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Casio Privia PX-S1000 ($600) and S3000 ($800)


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I think basic MIDI velocity range is 1-127

Is this now correct:

"High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88) gives controllers and instruments a velocity range of 0-16,000+, instead of the basic MIDI 0-127. Pianoteq is one of the few software instruments that respond to it" and only a few controllers transmit it.

 

Attn: Mike Martin

What is the PX-S3000's Midi Velocity range? What is the scan rate? And how many variation in the Grand Piano timbre are available to respond to high definition midi?

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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Mike Martin posted this at the Pianoworld forum:

"BOTH are two sensor actions. While I don't expect you to take my word for it, these new instruments especially the PX-S series perform better in almost every respect than the tri-sensor action found in previous models.

 

It seems to me that as long as the two sensors are fairly late in the key's travel, a good timing (sample) rate should keep things as responsive as a three-sensor arrangement, without sacrificing repeatability.

 

What I find more surprising is the need for more than 127 velocity gradations. I don't think I would ever be able to tell the difference between a velocity of 93 and a velocity of 92, not even in a recital of Romantic period music (the pinnacle of piano composition IMO).

-Tom Williams

{First Name} {at} AirNetworking {dot} com

PC4-7, PX-5S, AX-Edge, PC361

 

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The midi velocity resolution is only as important as the sound engines capability of delivering something we can hear. So, the number of velocity layers in the new Casios sample set would be important as well as the method of smoothly transitioning between them as well as the dynamic range of the DAC. Id be surprised if we could hear/feel 1600+ levels of velocity (resulting in audible volume and timbre changes) on these instruments - but it would be cool to know they are working toward using that data.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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Filter changes, how many steps on that scale when applied to each individual velocity step?

The player will "feel" the greater touch response scale, there will be a smoothness to it, a highly sensitive response that one might not be used to.

 

I can't count all the overtones I hear but I experience them, I notice a difference. Apply a filter range within every velocity step.

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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What Im saying is that it is highly likely that Casios tri-sensor tech is capable of delivering a LOT of data. But can the engine they are using translate all that data into hear-able, feel-able changes in volume and timbre at a 1:1 ratio? Probably not. Also, the velocity curve and how it delivers the volume and timbre changes are more important than the resolution. The right linear smooth so you dont get zipper noise.

 

Regardless - we agree that the goal is to play and sound like the fine acoustic instruments they aim to digitize. Quite a feat in any age.

 

As a side note, apparently the PX-5S does send MIDI CC#88 out when using as a controller. http://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/topic/7918-px-5s-transmitting-midi-controller-88-to-daw/

 

If you own Pianoteq Id by curious to see how that combo feels.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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It seems to me that as long as the two sensors are fairly late in the key's travel, a good timing (sample) rate should keep things as responsive as a three-sensor arrangement, without sacrificing repeatability.

I think the only thing a 3-sensor board can inherently do that a 2-sensor board cannot is let you restrike a note without silencing it first (while not using the sustain pedal), which is not something one often needs to do.

 

What I find more surprising is the need for more than 127 velocity gradations. I don't think I would ever be able to tell the difference between a velocity of 93 and a velocity of 92, not even in a recital of Romantic period music (the pinnacle of piano composition IMO).

The question would be whether you could tell the difference between 93 and 91, not 92. If you can ever tell the difference between two adjacent values (of the same sample), you don't have enough values.

 

I think 127 is probably enough for most cases, though. If each value represented a half db difference, that would give you a 63 dB dynamic range (speakers permitting) which I suspect is not exceeded by the dynamic range of an acoustic, and a half dB difference is probably not discernible by most people, even allowing for the fact that it could involve a slight change in timbre as well as volume (i.e. for modeled pianos).

 

The hard part might be mapping those 127 steps to correspond to the velocities that best approximate those relative values on an an actual piano, keeping in mind that decibels are logarithmic and not linear.

 

But I think a benefit of having more than 127 velocities might be more in adjusting velocity curves, e.g. people often choose "hard" or "soft to accommodate their own playing, and once you do that, you get more values on one end of the volume scale in exchange for fewer on the other.

 

The midi velocity resolution is only as important as the sound engines capability of delivering something we can hear. So, the number of velocity layers in the new Casios sample set would be important
I don't think that's a factor. 127 different-volume strikes of a single sample is not necessarily any more or less discernible than 127 different-volume strikes of a multi-velocity-layered sample, except that each layer shift provides for an additional point of discernible difference. (There's also the variable of processing... there have been single-sample pianos that used a velocity-controlled filter to alter the timbre with velocity.)

