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#2975121 - 02/11/19 12:42 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: BluMunk]
jimkost2002 Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 1265
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: BluMunk
Good thing that no one here has said that "classical music is racist."

I suggested that the reasons classical music sits at the apex of cultural respect are rooted in racism (and a lot of other isms too), which basically correlates to your second sentence, so I'm glad we agree on that front.

I am not suggesting that the genre itself is racist, nor would I even know what that meant.

I am also not suggesting that other art forms or genres don't have their own cultural baggage to come to terms with, or at least acknowledge. Of course they do.

I am also not suggesting that we throw away or stop loving classical music (or jazz, or southern rock, or whatever) just because there are things about their history that deserve scrutiny.

Also, until my post above, no one called anything "racist" in this thread except for you, RABid. I'm not sure what you're ranting against, but it's not any position that anyone has taken in this thread. But I'm sure all the observers who thought that Japan and India were racist-free appreciate the education.

Also, if you want to get sanctimonious about "getting dirty" and grouping people into "cesspools," maybe consider whether calling other posters ignorant and racist is the best position to stake out when calling for others to not use the dirty "r" word.

All art is contextual. Acknowledging and thinking about that context, good and bad, does not detract from the art, or mean the art is worthless. I'm not sure why the act of doing so strikes such a nerve.


Why does it strike a nerve ? Look up "Dynamic Projection"
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KC Island
#2975125 - 02/11/19 12:57 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: RABid]
BluMunk Online   content
Gold Member

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 770
Loc: Burlington, VT
I said I didn’t say “classical music is racist,” and then reiterated that I am saying that institutions that enshrine classical music have raciat and classist elements.

I then pointed out the irony of you mis-quoting me (or others) as calling “classical music racist”, accusing them (me) of wallowing in a “cesspool” by calling classical music racist (which I did not) when you yourself were the first person here to hurl that word, not at a poor defenseless musical genre, but at another poster to this forum.

Anyway, if it makes it any clearer, let me say: classical music is not racist. And you can quote me on that. Mozart’s piano concerto no 21 is not racist. Bach’s two part inventions are not racist. I couldn’t even make sense of the sentence “fur elise is racist.” It’s a nonsense sentence, and the sooner you realise it’s a strawman concept that you’ve invented the sooner you can let go of the illogic of your own invention.

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#2975127 - 02/11/19 01:04 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: BluMunk]
I-missRichardTee Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 7559
Loc: S. Ca. USA
This Fly on the KC wall.

CG Jung's observation, people do not have ideas, rather, ideas have people.... has never resonated more true for me than this nonsense thread.
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#2975129 - 02/11/19 01:09 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: Wastrel]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 3893
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Wastrel
I think it is a shame that you were made to feel that you HAD to apologize. Making a provocative statement to foster discourse doesn't indicate mental illness IMO.


Thank you. I was apologizing for pushing the discourse into an area whose response is already known to me to be both inevitable and bad here. That is sincere. This topic just doesn't work here, and I know that by now.

I'm happy to talk about this stuff via messenger. Saying it "out loud" here brings out the worst in people, as we are still seeing, and as anyone who saw Davedorfler's now-deleted message more than saw.
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#2975133 - 02/11/19 01:33 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: jimkost2002]
timwat Offline
Quite wealthy...spiritually
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Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 5860
Loc: Concord,CA,UNITED STATES
I'm not familiar with the term "dynamic projection" apart from mapping, but have heard of the principle of 'projection' in psychology (loosely defined, a defense mechanism of refusing certain negative attributes in yourself while attributing them to others). Perhaps we're talking about the same thing.

Back to the topic at hand (and perhaps this is an unwelcome beating of the proverbial horse), I can understand the premise that classical music (like other fine art forms) benefits in the US from substantial patronage commitments from the wealthy. Here in the SF Bay Area, folks like Mark and I are fortunate to enjoy the SF Symphony, the SF Ballet and the SF Opera. We also have a diverse, thriving theater community which requires substantial private funding too.

By definition, funding for these things (as well as jazz radio, now that I think of it) will come from people with discretionary income who value these institutions in their lives. The reasons these things are valuable to an individual or a family may take familiar forms, and they also may include a wide swath of more personal motives.

