on the passage. Most players I know tend to go with a nice relaxed bend when playing chords and then tend toward something flatter when playing fast runs.

 

The wrist (as someone above says) is an even more important component. Allow those tendons to pass freely through the wrist or ALL your playing is going to be tense, whether your fingers are relaxed or not.

[The Real MC]

Now to my question... a friend of mine is learning piano... his first teacher said curved fingers.. then he switched teachers and was told flat fingers.. On top of that, he said flat seems better. on top of that he cited the great Horowitz as playing less curved and more flat.

So question is... are there without doubt, at least two schools of thought on piano playing.. curved finger and more flat? Likely there are some that would combine both approaches, depending on the musical intent.

Thanks

 

If you can play like Horowitz, then do whatever you like. By "curved" I'm not talking "curled up like an arthritic old crone." I said "naturally curved." But play however you like, really. Here's Horowitz in '68. He plays *slightly* flatter than I do, but also his hand position is WAY closer to the fallboard than mine. Of course, he's probably playing in d# minor or the like, and needs to be way in there.

 

Horowitz had a master technician from the Steinway Artist division regulate his personal Steinway piano to his touch. The action he preferred was very sensitive and he toured with that piano. One should be careful citing Horowitz as an example of proper hand positioning.

[The Real MC]

Anyone else want to nominate this for a Key Thread?

 

Hear!

[RandyFF]

But the one thing I really learned from Albert was that its not just about your FINGERS but that your WRISTS are level with the keys so that ALL hand and arm muscles can be properly engaged.

 

This is excellent, I've often wondered about the height of my hands relative to the keybed, and this makes a ton of sense. Though there's also the question of the height of the elbow relative to the wrist/hand.

[Outkaster]

Great and I have two female lead singers

 

As we say at work: don't fish in the company pond.

 

...wait you said TWO female singers...?

 

Yeah two of them........no one's happy.

[ChiefDanG]

If you wanna be happy as long as you linger

Never make a pretty woman your singer

So for my personal point of view

Get an ugly girl to sing for you

[Michael Wright]

Anyone else want to nominate this for a Key Thread?

 

Hear!

Hear!

[timwat]

One should be careful citing Horowitz as an example of proper hand positioning.

 

I believe the same caution would apply to emulating Glenn Gould.

 

Where have you gone, Dave Horne?

Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you

woo woo woo

[Bill H.]

Anyone else want to nominate this for a Key Thread?

 

I vote no. Those in the forum who have been in position to advise young players will understand. It's been a fun read though - for those of us who have been through it all.

[jimkost2002]

But the one thing I really learned from Albert was that its not just about your FINGERS but that your WRISTS are level with the keys so that ALL hand and arm muscles can be properly engaged.

 

This is excellent, I've often wondered about the height of my hands relative to the keybed, and this makes a ton of sense. Though there's also the question of the height of the elbow relative to the wrist/hand.

 

the elbows take care of themselves. let then fall naturally once you alingn the hands properly.

the elbows are neither pulled in nor winged out

[JohnH]

Have a back up keyboard, don't rely on one. If it goes into the shop and you have a gig, you have nothing to play on. I told this to someone the other day and they got offended.

[Threadslayer]

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet but one consideration to take into account is that even if the older keys player is giving good advice, will the younger keys player be willing to listen to it?

An example would be "Don't hook up with the hot chick singer." Try telling that one to a horny 25 year old.

[El Lobo]

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet but one consideration to take into account is that even if the older keys player is giving good advice, will the younger keys player be willing to listen to it?

An example would be "Don't hook up with the hot chick singer." Try telling that one to a horny 25 year old.

This may be some of the most practical advice in this thread. But yeah, you'll never take this advice if you're young. You only learn by doing ... so to speak.

[Music Bird]

As a younger keyboard player Id say I dont really want a hot chick singer. I could care less as long as they sound good. Thats just stereotyping. And I would say to the other younguns out there, try your best to advertise for a band, you may find the perfect band mates if youre lucky, dont choose someone you hate to join your band, itll just make it worse, and even if you want to hire a pretty female singer, keep in mind to some of us (like me), looks dont really matter, you may find you hate her.

[The Real MC]

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet but one consideration to take into account is that even if the older keys player is giving good advice, will the younger keys player be willing to listen to it?

An example would be "Don't hook up with the hot chick singer." Try telling that one to a horny 25 year old.

This may be some of the most practical advice in this thread. But yeah, you'll never take this advice if you're young. You only learn by doing ... so to speak.

 

Under that logic, this thread is pointless as none of us should ever take the advice of our elders. Feel free to be doomed to repeat history.

[Threadslayer]

Speaking of logic...

How did you get from "...one consideration to take into account is..."

to

"...none of us should ever take the advice of our elders."

 

My point, which I tried to make clearly, was that the elder should consider his target audience when giving advice.

[The Real MC]

Speaking of logic...

How did you get from "...one consideration to take into account is..."

to

"...none of us should ever take the advice of our elders."

 

My point, which I tried to make clearly, was that the elder should consider his target audience when giving advice.

 

Years ago a bachelorette party came to our show and at the end of the night our 22 year old horny guitarist wanted the rest of the band to go back to their party. As BL I told him the bus leaves in half an hour, if he wants to dip his doodle then he can find another ride home. We had a loud argument but he wasn't moving this oak of an elder. BTW today he is happily married to the girlfriend he almost cheated on back then, has four daughters, and we are still friends.

 

It's one thing to consider your target audience. It's another thing to know how to confront it. And I'm not shy about calling them out.

[RandyFF]

But the one thing I really learned from Albert was that its not just about your FINGERS but that your WRISTS are level with the keys so that ALL hand and arm muscles can be properly engaged.

 

This is excellent, I've often wondered about the height of my hands relative to the keybed, and this makes a ton of sense. Though there's also the question of the height of the elbow relative to the wrist/hand.

 

the elbows take care of themselves. let then fall naturally once you alingn the hands properly.

the elbows are neither pulled in nor winged out

 

I didn't mean the elbows going in or out, I meant up or down. The wrists can be relatively flat, and the elbows up or down in relation to the wrists.

 

Perhaps you mean the wrists/forearms and elbows are flat?

 

 

[Threadslayer]

Speaking of logic...

How did you get from "...one consideration to take into account is..."

to

"...none of us should ever take the advice of our elders."

 

My point, which I tried to make clearly, was that the elder should consider his target audience when giving advice.

 

Years ago a bachelorette party came to our show and at the end of the night our 22 year old horny guitarist wanted the rest of the band to go back to their party. As BL I told him the bus leaves in half an hour, if he wants to dip his doodle then he can find another ride home. We had a loud argument but he wasn't moving this oak of an elder. BTW today he is happily married to the girlfriend he almost cheated on back then, has four daughters, and we are still friends.

 

It's one thing to consider your target audience. It's another thing to know how to confront it. And I'm not shy about calling them out.

Seems like we're talking about two different things, but no matter. I won't belabor the point.

 

cheers