 

Id be surprised if we could hear/feel 1600+ levels of velocity (resulting in audible volume and timbre changes) on these instruments
The question is really only one of whether we can hear more than 127. Going from 1-byte (8-bit) to 2-byte (16-bit) resolution means going from 127 to 16000+, there is no way to program MIDI for something in between. So if you determine any benefit to having more than 127, then 16k is what you end up with as the next option. (And before anyone asks, 8-bit has 128 instead of 256 values because MIDI uses 7 of the bits for data, so in terms of MIDI data, the two possibilities are 7-bit and 14-bit.)

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I can't notice the individual differences in 127 shades of gray. But I can notice a difference between a Rembrandt print reproduced with 127 shades of gray vs the same print reproduced using 16,000 shades of gray.

 

db increases are algorithmic...

 

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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But, part of the magic that is a real piano comes from the physicality of playing it. If there's the least bit of latency, then that will result in a disconnect that will disappoint us, even though we may not even perceive it (the latency, not the disappointment.)

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=5897

 

Quote:

"marzzz wrote:

My personal take is that it adds a degree of randomness that exists in the real world- I don't think there is any human who has so much control that they can specifically utilize it, but that degree of randomness may make a performance that much more realistic; how much? That is the question. Pianoteq is especially the software that can take advantage of it, as opposed to multi-multi-multi sampled pianos.

 

music_guy wrote:

 

PianoTeq's model changes many factors between velocity layers, so PianoTeq may perform much better than Sampled VIs with High Resolution MIDI.

 

- For example, if a simple sampled VI changed just one factor, the "volume", and we assumed our "ears" can discern 1db, then 128 MIDI levels seems like overkill.

 

- But...PianoTeq is changing many "sound quality" factors beyond "volume". That additional information may allow our "ears" to appreciate many more MIDI levels.

 

On an acoustic piano, even if our hands can only differentiate between a few dozen velocities, we hear slightly different sound with every keystroke. These minute differences are not "haphazard" or "random" but rather physics at work. I think these small sonic differences are one reason acoustic pianos are so interesting to play.

 

If PianoTeq is changing more than just "volume" between MIDI levels, I speculate that we can differentiate between more than 128 MIDI levels. And that additional MIDI levels could provide improved playability.

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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"The 127 levels provided by standard midi were found to be inadequate, for they fail when the loudness has to be shaped sensitively in soft music: proceeding from a note with midi level 5, for instance, allows moving only to the neighbouring levels 6 or 4, a change of 20% or 25% respectively, which does not generally produce sounds sufficiently finely graduated for the desired artistic effect. Fortunately, the midi specifications have recently been extended with a high resolution velocity prefix providing 16,256 levels (numbered from 128 to 16,383), quite enough for the musical purpose."

 

That is taken from /MPR0074.pdf]"The reconstitution of historical piano recordings: Vladimir de Pachmann plays Chopin's Nocturne in E Minor", by Nigel Nettheim.. (That url itself includes the ']' character, so you'd have to cut and paste it.)

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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Posted by stubbsonic18-01-2019 00:08

https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=5897

 

"First, when we talk about velocity response, we need three main qualities: range, resolution and curve.

 

Though the affect of velocity on the sound is determined by the destination instrument, the velocity range of the controller is still an important part of the response experience. Though the output range is 1-127, I'm referring to the physical velocities that are mapped to those extremes of 1 and 127. I.e., what actual key-strike speed is considered a 1, and what actual key-strike speed is actually considered a 127. The lower extreme is an arbitrary decision by the designer, the upper extreme is limited by the scan rate.

 

If you think about your own physical interaction with a key, you can imagine your very softest possible note, and your very loudest possible note. If the controller takes your 20 softest values and assigns 1 to all of them, that's a loss of response. If your controller takes your 20 loudest values and assigns 127 to all of them, that's a loss of response.

 

An assumption that is being made in this thread is that most controllers provide 127 steps of velocity, which is most certainly NOT the case. Most keyboards are limited by slow scan rates (i.e., how frequently the keyboard scans for the two velocity switch contacts and measures the time between them). The slow scan rate causes some actual velocities quantized to a lower resolution, and many velocity values are simply unattainable.