I'm not sure I'd describe the ongoing support of the arts in the SF Bay Area as either stubborn or ritualistic. Someone else gets to assign those pejoratives to other people's behavior. Me, I'm glad that some folks who can afford it persist (or, are stubborn?) to allow me to take my gorgeous wife to Bach and Mendelssohn on Friday for a belated Valentine's Day celebration.

More salient, I don't reach the conclusion that "unspoken nostalgia for the days of European (white) dominance over the rest of the free world" serves as a primary motive for the wealthy's support of our arts in the Bay Area. While I'm not wealthy, anecdotally I have enough wealthy friends and acquaintances to understand how class distinctions play heavily into worldview and value assessments (which then precipitate as patronage decisions).

For some, their family has ALWAYS supported these institutions ("It's what we do..."). For others, they have their own great history, experiences and love for certain forms ("As a little girl I dreamed of being a ballerina..."). Yet others get philosophical (and class-bound?) about it ("The fine arts keeps the intellectual and cultural life of the Bay Area healthy...").

At its worst, is this last example 'classist' and/or 'elitist'? I guess it could be; I don't hear it that way. But I guess I can see how someone could smell that. Especially if that's the magnifying glass you use. In other words, I tend to think people arrive at that assessment IF THAT'S THE WORLDVIEW YOU USE, the prior model or analog you tend to use in analyzing social and cultural phenomena.

And I get how that happens. I can understand since race and music is the research and career focus of MOI's life how the lenses we use to refract and understand our work becomes the lenses we use to refract and understand our world. I'm guilty as charged - my career and teaching focus in business is typically the first arrow I pull from my quiver to look at an event, a news story or a challenge.

Where I choose to pause is in assigning motives to people (or whole swaths of people) absent their own comments on why they made certain choices.

All that being said, if MOI's copious research in race and music provided evidence of such commentary, I understand how he reached his conclusions.

I just haven't encountered it, and rather I've run across other sorts of reasons why my friends and acquaintances persist in their support of the arts here in my neck of the woods.

Tim
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#2975135 - 02/11/19 01:47 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: timwat]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 3893
Loc: California
Thanks for the input, Tim.

I can promise that the underlying point is not a case of "when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail." More a case of, once you discover your own worldview has been either wrong or incomplete, tracking down the "rest of the story" becomes an obsession for some. I'm one of those.

In other words, it wasn't, "topic first then conclusion." It was a mind-opening discovery (in my case regarding our utterly incorrect understanding of the development of the blues), then a commitment to keep going deeper (which led to enrolling in the doctoral program). If you keep asking "why," you get to some interesting places.

More via messenger if you wish or after teaching.
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#2975138 - 02/11/19 01:58 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: MathOfInsects]
Ockeghem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/18
Posts: 48
Loc: Virginia
O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!
Sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen
und freudenvollere!

Freude, schöner Götterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlischer, Dein Heiligtum!
Deine Zauber binden wieder,
Was die Mode streng geteilt;
Alle Menschen werden Brüder,
Wo Dein sanfter Flügel weilt.
(u.s.w)

This passage actually has a lot to do with racism...but not with condoning it.

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#2975146 - 02/11/19 02:44 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: Ockeghem]
David Emm Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 09/14/12
Posts: 1422
Loc: Solder Huffer's Gulch
This thread is the whiteist thing I've seen since John Denver died.
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#2975149 - 02/11/19 02:55 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: MathOfInsects]
I-missRichardTee Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 7559
Loc: S. Ca. USA
[i][/i]
Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
Thanks for the input, Tim.

I can promise that the underlying point is not a case of "when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail." More a case of, once you discover your own worldview has been either wrong or incomplete, tracking down the "rest of the story" becomes an obsession for some. I'm one of those.