 

Recently, Novation was touting scan rates of 10KHz for some of their recent keyboards. I don't know if that number solves everything, but it seems like the right approach.

 

Most keyboards will then sacrifice more of that already compromised resolution to give you a response curve.

 

I'd be happy if a keyboard let you define your truly fastest/hardest keystrike as 127 (and had some room above that, for very dynamic players), as well as setting your slowest/softest keystrike as a 1 (with room below that, as well). And, if the keyboard let you define a curve without sacrificing having full 127 step velocity. That is not, to my knowledge, even available in any commercial keyboard.

 

Our ability to hear differences in volume is very keen. We have an extraordinary range and resolution of hearing loudness differences. With typical velocity-to-amplitude applications, we most definitely can HEAR 127 steps of velocity. Create a MIDI track with series of 127 consecutive notes, playing quickly and steadily, incrementing the velocities by 1 per note. You will hear the notes steadily and smoothly crescendoing. If you decreased the resolution of that ramp to say 32 possible values, you would hear the 32 steps as the notes jumped to the next value.

 

And I've played cheaper keyboards with slow scan rates where I can feel a disconnect in the velocity response.

 

But if a keyboard gives you a wide range between a very very slow/soft strike, and a very very fast/hard strike, and gives you 127 steps between, even if you assign a curve, then this is sufficient. But that keyboard does not exist. With the possible exception of the aforementioned VAX77. I don't know the High Scan Rate Novation keyboards offer that kind of setting.

 

A keyboard that gives you 16,384 velocity values has plenty of resolution, but if it doesn't allow you to define a wide range between your slowest and fastest physical strikes, or letting you define the curve in a flexible way, this is not sufficient.

 

I agree that there is the random factor which shouldn't be undervalued. But also, there is value in just having a little overkill when it comes to the expressive parts of the instrument, especially given that our devices can handle the extra bandwidth it might require when we need it.""

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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Posted by Valouz

 

"dB is a logarithmic scale.

3 dB is twice louder than 1 dB

6 dB is twice louder than 3 dB

9 dB is twice louder than 6 dB

12 dB is twice louder than 9 db

15 dB is twice louder than 12 dB

And so on.

15 dB is already 32 times louder than 1 dB

20 dB is around 100 times louder than 1 dB

30 dB is around 1000 times louder than 1 dB

...

So sorry but no 120 dB does not mean 120 levels of sound...

I don't know exactly what is the maximum acoustic level of a piano but let say that is only (for the exercice) of 90 dB (80 dB it's a baby crying and 122 dB is the maximum of a full orchestra...).

So 90 dB is already 1 000 000 000 times louder than 1 dB.

After said this, that doesn't mean that the ear can distinguish

 

1 000 000 000 nuances of level between 1 and 90 dB.

It's said that for humans (i.e. feeling not science) it sounds twice louder every 10 dB.

So even with this very lower scale, 90 dB is already 512 différents levels.

It still does not mean that human can distinguish more than 128 different levels...

But no 120 dB does not mean 120 different levels..."

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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Forgetting all the tech stuff posted in this topic for moment.

 

I run PianoTeq in my rig, controlled by my PX-5S in High Res Midi.

 

My finger to ear connection (subjective) is wonderful, especially after taking the time to setup the velocity curve in PTeq.

 

My piano VSTs are:

PianoTeq

Steinway D

YC5

K2

U4

 

Native Intruments

The Grandeur

Alicias Keys

The Gentleman

 

All sound great. Running the same buffer for all, the edge goes to PianoTeq high res as far as feel and nuance.

Again, a subjective thing, but thats how my brain perceives things when I play.

David

Gig Rig:Casio Privia PX-5S | Yamaha MODX+ 6 | MacBook Pro 14" M1| Mainstage

 

 

 

 

 

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"The 127 levels provided by standard midi were found to be inadequate, for they fail when the loudness has to be shaped sensitively in soft music: proceeding from a note with midi level 5, for instance, allows moving only to the neighbouring levels 6 or 4, a change of 20% or 25% respectively, which does not generally produce sounds sufficiently finely graduated

No... MIDI allows for 127 levels of velocity, but they can be mapped any way a programmer wants. The fact that 5 is 25% greater than 4 is irrelevant. Velocity is determined by the time it takes between triggering sensor A and sensor B. A programer can take that figure and assign it however he wants, He does not have to make MIDI velocity 5 equal to 25% more actual velocity than MIDI velocity 4, he can adjust that curve however he wants in order to get the result he wants. If he wants MIDI velocity 5 to represent only 2% more actual velocity than MIDI velocity 4, he can do that.

 

As an aside, his basic math is wrong. While 6 is 20% more than 5, 4 is not 25% less than 5. (4 is 20% less than 5; 3.75 is 25% less than 5.)

 

Posted by Valouz

 

"sorry but no 120 dB does not mean 120 levels of sound...

There are an infinite number of levels of sound, you can always create smaller and smaller fractions. But even though decibels are logarithmic, humans generally still can't distinguish incremental sound differences of less than 1 dB. One way to look at it is that our ability to hear something as different is relative rather than absolute. So while, in a sense, the logarithmic curve implies a bigger difference between 90 dB and 91 dB then there is between 50 dB and 51 dB, in practice, as far as our hearing is concerned, there isn't, each essentially represents about the minimum difference we can reliably hear. So yes, for practical purposes, regardless of the logarithmic scale of it, it's reasonable to start from an assumption that humans would typically be able to discern no more than 120 levels of loudness between 0 dB and 120 dB. (And in fact, it will be less, because we are not as good at picking up very small differences at any extremes... i.e. we'd be better at noticing a 1 dB change in a 60 db 1 kHz tone than we would be at noticing a 1 dB change in something that was very low pitched, or very high pitched, or very quiet, or very loud.)

 

ETA: I'm not making any argument here either way about the value of having more than 127 levels... I'm just saying that the arguments about velocity 6 being 20% more than velocity 5 or there being a billion possible volumes between 1 dB and 90 dB are both really bad arguments, and basically just plain wrong.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Talking about the PX-5s sucessor. Are these PX-5s models usually more featured, with more controls, faders, knobs? more sounds?

 

I know that nobody really knows till Casio release the PX5-S sucessor..., but I just wanted to know what to expect from this future model.

Casio PX-S3000, Elektron Analog Keys, Elektron Octatrack, Synthstrom Deluge, Eurorack 6U, Yamaha DXR10

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Talking about the PX-5s sucessor. Are these PX-5s models usually more featured, with more controls, faders, knobs? more sounds?

There's not really a "usually" since there's only been one. ;-) Okay, the PX-5S was in effect the second in the line, as a successor to the PX-3S, but it was still very different. For example, the 3 didn't have sliders/knobs and.only supported a single split point instead of three (or more for internal sounds, if you use hexlayers). But the basic distinction has been that the series has MIDI controller features but no speakers, whereas all the other Privias have speakers but lack MIDI controller features. (I keep wishing for models that have both!) There is a good comparison of PX-5S to the top-of-line speakered model, PX560, at https://casiomusicgear.wordpress.com/2016/01/11/the-definitive-px-5s-vs-px-560-comparison/ but I would not assume that a future PX5S replacement would necessarily have every PX5S differentiating feature, or that it would lack every PX560 differentiating feature.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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[video:youtube]

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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[video:youtube]

 

Rudi reviews both the PX-S1000 and the PX-S3000!

 

Super slim, light-weight, and being able to run off only 6 x AA batteries make the new Casio PXS range of digital pianos the perfect answer for the gigging musician. But if you prefer to stay home, the high-quality sound and feel mean the PXS-1000 & PXS-3000 are just as comfortable in the lounge room as on the stage!

 

What's the keybed action like? PH4, RH3, or somewhere inbetween? Improvement over the other Casio models

[font:Arial Black]Rudi:[/font] You sort of hit it on the head, somewhere between Roland PHA4 and Korg RH3 :-) it feels really good and a definite improvement over previous (and other) Casio models.

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Still wishing that Casio label wasnt so prominent.

LOL, me too. Why do they do that? Casio isnt the only guilty one. Kurz, Kawai. . . just as bad. Might as well make them light up and blink.

I will get the optional stand and shove it against the wall, thatll show em.

Yamaha P515 & CK88, Pianoteq, Mainstage, iOS, assorted other stuff.

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LOL, me too. Why do they do that? Casio isnt the only guilty one. Kurz, Kawai. . . just as bad. Might as well make them light up and blink.

I will get the optional stand and shove it against the wall, thatll show em.

 

Don't forget Korg, whose giant logo on the Grandstage literally does light up and blink, in various colors. (Thankfully that can be disabled.)

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