My world view is music, separated from the proposed (by often pompous academics) opinions of others; is how I roll. I do not care nor think about the social conditions that were in play, when I hear Bach or Charlie Parker. Music lifts ignorant men ( whether educated or not) out of their fashionable theories and into another world. Or maybe I should rephrase that last sentence ... Music lifts the Composers and artists out of their opinions while they are focussed on The Music Itself.
The current trends in academia are revolting to me... and I cannot help but think that those ideas found today in academia seep into the minds of appreciators of the Music.
I entirely reject the academics abstruse ideas... for me, it is soully the Music. Aka the thing itself.
I NEED Classical Music. period.
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#2975173 - 02/11/19 04:28 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: I-missRichardTee]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 3893
Loc: California
IMRT, I am not sure why you feel the need to paint the entire field of "academics" with the same brush, nor what you are referring to as the "current" trends in academia, but I can promise you that most of the people I have met either coming through the program or on faculty have an expansive, almost boundless love of music. Fanboys and fangirls supreme. In our department are literally some of the world's premiere players and composers--people I knew about as gods and legends back in NY before I ever even considered another degree. Pulitzer winners and MacArthur Genius recipients. Founding members of the AACM. Jazz legends. Guys who play Lincoln Center. A two-time Grammy winner. These guys don't relinquish their talent, career, and fanatical love, when they take a job at a university. They just get health insurance for it.

Yeesh. As you have been known to say: "Lighten up, Francis."
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#2975184 - 02/11/19 05:39 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: Markyboard]
GovernorSilver Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 5951
Loc: Washington DC
Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Book Link

This is a short read, a bit annoying at times, repetitive but still well worth it imo. Some will like it, some won't. I'm finding that it answers a number of questions for me personally including why I find myself at odds and so annoyed with the general concert/show going experience (it's not you, it's me freak). That and the concept of music's purposes and challenging the idea that "valid" music comes down to our subjective tastes.






Thanks, Mark! Added to my Amazon shopping list.

I've got a good friend who alerts me whenever there's a Mahler symphony performance coming up and teaches me a bit about it. I've seen 3 with him now, the first one being #6 which is the one with the hammer. That's still my favorite show so far, because of the hammer. We've also gone to shows at Library of Congress where the classical programming has been adventurous. That's where I caught performances of Messaien's Vingt Regards sur l'enfant-Jésus, Ethel String Quartet, Arditti Quartet playing Beethoven's more avant-sounding quartets, John Cage stuff, etc.

When I was younger I didn't understand why some jazz musos included classical music in their personal practice, but I think I get it a little more now.

Ever watch Mozart in the Jungle? The RIkers Island episode was aweome imo.

One of the weirder depictions of classical composers I've seen - weirder than the Bill & Ted movies:

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#2975189 - 02/11/19 06:15 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: GovernorSilver]
CowboyNQ Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 06/14/15
Posts: 1179
Loc: Adelaide, Australia
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver
One of the weirder depictions of classical composers I've seen - weirder than the Bill & Ted movies:

My copy of the book is en route as we speak.

Assuming it navigates its way to the Antipodes safely after being buffeted by the wind and/or the waves (apologies Edward Gibbon), I'm going to be massively disappointed if it doesn't play out pretty much exactly like that Anime clip.

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#2975201 - 02/11/19 07:43 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: MathOfInsects]
I-missRichardTee Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 7559
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
IMRT, I am not sure why you feel the need to paint the entire field of "academics" with the same brush, nor what you are referring to as the "current" trends in academia, but I can promise you that most of the people I have met either coming through the program or on faculty have an expansive, almost boundless love of music. Fanboys and fangirls supreme. In our department are literally some of the world's premiere players and composers--people I knew about as gods and legends back in NY before I ever even considered another degree. Pulitzer winners and MacArthur Genius recipients. Founding members of the AACM. Jazz legends. Guys who play Lincoln Center. A two-time Grammy winner. These guys don't relinquish their talent, career, and fanatical love, when they take a job at a university. They just get health insurance for it.

Yeesh. As you have been known to say: "Lighten up, Francis."


Dear Sergeant Hulka, I am not lightening up. Cold dead hands is more apt. The fact you are oblivious to what I am referring to in academia is an indicator of your Archie Bunker blinders. The topic is verbotten here, and has nothing to do with keyboards.


Edited by I-missRichardTee (02/11/19 07:51 PM)
_________________________
You don’t have ideas, ideas have you
We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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#2975209 - 02/11/19 08:10 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Tom Williams Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 01/04/14
Posts: 1193
Loc: West Virginia
I try keep my vulgarities offline, but in the case of this whole "whiteness of classical music" thread I feel compelled to call bullshit.

If I write any more I fear will descend rather quickly into ad hominems against those with whom I disagree.
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#2975211 - 02/11/19 08:16 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: Tom Williams]
MathOfInsects Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 3893
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Tom Williams
I try keep my vulgarities offline, but in the case of this whole "whiteness of classical music" thread I feel compelled to call bullshit.

If I write any more I fear will descend rather quickly into ad hominems against those with whom I disagree.


Didn't you already call me stupid, or something similar?

That is not a good encapsulization of the position I described, nor a thing I think or know. But the fact that it prompts this kind of reaction in otherwise-friends, suggests there is at least an element worth asking about in there. No?
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#2975221 - 02/11/19 08:40 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: MathOfInsects]
Tom Williams Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 01/04/14
Posts: 1193
Loc: West Virginia
Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
Didn't you already call me stupid, or something similar?
Only hypothetically, since I obviously wasn't in the room full of friends at the time. (Okay, mea culpa, I would have called you stupid had I been there. Please accept my hypothetical apology. smile )

In this later post, I wasn't referring to your rhetoric so much as that of a later poster who posited that dressing up nicely to perform in an orchestra is somehow indicative of Caucasian bigotry.
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#2975225 - 02/11/19 08:47 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: MathOfInsects]
ChiefDanG Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/20/13
Posts: 430
Loc: Nashville, TN
Who needs classical music?
Everybody. I hope it's around as long as the human race.


Now, back to our show - as a man stuck in the past trades insults with a man in an ivory tower, and all trying to get the whole thread deleted.

Anybody ever like classical themes worked into pop songs? I thought ELO's Roll Over Beethoven was clever and entertaining . And what was the fast-paced Jesu, Joy of Mans Desiring ? Something like Appollo 99 ?
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#2975267 - 02/12/19 05:06 AM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: timwat]
jimkost2002 Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 1265
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Originally Posted By: timwat
I'm not familiar with the term "dynamic projection" apart from mapping, but have heard of the principle of 'projection' in psychology (loosely defined, a defense mechanism of refusing certain negative attributes in yourself while attributing them to others). Perhaps we're talking about the same thing.

Tim


Yes, Tim, you are correct. We are talking about the same thing here.

I really appreciate your thoughtful response as well as your posts in general.
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#2975272 - 02/12/19 05:39 AM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: Tom Williams]
BluMunk Online   content
Gold Member

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 770
Loc: Burlington, VT
Originally Posted By: Tom Williams
I wasn't referring to your rhetoric so much as that of a later poster who posited that dressing up nicely to perform in an orchestra is somehow indicative of Caucasian bigotry.



Why do you insist, like others, on putting words in my mouth that I did not say (type)?

The requirement to spend money on an expensive uniform in order to get access to an education in classical music is a barrier to access that has nothing to do with the music itself, but with the institutions that provide a home for most classical music education and performance around the world. I think that's more about classism than racism (though those two are certainly intertwined in most circumstances).

I am a scholarship judge for high school pianists, and I am required to rank them lower if they don't dress "appropriately". I find that requirement distasteful. Someone might play less well than someone else but win the scholarship because of their respective outfit choices.

But at any rate, I'm outta this thread. I'm a little sick of having to argue out of positions I did not take, and I'm disheartened that for many here disagreement on this issue so quickly took the form of name-calling. Why "I couldn't disagree more" wasn't enough, I'm not sure.

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#2975278 - 02/12/19 06:09 AM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: BluMunk]
Markay Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 3265
Loc: Australia
Anyone reading this thread would think that music started in Europe 400 years ago.

Having visited central Australia and experienced first Australians performing their music, on their instruments, music about the the land we were sitting on, originally composed 40,000 to 60,000 years ago, a very moving experience for me, makes this debate seem like a discussion about who did what to whom last week.
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#2975291 - 02/12/19 07:06 AM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: ChiefDanG]
Wastrel Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/09
Posts: 2828
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: ChiefDanG

Now, back to our show - as a man stuck in the past trades insults with a man in an ivory tower, and all trying to get the whole thread deleted.

I think it's fascinating to watch otherwise reasonable people resolutely missing each other's points...
Fight on!
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#2975303 - 02/12/19 07:50 AM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: Wastrel]
ProfD Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 9907
Loc: Wash DC Area
I definitely understand MOI's perspective. It's a tough pill to swallow. Even he know it's a proverbial can of worms.

As evidenced by the course of this thread, there is a reason politics and religion are off limits.

There are some harsh realities human beings would rather not address. We'll get there eventually.

In the meantime, listen to whatever music floats your boat. When time permits, check the history. cool
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#2975304 - 02/12/19 07:54 AM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: ProfD]
Synthoid Offline
10k Club

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 10898
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Originally Posted By: ProfD
In the meantime, listen to whatever music floats your boat.


thu

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#2975342 - 02/12/19 10:43 AM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: Synthoid]
J_tour Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 667
Loc: PDX, OR
Originally Posted By: Synthoid
Originally Posted By: ProfD
In the meantime, listen to whatever music floats your boat.


thu



If it can be improvised by musicians, or reproduced by apprentices, or, in the very rare cases of some eccentric composers who have no knowledge of tradition, then, yes, one should get the music one deserves.

There is not a single good musician or composer in the world who is incapable of improvising.

That's one of the best reasons to listen to Western art music — to see how it is possible to create and to work within the tradition.

If I'm wrong, I will go down on Boys in Sync personally on videotape.

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#2975347 - 02/12/19 11:02 AM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: J_tour]
JerryA Offline
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Registered: 08/02/00
Posts: 7366
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: J_tour

There is not a single good musician or composer in the world who is incapable of improvising.


Personally, I like to think that many of the classical performers who say they "can't improvise" just a need a little taste of possibility. They perch trembling at the edge of the water like ducklings, unaware of the potential within themselves.

One reason I love listening to classical organ, it because at least in this one sphere, the ducklings dive in regularly, sometimes more, sometimes less. ...

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#2975356 - 02/12/19 11:33 AM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: JerryA]
Marzzz Online   content
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#2975384 - 02/12/19 01:43 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: Wastrel]
I-missRichardTee Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 7559
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: Wastrel
Originally Posted By: ChiefDanG

Now, back to our show - as a man stuck in the past trades insults with a man in an ivory tower, and all trying to get the whole thread deleted.

I think it's fascinating to watch otherwise reasonable people resolutely missing each other's points...
Fight on!


PM coming your way.
_________________________
You don’t have ideas, ideas have you
We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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#2975400 - 02/12/19 02:18 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: Markay]
Bobadohshe Offline
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Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 6028
Loc: San Diego / Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Markay
Anyone reading this thread would think that music started in Europe 400 years ago.

Having visited central Australia and experienced first Australians performing their music, on their instruments, music about the the land we were sitting on, originally composed 40,000 to 60,000 years ago, a very moving experience for me, makes this debate seem like a discussion about who did what to whom last week.


I'd say that's part of MOIs point.
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#2975410 - 02/12/19 03:09 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: Bobadohshe]
I-missRichardTee Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 7559
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Bobby , yes, "PART".
_________________________
You don’t have ideas, ideas have you
We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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#2975445 - 02/12/19 08:38 PM Re: Who Needs Classical Music? [Re: JerryA]
J_tour Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 667
Loc: PDX, OR
Originally Posted By: JerryA
Originally Posted By: J_tour

There is not a single good musician or composer in the world who is incapable of improvising.


Personally, I like to think that many of the classical performers who say they "can't improvise" just a need a little taste of possibility. They perch trembling at the edge of the water like ducklings, unaware of the potential within themselves.

One reason I love listening to classical organ, it because at least in this one sphere, the ducklings dive in regularly, sometimes more, sometimes less. ...


I fully agree.

If I had to guess, it's just a problem of education — it's hard to read and remember complicated music in the Western Art music tradition. But it's arguably harder to understand why or how some of the music sounds good.

And, no, I'm not claiming to be any better than anyone else. It's a goal to strive for, to become a good musician, rather than just copying fly-shit off a page.

Yes, it is funny that organists are expected to improvise, as a matter of course, and that pianists these days...well, they have their hands full just doing concert études and so on.

If I were to guess, it's same idea as what you said: just not enough hours in the day, and people get big applause for recreating various things

And in "classical" music, it's convenient: there's a lot of fantastic music, and no shortage of people who know how to play it.

I don't think it's irrelevant that there are a comparatively few number of interpreters who understand the music, though: I'd be shocked if anyone who understands the structure of a piece weren't able to at least make a little pastiche in the style of so-and-so composer.

Well, there's marketing and the big labels putting people out there, but that's another thing.

Hell, I can do it and I'm no good at "concert repertoire," beyond like ABRSM 8. It may suck, but a big ego and a willingness to try helps.

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